Falklands will not solve Argentina's woes

[glyndowers heir]

Us Brits need to teech them Argentians whos the boss is.

Are you volunteering to go and do this on the ground?

I believe several of my colleagues in all 3 services did just that in the 80's and I would far rather see a negotiated settlement including sharing resources than to have yet another generation of lads on either side tear into each other.

Its funny how the biggest pacifists are usually ex military whilst the biggest blowhards aren't!

I like airburst. Its good for getting rid of a city and giving its neighbours a dam good sun tan.

Get back to your computer games, the reality of the things you speak about is far too complex for you

I would like to point out to the world that Fortunately this individual does not speak for the majority in the UK and that he is unlikely to have much say in the deployment of the UKs Strategic Nuclear deterrent.

Edited February 22, 2010 by glyndowers heir

[Alien Being]

Are you volunteering to go and do this on the ground?

I believe several of my colleagues in all 3 services did just that in the 80's and I would far rather see a negotiated settlement including sharing resources than to have yet another generation of lads on either side tear into each other.

Its funny how the biggest pacifists are usually ex military whilst the biggest blowhards aren't!

Get back to your computer games, the reality of the things you speak about is far too complex for you

I would like to point out to the world that Fortunately this individual does not speak for the majority in the UK and that he is unlikely to have much say in the deployment of the UKs Strategic Nuclear deterrent.

Why share the oil its ours not theres.

They wont attack us they are scared of Britain. We sent a nuke sub to their waters last time. I think if they do attack us as its the second time we should deploy our detterant.

[glyndowers heir]

name='Alien Being' date='21 February 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1266795330' post='3298963']

Tritium decays fast.

Its also only useful to assist in the nuclear detonation process of multi stage weapons, not much use as a prime component.

Those tritium plants produce materials for glow lights, fire/smoke alarms and medical treatments

No waiting centuries before you move in to Argentinas land.

So this has now escalated from protecting British interests to a full scale invasion of Argentina following nuclear bombardment?

Double face palm with a triple back sumersault!

Edited February 22, 2010 by glyndowers heir

[GreyWeather]

So this has now escalated from protecting British interests to a full scale invasion of Argentina following nuclear bombardment?

Double face palm with a triple back sumersault!

Why, we'll be doing what we do EVERY night! Pinky, we'll take over the WORLD!

[Mekorig]

Its also only useful to assist in the nuclear detonation process of multi stage weapons, not much use as a prime component.

Those tritium plants produce materials for glow lights, fire/smoke alarms and medical treatments

So this has now escalated from protecting British interests to a full scale invasion of Argentina following nuclear bombardment?

Double face palm with a triple back sumersault!

glyndowers heir, i understand you. We have our share of nationalistic armchair general morons like Alien Being too. Luckly, their are a tiny minority.

[TheResearcher]

You are just simply wrong. There were an Argentinian colony, with people and a governor, that were attacked, first by an USA ship, and later exiled by UK forces. We were already there when the UK came and get us out of there. It is our right to reclaim what is ours.

Brilliant, we have a real Argie here. I'm glad you don't fit the stereotype

The situation with all the different colonisers and settlements in history is complex, but it is British now and has been for a long time. It is not your right to reclaim the islands; if you lot try it again you'll get beaten, again.

[stevewinn]

Mekorig, what dates were the islands under the direct control of Argentina?

[Space Commander Travis]

You are just simply wrong. There were an Argentinian colony, with people and a governor, that were attacked, first by an USA ship, and later exiled by UK forces. We were already there when the UK came and get us out of there. It is our right to reclaim what is ours.

There was no one living on the Falklands when they were first discovered by Europeans. In fact, according to our friends at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, it was the French who first colonised it. A British explorer planted his flag on part of it in 1765, then the Spanish ousted the British colony and started a colony of their own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_islands#History Argentina's claim, apart from geographical proximity, doesn't seem all that strong.

Edited February 23, 2010 by 747400

[Mekorig]

Let me find some free time (univ + work = makes Meko a tired boy), and i will try to make a resume of the early history of the islands.

[stevewinn]

this sabre rattling is getting out of Hand, the Argies are taking it to the UN like they did last time, and the time before that. but now we have others in south America getting involved, like the chump chavez, and a few others who are in attendance at the meeting in Mexico.

We need to send a clear message. we will protect the islands at all costs. so **** off or get a smack in the kipper.

The other day in the commons the question was asked about what is being done to protect the islands. besides the 1000+ troops, four Typhoon fighters, the reply was the Navy is to send HMS York type 42 Destroyer. HMS Edinburgh type 42 Destroyer. HMS Clyde (who is already there patrol boat.) RFA Wave Ruler. and three other support vessels who were not named. they also asked about submarines possibly being sent, but the minister couldn't comment. because its a secret to were our subs are sshhh....

[Alien Being]

Its also only useful to assist in the nuclear detonation process of multi stage weapons, not much use as a prime component.

Those tritium plants produce materials for glow lights, fire/smoke alarms and medical treatments

So this has now escalated from protecting British interests to a full scale invasion of Argentina following nuclear bombardment?

Double face palm with a triple back sumersault!

Tritium is the main ingredient of British Hydrogen bombs.

We have two secret plants producing it which arent marked on the map but we all know they are there just like you lot know about area 51.

[Alien Being]

this sabre rattling is getting out of Hand, the Argies are taking it to the UN like they did last time, and the time before that. but now we have others in south America getting involved, like the chump chavez, and a few others who are in attendance at the meeting in Mexico.

We need to send a clear message. we will protect the islands at all costs. so **** off or get a smack in the kipper.

The other day in the commons the question was asked about what is being done to protect the islands. besides the 1000+ troops, four Typhoon fighters, the reply was the Navy is to send HMS York type 42 Destroyer. HMS Edinburgh type 42 Destroyer. HMS Clyde (who is already there patrol boat.) RFA Wave Ruler. and three other support vessels who were not named. they also asked about submarines possibly being sent, but the minister couldn't comment. because its a secret to were our subs are sshhh....

I hope they are stupid enough to try it.

Bring it on Argies.

[Runa86]

Mekorig, what dates were the islands under the direct control of Argentina?

One could say from 1816 (the independence of Argentina, when the county inherited the rights over Spain over Malvinas, Islas Georgias y Sandwich del Sur from Spain)to 1833. Military envoys were sent there periodically.

Chronologically up to 1833:

1740: Spanish and British ships clash over the Falklands/Malvinas.

1764: the French arrive. Build a settlement.( Also, first settlement ever to be build)

1766: the Spanish claim the French settlement is infringing Spain's rights over the islands. France recognizes Spanish sovereignty. Spain then establishes the Gobernación de las Islas Malvinas (it was managed from Buenos Aires). In the same year, an English settlement is built in Port Egmont.

1770: The Spanish kick the British out from Port Egmon. In 1771 the British are allowed to return to the Islands.

1774: the British unilaterally withdraw from many of the settlements.

1776: the British leave the Islands completely.

1776 to 1811: Spain has settlements in Malvinas (and Britan is OK with this).

1790: the Nootka Convention: Spain and Britain sign a treaty. In its ninth article:

"... quedaba acordado respecto de las costas orientales y occidentales de Sur América y de las islas adyacentes, que los respectivos súbditos no formaran en el futuro ningún establecimiento en las partes de la costa situada al sur de las partes de la misma costa y de las islas adyacentes ya ocupadas por España; queda entendido que los mencionados súbditos respectivos retendrán la libertad de desembarcar en las costas e islas que allí se encuentren con propósitos vinculados a sus pesquerías y erección de refugios y otras estructuras temporarias que sirvan a esos objetivos..."

rough translation: whenever in South American coasts and islands Spanish had jurisdiction and presence (both on the Eastern and Western end), Britan was to never build permanent settlements or military posts. Remember that Britain had left the Islands 14 years earlier. There was only Spanish presence by now in Malvinas. If Britan ships arrived on the shores of a territory already occupied by Spain, the treaty said, it was to conduct business only. It is implicit that Britain recognizes Spanish sovereignty on Malvinas and that Spain has rights over her islands to do with them as she saw fit.

1816: Independence of Argentina. Since the Malvinas/Falklands were under the jurisdiction of El Virreinato del Río de la Plata and that was the area that gained independence, the Islands become part of the newly created Argentina.

1820: the Argentinan flag is hoisted for the first time on the Islands.

1825: Britain recognizes Argentinian as an independent country in its entirety. It would seem that in 1825 Britain fully recognized Malvinas as Argentinian.

A decrete from June 1829 said:

"Cuando por la gloriosa revolución del 25 de mayo de 1810 se separaron estas provincias de la dominación de la metrópolis,la España tenía una posesión material en las Islas Malvinas,y de todas las demás que rodean al Cabo de Hornos, incluso la que se conoce bajo la denominación de Tierra del Fuego, hallándose justificada aquella posesión por el derecho del primer ocupante, por el consentimiento de las principales potencias marítimas de Europa y por la adyacencia de estas islas al continente que formaba el Virreinato de Buenos Aires,de cuyo gobierno dependían..."

Simply put, by 1810- during the May Revolution in Argentina- the main European powers reconized Malvinas as Spanish.

1829: The British got their memory back and after recognizing Malvinas as Argentinian, they recollected having been there by 1771 and leaving plaque of their sovereignty of the Islands by 1776... 10 years after the Spanish had already established administrative rights over the Islands.

1833: The British invade. Throw away the Argentinian flag and hoist their own.

[Mekorig]

this sabre rattling is getting out of Hand, the Argies are taking it to the UN like they did last time, and the time before that. but now we have others in south America getting involved, like the chump chavez, and a few others who are in attendance at the meeting in Mexico.

In fact, from the Argentine side things are mostly quiet. Aside that trying to fix the problem in the UN like a civilized country, there are not plans to make any kind of aggression to the UK or the Malvinas/Falklands, just enforce our right in the international law in our EEZ.

What i am seeing is the worrisome desinformation the UK newspapers are feeding to the population. The other day The Sun put the toal strenght of the "dangerous Argentine Aire Force" in 244 craft. Yes, if you count every thing that can fly, even the Cessnass and paper planes, the deactivated planes, the operative and the combat ready ones. They are making a monsters of a mouse.

We need to send a clear message. we will protect the islands at all costs. so **** off or get a smack in the kipper.

The other day in the commons the question was asked about what is being done to protect the islands. besides the 1000+ troops, four Typhoon fighters, the reply was the Navy is to send HMS York type 42 Destroyer. HMS Edinburgh type 42 Destroyer. HMS Clyde (who is already there patrol boat.) RFA Wave Ruler. and three other support vessels who were not named. they also asked about submarines possibly being sent, but the minister couldn't comment. because its a secret to were our subs are sshhh....

Send your entire fleet if you want. Argentina will not make a military aggression here. We will remain inside the international law, and the resources that it gives to us, like putting econocmi pressure in the companies that have interest in the Argentina and the oil exploration company, as well, inspecting ships in our sea that get in or from the Malvinas/Falklands.

PD: Do not mind Chavez, he is like that drunk and loud cousin you are a little ashamed off, but he is still family. Be worried of Brazil. They are becoming a power in their own right, they are modernizing their armed forces, and do not like the British prescence in the Atlantic, neither the Malvinas/Falklands nor Ascencion or Saint Helena.

[stevewinn]

thanks for the reply runa86. but when you say invade in 1833. didn't we just turn up without any fighting because the island were uninhabited, then we proceeded to replace the flag and send the Argentine flag back by first class post with a covering letter?

Mekorig. i wouldn't take to much notice of the Sun news paper its always been a **** paper.

in truth i think this situation will just blow over. nothing will come of it,

[Space Commander Travis]

Once again, Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, is a useful source of everything. Inventory of the Fuerza Aérea Argentina

20 Skyhawks and about a dozen Mirages, it seems, unless you still count the old Pucará.

[Guardsman Bass]

In fact, from the Argentine side things are mostly quiet. Aside that trying to fix the problem in the UN like a civilized country, there are not plans to make any kind of aggression to the UK or the Malvinas/Falklands, just enforce our right in the international law in our EEZ.

Your "right"? The Falklands have been British for 177 years (before which they had no permanent inhabitants, and I count actual habitation as being more valid than an empty land claim), have a British population (actual British, by the way) that has zero desire to be part of Argentina, and the British have shown they have and can control the islands. Argentina needs to accept that and move on - you don't see Mexico b****ing and running to the UN about the Treaty of Hidalgo, and they lost much more than some barren islands in 1848.

What i am seeing is the worrisome desinformation the UK newspapers are feeding to the population. The other day The Sun put the toal strenght of the "dangerous Argentine Aire Force" in 244 craft. Yes, if you count every thing that can fly, even the Cessnass and paper planes, the deactivated planes, the operative and the combat ready ones. They are making a monsters of a mouse.

Exactly. A decaying British RN drove out the Argentinian military in 1982 - with the much better force right now (plus the significantly larger and better equipped garrison on the island), it would be a bloody slaughter.

Not to mention that this time, the US would intervene - on the British side - lest the British start pulling troops out of Afghanistan. They only didn't intervene in 1982 because Argentina was ostensibly an American ally, and even then Reagan did everything possible for the Brits short of intervention.

Send your entire fleet if you want. Argentina will not make a military aggression here. We will remain inside the international law, and the resources that it gives to us, like putting econocmi pressure in the companies that have interest in the Argentina and the oil exploration company, as well, inspecting ships in our sea that get in or from the Malvinas/Falklands.

And the British will ignore that, as they should. The funny thing is, if Kirchner and friends weren't running off to the UN to b**** about it, the British might actually cut them a piece of the eventual oil pie for not interfering with traffic to the islands.

PD: Do not mind Chavez, he is like that drunk and loud cousin you are a little ashamed off, but he is still family. Be worried of Brazil. They are becoming a power in their own right, they are modernizing their armed forces, and do not like the British prescence in the Atlantic, neither the Malvinas/Falklands nor Ascencion or Saint Helena.

There's nothing they can do about it. As I mentioned, if Argentina or any other such state made a go at the Falklands this time around, the US would get involved. The Brazilians might consider the British beatable, but the US Navy?

As for Chavez, well, if the US claimed the Earth was round and some Latin American country claimed it was flat, Chavez would say the world was flat, and accuse the US of being Imperialistic for forcing its explanation on others.

[Runa86]

thanks for the reply runa86. but when you say invade in 1833. didn't we just turn up without any fighting because the island were uninhabited, then we proceeded to replace the flag and send the Argentine flag back by first class post with a covering letter?

Juan Esteban Mestivier was the governor in the Islands since of course, business had to be supervised, etc. Just like they are not overpopulated now, the Islands were not overpopulated then.

It was said of the islands:

"the whole of the population consisting of about forty persons, with the exception of some gauchos, or cowboys who were encamped in the interior."

[Mekorig]

Juan Esteban Mestivier was the governor in the Islands since of course, business had to be supervised, etc. Just like they are not overpopulated now, the Islands were not overpopulated then.

It was said of the islands:

"the whole of the population consisting of about forty persons, with the exception of some gauchos, or cowboys who were encamped in the interior."

That was a note from the USS Lexington, the one that attacked first Puerto Soledad. The population was 124:

30 blackman

34 porteños

28 english speaking rioplatenses

7 germans

aprox 25 garrison soldiers

The USA ship attacked because 3 of heir whalers were detained after beign seized by illegal hunting on the islands. The Lexington carried most of the population back to Montevideo. Argentina shortly sended more garrison men to Puerto Soledad, the same the UK took prisioner when invade the islands on 1833. In fact, there was shortly a sublevation incited by some gauchos that the british have to put down some 5 months later. The UK had some problems with the USA because of illegal whaling again in the 1850`s.

So, the islands weren`t empty in 1833 when the UK invaded.

BTW, the first kids born on malvinas/Falklands were Argentine, included Vernet daughter.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Mekorig

[Guardsman Bass]

So, the islands weren`t empty in 1833 when the UK invaded.

Fine, they had a token population. The question is, after 177 years of British rule and a British population, why should we care? As I mentioned above, Mexico lost far more later on, yet you don't see them b****ing and running to the UN about the American southwest. For that matter, unless you're indigenous, your ancestors exterminated most of the natives in Argentina and took their land, but nobody takes claims that modern Argentinians should give it all back seriously.

[Space Commander Travis]

That was a note from the USS Lexington, the one that attacked first Puerto Soledad. The population was 124:

30 blackman

34 porteños

28 english speaking rioplatenses

7 germans

aprox 25 garrison soldiers

The USA ship attacked because 3 of heir whalers were detained after beign seized by illegal hunting on the islands. The Lexington carried most of the population back to Montevideo. Argentina shortly sended more garrison men to Puerto Soledad, the same the UK took prisioner when invade the islands on 1833. In fact, there was shortly a sublevation incited by some gauchos that the british have to put down some 5 months later. The UK had some problems with the USA because of illegal whaling again in the 1850`s.

So, the islands weren`t empty in 1833 when the UK invaded.

BTW, the first kids born on malvinas/Falklands were Argentine, included Vernet daughter.

Have you read what was said earlier? There was no one on them when they were first discovered, the first people to plant a flag and build a habitation were the French, in 1764, and a British settlement was founded in 1766, around about the same time as the Spanish bought out the French colony. And following indepedence, Argentina (as Argentina) only founded a colony in 1828. The manifest of the USS Lexington is neither here nor there.

[hetrodoxly]

That was a note from the USS Lexington, the one that attacked first Puerto Soledad. The population was 124:

30 blackman

34 porteños

28 english speaking rioplatenses

7 germans

aprox 25 garrison soldiers

The USA ship attacked because 3 of heir whalers were detained after beign seized by illegal hunting on the islands. The Lexington carried most of the population back to Montevideo. Argentina shortly sended more garrison men to Puerto Soledad, the same the UK took prisioner when invade the islands on 1833. In fact, there was shortly a sublevation incited by some gauchos that the british have to put down some 5 months later. The UK had some problems with the USA because of illegal whaling again in the 1850`s.

So, the islands weren`t empty in 1833 when the UK invaded.

BTW, the first kids born on malvinas/Falklands were Argentine, included Vernet daughter.

Prior to 1982 there was some sympathy for Argentines position by many British MP's, can't you see it would be impossible for any UK government to give the islands to Argentina? the soldiers that fought there and the familles of those that died it would have all been for nothing.

[glyndowers heir]

Prior to 1982 there was some sympathy for Argentines position by many British MP's, can't you see it would be impossible for any UK government to give the islands to Argentina? the soldiers that fought there and the familles of those that died it would have all been for nothing.

Now they have discovered Oil they will fight tooth and nail to keep the Falklands British.(Until it runs out!)

If they hadn't found oil, then They wouldn't give a hoot about 'Little People's' feelings and would (When they think they can get away with it!) just hand it back, Same as they will eventually with Gibraltar!

Think it won't happen? - Remember Hong Kong!

[hetrodoxly]

Now they have discovered Oil they will fight tooth and nail to keep the Falklands British.(Until it runs out!)

If they hadn't found oil, then They wouldn't give a hoot about 'Little People's' feelings and would (When they think they can get away with it!) just hand it back, Same as they will eventually with Gibraltar!

Think it won't happen? - Remember Hong Kong!

I think it would be political suicide for any government to give the islands to Argentina, it's still fresh in peoples memory, but i do agree now oil's been found the Falklands are British until it runs out, Hong Kong was always going to be handed back, we had a 90 year lease and it was up.

[Space Commander Travis]

Plus Gibraltar's still in a potentially very useful position strategically; as indeed it was in Falklands War I, when it was a useful staging post.