Did ancient native American seafarers cross

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, who these guys are in your view?

It takes a bigger mind to admit a mistake... Say, you were wrong in your assessment of an ancient image - would this change our pre-history anyhow? Would this make you less respected? All you are trying to do now is to cover the bald head with whatever feathers you have left...

I'm sorry, they don't resemble the ones called Philistines in the Medinet Habu murals/pics.

It's not about admitting being wrong or less respected, I just don't see a resemblence in headdresses (or is it head gear??).

[Abramelin]

That you've seen depicted. Aside from the Persians.

Um...the picture I linked too is from Medinet Habu, and the drivers are wearing the exact same headdresses as the others.(and carrying swords and shields) The only ones with horns are the oxen.

LOL, yes, now I see it too: what I assumed were horns are in fact balls or knobs on helmets or something. At first I thought it was the borderline on the inside of two touching horns on their helmets.

I found a colored pic of the same scene:

And here's a nice site about these seapeoples : http://www.salimbeti...micenei/sea.htm

According to that site these 'feathers' might have been made from leather.

And other pics show that 'feather'-crown has a band attached to the chin of the warriors.

At least these guys took the trouble to shave their faces during the time they were busy slaughtering eachother, heh...

Another site : http://wysinger.home.../seapeople.html

And I also found a site in Spanish. I nearly dropped from my chair when I readthe list of names of these sea people:

Arawanna, Dannuna o Danuna, Denyen, Derden, Ekwesh, Karkisha, Lukka, Pelesets, Pitasha, Shardana, Shekelesh, Sherden, Shiqalaya, Teresh, Tjeker o Tjekker, y Weshesh.

http://www.portal-li...os_del_mar.html

It's the only site about the sea peoples that mentions "Arawanna"... for a second I thought I read "Arawakka", LOL !! OK, my brains were a bit off...

Here's one of the boats these "Philistines" used:

Looks like a canoe?

Now suppose for a minute some Caribbean or Brasilian tribe did indeed cross the Atlantic, settled for some time in - let's say Spain - and then together with European tribes started an invasion of Egypt. Would any archeologist ever think of that possibility? I don't think so. And they are still not sure of where some of these tribes really came from.

Btw, I was searching for more sharper pics, and came upon the site Qoais mentioned earlier: http://www.atlantisb...g/artefacts.htm

And no, this was not the source for my 'inspiration'.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Abramelin

[Harte]

Harte, the version of history, you personally chose to adhere to, requires the points you promote - but these points do not constitute historical facts, they constitute the later assessments of these facts. Say, for your version of history to prsent a true development, we have to assume:

1. Plato was a liar

You are absurd.

Plato was a philosopher that made liberal use of allegory - very much like a thousand other philosophers. That is not lying.

2. There was no memoirs by Solon existing

No, it is you that is assuming that such memoirs existed, not me assuming the opposite.

Apparently, you haven't read Plutarch's "Life of Solon."

If you do, you'll find him referring to Plato, exactly like I said.

For example:

He also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis and Sonchis of Saïs, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks.46 2

3. Plutarch was writing the Biography of Solon, basing on Plato - which automatically calls for

4. Plato was a biographer of Solon.

So, a biography can only be based on another biography?

Explain then how a "first" biography ever gets written.

Plutarch was basing on Solon's memoirs themselves, which makes #2 to be untrue as well.

Please link to the evidence for the existence of Solon's memoirs, particularly where they mention Sonchis and Atlantis.

This should be good.

Harte

[Abramelin]

I posted this pic earlier:

And it's from this site:

http://www.artsales....ea_peoples.html

I wonder how the one who created that webpage came to the conclusion that those "Weshesh" might have come from outside the Mediterranean. Anyone??

In Egyptian records of the second wave of Sea Peoples attacks in c. 1186 BC, during the reign of Pharaoh Rameses III, the Shardana, Teresh, and Shekelesh are still considered to be a menace, but new names also appear: the Denyen, Tjeker, Weshesh and Peleset. An inscription mentions that they "made a conspiracy in their islands", but these may have only been temporary bases, not their actual homelands.

The Denyen probably originally came from northern Syria (perhaps where the Shardana had once lived), and the Tjeker from the Troad (i.e., the area around Troy) (possibly via Cyprus). Alternatively, some have associated the Denyen with the Danaoi of the Iliad, and even the tribe of Dan in Israel.

Little is known about the Weshesh, though even here there is a tenuous link to Troy. As you may know, the Greeks sometimes referred to the city of Troy as Ilios, but this may have evolved from the Hittite name for the region, Wilusa, via the intermediate form Wilios. If the people called Weshesh by the Egyptians were indeed the Wilusans, as has been speculated, then they may have included some genuine Trojans, though this is an extremely tenuous association.

Finally, of course, the Peleset eventually became the Philistines and gave their name to Palestine, but they too probably originated somewhere in Anatolia.

In summary then, five of the nine named "Sea Peoples" - the Teresh, Lukka, Tjeker, Weshesh and Peleset - can plausibly be linked to Anatolia (albeit somewhat inconclusively), with the Tjeker, Teresh and Weshesh being possibly linked to the vicinity of Troy itself, though nothing can be proven and there's still much controversy about the exact locations of ancient states in that region, let alone the ethnic identity of the inhabitants.

http://ancienthistor...f/seapeople.htm

EDIT:

I think I found the source for the idea some of these sea peoples came from outside the Mediterranean... It's the Nyland guy, a guy who thinks the Basque language is the origin for all other languages.... sigh...

1210 bce., Pharaoh Merenptah wins a decisive victory over the Libyans in the western desert. The allies of the Libyans had been the Aqaiwasha people of the "foreign lands of the sea" probably the British.

http://www.faculty.u...ze/seapeopl.htm

http://www.rumormill...cgi?read=122679

OK. the idea was interesting, but alas.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Abramelin

[lightly]

Hi Abramelin... just trying to help you out with possible contact between the Old and New Worlds in times thought impossible.. and in a ,possibly, West to East manner...by using one of my favorite examples.. the Ourboros. Notice: one is Egyptian.. one is Aztec.

http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html

Ouroboros is an ancient alchemy symbol depicting a snake or dragon [DNA] swallowing its own tail, constantly creating itself and forming a circle. It is the Wheel of Time - The Alchemy Wheel - 12 Around 1 to manifest grid programs that give the illusion of linear time allowing souls to experience emotions.

Ouroboros is associated with Alchemy, Gnosticism and Hermeticism. It represents the cyclical nature of things, eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end.

In some representations the serpent is shown as half light and half dark, echoing symbols such as the Yin Yang, which illustrates the dual nature of all things, but more importantly, that these opposites are not in conflict.

Origins of the Ouroboros

The serpent or dragon eating its own tail has survived from antiquity and can be traced back to Ancient Egypt, circa 1600 B.C.E.

From there it passed to Phoenicia and then to the Greek philosophers, who gave it the name Ouroboros ("the tail-devourer").

Edited February 24, 2010 by lightlyy

[Corp]

Ok how did the Sea People get into the debate?

[Harte]

Same way they got into Egypt - they forced their way in.

H.

[MARAB0D]

You are absurd.

Plato was a philosopher that made liberal use of allegory - very much like a thousand other philosophers. That is not lying.

2. There was no memoirs by Solon existing

No, it is you that is assuming that such memoirs existed, not me assuming the opposite.

Apparently, you haven't read Plutarch's "Life of Solon."

If you do, you'll find him referring to Plato, exactly like I said.

For example:

So, a biography can only be based on another biography?

Explain then how a "first" biography ever gets written.

Plutarch was basing on Solon's memoirs themselves, which makes #2 to be untrue as well.

Please link to the evidence for the existence of Solon's memoirs, particularly where they mention Sonchis and Atlantis.

This should be good.

Harte

Harte, instead of alleging that I never read Plutarch's biographies, you better show where the entire material for Solon's biography comes from. Not from Plato for sure, as far as I know after reading them both. The memoirs of Solon were mentioned several times in unrelated sources, it is just hard for me to deliver the links at once, this is a job to scroll back through all sources I know.

As I told you and you did not believe, the works of Plato and Plutarch mentioning Solon were an important political issue for over 2000 years since they were written, because the message about Atlantis contradicts the Bible and religious teachings. Plutarch was writing 500 years later than Plato, and he still had sources on Solon's life - but where are these sources now? Tons of pagan literature were destroyed, as we know, and one can suggest that Atlantis story in Solon's memoirs was much more expanded than in Timaus, which only mentions it. Atlantis and Christianity are incompatible - do you have any doubts in this?

I respect your vision of prehistory, but I do not accept your analysis of antiquity, because you are simply repeating Vatican's stand, which I consider politicised. They were burning physical people alive for them not accepting Biblical timetable, the last of these people were burned as recently as 1838 while Darwin stopped to be an Anathema only in 2007. If there were more detailed sources on Atlantis from antique literature, we can be sure these sources were searched for and eliminated completely, and I keep this in mind when reading the one which survived, be it even written by a "liar". The church has stolen our Past, and you are helping it, I see it this way.

[lightly]

Ok how did the Sea People get into the debate?

by boat?

[Harte]

Now I, the affirmed agnostic, have become allied with the evil idolator Pope Benedict XVI!!!

Muaahh haa haa!!

Good luck locating Solon's memoirs, and don't forget to cite the part about Atlantis, or risk losing your credibility. Oh, wait, what am I saying?

Harte

[ShadowSot]

by boat?

*high five*

[MARAB0D]

Now I, the affirmed agnostic, have become allied with the evil idolator Pope Benedict XVI!!!

Muaahh haa haa!!

Good luck locating Solon's memoirs, and don't forget to cite the part about Atlantis, or risk losing your credibility. Oh, wait, what am I saying?

Harte

Well, to look for the destroyed memoirs is the same as to look for some official certificate, "affirming" you an agnostic, is not it?

[Abramelin]

Ok how did the Sea People get into the debate?

It's easy to find out: read the thread.

But I'll save you the 'hard' work...:

http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=3302104

Edited February 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Hi Abramelin... just trying to help you out with possible contact between the Old and New Worlds in times thought impossible.. and in a ,possibly, West to East manner...by using one of my favorite examples.. the Ourboros. Notice: one is Egyptian.. one is Aztec.

http://www.crystalin.../ouroboros.html

Ouroboros is an ancient alchemy symbol depicting a snake or dragon [DNA] swallowing its own tail, constantly creating itself and forming a circle. It is the Wheel of Time - The Alchemy Wheel - 12 Around 1 to manifest grid programs that give the illusion of linear time allowing souls to experience emotions.

Ouroboros is associated with Alchemy, Gnosticism and Hermeticism. It represents the cyclical nature of things, eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end.

In some representations the serpent is shown as half light and half dark, echoing symbols such as the Yin Yang, which illustrates the dual nature of all things, but more importantly, that these opposites are not in conflict.

Origins of the Ouroboros

The serpent or dragon eating its own tail has survived from antiquity and can be traced back to Ancient Egypt, circa 1600 B.C.E.

From there it passed to Phoenicia and then to the Greek philosophers, who gave it the name Ouroboros ("the tail-devourer").

Thanks Lightlyy.

But the point of this thread is not so much about rather vague similarities of artifacts of different cultures on the west and east coast of the Atlantic, but more about trying to find out if pre-Columbian native Americans did cross the Atlantic and maybe even entered the Mediterranean.

For instance, maybe there are ancient records of the Romans, Celts or Carthagans(sp?)/Phoenicians which mention rare encounters with some strange looking boat-people from "the West", or "from where the sun sets" or something.

Or let's say they find authentic ancient Roman coins somewhere on the east coast of Brasil. If that will ever be a proven fact (it is not, btw), and nothing else will be found, what can we say: that the Romans sailed across the Atlantic? Or that native Americans brought back these coins from their travels across the Atlantic?

Edited February 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Harte]

Well, to look for the destroyed memoirs is the same as to look for some official certificate, "affirming" you an agnostic, is not it?

It is one thing to actually look for evidence that Solon wrote about what he heard in Egypt.

It is quite another to claim such writings not only existed, but were referred to by Plato and Plutarch, two people whose lives are seperated from each other by 400 years, and both of whom were born hundreds of years after Solon.

Please indicate where, exactly, you got the idea that this was factual?

Harte

[SlimJim22]

It is one thing to actually look for evidence that Solon wrote about what he heard in Egypt.

It is quite another to claim such writings not only existed, but were referred to by Plato and Plutarch, two people whose lives are seperated from each other by 400 years, and both of whom were born hundreds of years after Solon.

Please indicate where, exactly, you got the idea that this was factual?

Harte

Why don't you two start a thread on Solons memoirs or lack thereof? I can't sea how it realtes to the OP but if you have read Forbes' book on the topic of the OP please provide your view on the possibility. Cheers

[Harte]

Why don't you two start a thread on Solons memoirs or lack thereof? I can't sea how it realtes to the OP but if you have read Forbes' book on the topic of the OP please provide your view on the possibility. Cheers

Good point, and thank you Slim.

Sorry for participating in derailing this thread, whose value is much greater than the ridiculous ideas I've been arguing against.

No more.

Harte

[Corp]

So the new theory is that the Sea People were actually from the Americas?

[Harte]

So the new theory is that the Sea People were actually from the Americas?

Yes.

You see, the "Sea People" is actually a phonetic spelling.

Their real name was "C" people.

They were from Connecticut.

Or, possibly, Chicago.

Harte

[Abramelin]

So the new theory is that the Sea People were actually from the Americas?

Man, did you even try to read what's been posted here??

The Sea People came from many different places, and as far as is known, most (if not all) came from the countries/islands in/around the Mediterranean.

From most of these peoples they know fairly surely where they came from.

But from some they still don't have a clue.

This is just about the POSSIBILITY that one of these tribes didn't originate in the Mediterranean, but from outside the Mediterranean.

Some have suggested (and not very convincingly if you ask me) that one of those tribes came from a country at the borders of the North Sea or the Baltic.

Well, now *I* suggest they MAY have come from even further away, like the Americas.

They MAY have arrived there at 1200 BC (Gulf Stream), settled for a while in Spain or the North African coast, and then joined other peoples that were about to invade Egypt.

Is it possible? Is there any proof they were really there at the time? Did they have a reason? You tell me...

It appears to me that as long as you suggest ancient Europeans and/or Egyptians visited the Americas, then everybody here will jump on you and give you 'proof' the Romans/Greeks/Egyptians/Sumerians/ did indeed sail to the Americas...

I think I am one of the few here who tries to point out that MAYBE the native Americans had more capabilities, that they were not the primitive hooligans that many here assume they were, and that they may have done what only we great Europeans and Middle-Easterners think we were capable of...

There were many, many MILLIONS of people living in the Americas, but that was before we 'civilized' them ... with our diseases, slave trade, religion, and what other great things we did with/gave them.

I know what I'm going to say now is fiercely disputed, but there have been found some figurines (Veracruz, Mexico) and other artifacts in the Americas that point to contact with Romans and Phoenicians. But that was all: no skeletons or ships or big statues or whatever. Just tiny things.

My idea is that native Americans may have found/traded/stole these things when they visited ancient Europe/Middle East, and took these things home.

But at that time - 1200 BC - we will have to look for the ancient Mayans or Olmecs, or the people living at the coasts of Brazil, or the native Americans at the north-east coast of North America, all travelling along the Gulf Stream.

.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Yes.

You see, the "Sea People" is actually a phonetic spelling.

Their real name was "C" people.

They were from Connecticut.

Or, possibly, Chicago.

Harte

Can you think outside your box?

[Harte]

Can you think outside your box?

Claiming that the C peoples were from Connecticut is pretty far outside anyone's box, I'd say.

Seriously, the idea seems not even worthy of consideration. I mean, possibly some Native Americans might have made it to the Eastern Hemisphere, I guess.

But why would anyone associate them with the Sea People?

The Egyptians knew who the Sea People were, or so they said.

The phenomenon of the Sea People and their looting of almost the entire Med. Coast is explainable by other means rather than they were Cherokee.

I mean, if you're going to put them in with the Sea People, why not include them in with the Templars, the Atlanteans, the Huns, the Hapsburgs, the Anunakki?

My guess is that if some NA's got to the East, they probably lived and died there pretty much like 99.99999% of the rest of the population they met there did.

Harte

[cormac mac airt]

Claiming that the C peoples were from Connecticut is pretty far outside anyone's box, I'd say.

Seriously, the idea seems not even worthy of consideration. I mean, possibly some Native Americans might have made it to the Eastern Hemisphere, I guess.

But why would anyone associate them with the Sea People?

The Egyptians knew who the Sea People were, or so they said.

The phenomenon of the Sea People and their looting of almost the entire Med. Coast is explainable by other means rather than they were Cherokee.

I mean, if you're going to put them in with the Sea People, why not include them in with the Templars, the Atlanteans, the Huns, the Hapsburgs, the Anunakki?

My guess is that if some NA's got to the East, they probably lived and died there pretty much like 99.99999% of the rest of the population they met there did.

Harte

And if one is to take the possibility seriously, then they did so in such insufficient numbers as to make their existance, archaeologically and genetically, irrelevant to the future of the Old World.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Claiming that the C peoples were from Connecticut is pretty far outside anyone's box, I'd say.

Seriously, the idea seems not even worthy of consideration. I mean, possibly some Native Americans might have made it to the Eastern Hemisphere, I guess.

But why would anyone associate them with the Sea People?

The Egyptians knew who the Sea People were, or so they said.

The phenomenon of the Sea People and their looting of almost the entire Med. Coast is explainable by other means rather than they were Cherokee.

I mean, if you're going to put them in with the Sea People, why not include them in with the Templars, the Atlanteans, the Huns, the Hapsburgs, the Anunakki?

My guess is that if some NA's got to the East, they probably lived and died there pretty much like 99.99999% of the rest of the population they met there did.

Harte

The Egyptians gave them names. yeah, but we here are still trying to figure out who these people were. Some of the Sea Peoples are known tribes, or so they think. But all these ideas are based on nothing but the assumption that several Mediterranean people had a reason to invade Egypt. Can you be sure no outside people took part in the raids? Were you there??

The fact that you say that the idea is not even worthy of consideration tells me something about what you think native Americans were capable of back then.

I think my idea is very reasonable, no need to bring in Atlantis or the Annunaki.

You seem to just simply resist the possibility that these native Americans were capable (AND willing) of doing what we always feel great of: exploring the seas.

[MARAB0D]

It is one thing to actually look for evidence that Solon wrote about what he heard in Egypt.

It is quite another to claim such writings not only existed, but were referred to by Plato and Plutarch, two people whose lives are seperated from each other by 400 years, and both of whom were born hundreds of years after Solon.

Please indicate where, exactly, you got the idea that this was factual?

Harte

Now, I had to read Plutarch again to clear this. He actually says that the Atlantis story was in the unfinished poem, Solon wrote under impression of the story told to him by Sonkhis during his travel to Sais. Solon was among all other things, a poet-maniac, so he even tried to present his laws as a poem, of which Plutarch provides few first lines; also when he wanted to breach the law, prohibiting to call for a war with Salamis island he wrote a 100-verse poem as a speech. On top of this Plutarch mentions that Plato saw the story of Atlantis as his family legend, and from him one can conclude that Plato and Solon were relatives (needs clarification though), so Plato allegedly had access to some family papers, left from his ancestor. It is possible from this that the memoirs I had mentioned (this word comes from the COMMENTS to Soviet academic edition of Timaeus I had) were also kept within the family, same as the poem, or maybe the poem WAS these memoirs, also possible given Solon's poetic tastes.

Plutarch clearly distinguishes between the story of Atlantis, as told by Solon and repeated by Plato in Timaeus, and the Plato's own fantasies on this issue, expressed in his later works - explaining this with Plato considering Atlantis as his property, "I do whatever I like of it". But, as I said and as Plutarch says, these fantasies had little to do with the actual story, which Plato was treasuring as any such type family heritage. Moreover, Plutarch adds that Plato did not fulfill his dream to write an extended work on Atlantis, and this part of his writings remained unfinished project, same as Solon's poem. Plutarch was not writing Biography using Plato as a source, he mentions other writings he used and refers to them in the beginning. By the way he also says that Plato too was traveling to Egypt, so if the intention of Plato was to lie about Solon's message, then he could easily mention he himself also heard this story, but he never said this.