If WW2 never happened?

[Michael J Jackson]

Imagine this -

It's 1938. Hitler is killed in an assassination attempt. The Nazi party begins to lose support form the German people and it loses it's role as the majority party in the Reichstag. The German government returns to a Wiemar Democracy. No dictatorship is ever formed. Life goes on without war. But what would have happened to the rest of the world?

-Would America have recovered from the Great Depression?

-Would Japan become a technological giant?

-What would happen to Europe?

-Would atomic weapons be invented?

-Would Germany ever truly recover from WW1, and would they abolish the Treaty of Versailles?

-Would China's government have grown strong enough to withstand Mao's communist revolution without Japan having declared war on it earlier? Would China have been a bigger superpower in the world today if it had had a different government for the past 56 years?

-Would the Britians still have their empire or would it have internally collapsed. Without the war to drain their treasury would they be a larger power than they are today?

-Would NATO still have formed to keep the Soviet Union's plans for world communism in check in the European theater? Would their forces have been enough to actually disuade the Soviets from attacking?

-What would the population of of the world be today? Would we have enough resources?

I've been studying Hitler and the effects of WW2 in Modern History at school.

I was just interested in what would have happened if Hitler had been killed and the Nazi party had of collapsed, consequently preventing WW2.

Discuss.

Nick

[The Big Boss]

This topic totally reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpvqn0fT1OY

[Michael J Jackson]

Video pretty much explains my question if you're unsure.

Thanks Big Boss.

Nick

[Javril]

Without a war with Germany the events in Asia would be very different. Japan was at war with china at the out break of WW2, they had ties to Germany who had helped the economically. Because of this Western government's who were not actively fighting Japan (USA) but disliked their ties to the Nazi's reduced or cut trade to them. This put Japan in a position where they required supplies but had no way of attaining them without going to war with another large power. This led to the attack on pearl harbour and the expansion of the war in the east. I believe that without WW2 the west would not have imposed sanctions on Japan which would have not caused them to attack America and they would have continued to fight in china. It is probable that the West would have supported Japan as it was a better alternative in their mind then communism.

[Michael J Jackson]

Without a war with Germany the events in Asia would be very different. Japan was at war with china at the out break of WW2, they had ties to Germany who had helped the economically. Because of this Western government's who were not actively fighting Japan (USA) but disliked their ties to the Nazi's reduced or cut trade to them. This put Japan in a position where they required supplies but had no way of attaining them without going to war with another large power. This led to the attack on pearl harbour and the expansion of the war in the east. I believe that without WW2 the west would not have imposed sanctions on Japan which would have not caused them to attack America and they would have continued to fight in china. It is probable that the West would have supported Japan as it was a better alternative in their mind then communism.

Do you think the allies would have sided with Japan and actually fought China? Or would they have just let Japan and China fight it out until one of them became the victor?

Nick

[TheSearcher]

I'm not sure of the assassination of Adolf Hitler in 1938 would have changed something. It would have only made him a martyr to the cause of the Nazi's, another of the leaders would have taken his place. In 1938, it was basically too late, as Hitler was already Chancellor for 5 years then.

Consider, that he already wrote "Mein Kampf" in 1925, when he was in prison for the attempted Beer-Hall putch in 1924. It actually was between 1925 and 1933, that the Nazi party would grow. By the early 1930s the senior leaders of the party after Hitler were Himmler, Goebbels and Göring. The Nazi Party might never have come to power had it not been for the Great Depression and its effects on Germany. By 1930 the German economy was beset with mass unemployment and widespread business failures. The SPD and the KPD parties were bitterly divided and unable to formulate an effective solution; this gave the Nazis their opportunity, and Hitler's message, blaming the crisis on the Jewish financiers and the Bolsheviks resonated with wide sections of the electorate.

In 1933, the Nazi party had become the biggest party in the Reichstag. Political intrigues eventually persuaded President Hindenburg, that it was safe to appoint Hitler Reich Chancellor at the head of a cabinet which included only a minority of Nazi ministers, which he did on 30 January 1933.

On 27 February 1933, the Reichstag building was set on fire. This Reichstag fire was blamed on a communist conspiracy and the KPD's offices were closed, its press banned and leaders were arrested. Hitler convinced President von Hindenburg to sign the "Reichstag Fire Decree", suspending most of the human rights provided for by the 1919 constitution of the Weimar Republic.

Since the new government lacked a majority in parliament, Hitler held a new election in March 1933. With the communists eliminated, the Nazis dominated the election with 43.9%, and with their Nationalist (DNVP) allies, achieved a parliamentary majority (51.8%).

A further decisive step was the "Enabling Act", which granted the cabinet (and therefore Hitler) legislative powers. The Enabling Act effectively abolished the separation of powers.

The rest after that is, sadly, history.

I think if you would have wanted to change history and avoid the rise of the Nazi's, thus the rise of the Third Reich, you need to eliminate Hitler before he writes his infamous book in prison and before he starts to use his talents as an extraordinary orator (not that I admire the man, the contrary is the case, but he was). 1924, during the attempted Beer-Hall putch, would have been perfect.

The Nazi party as such would have still existed, but it would never have reached the levels it did, and would have fallen back into insignificance. Hence, no Third Reich.

Edited February 23, 2010 by TheSearcher

[Michael J Jackson]

^Ok, so say he was assassinated at this point in time, and WW2 had have been prevented.

What would have happened?

Nick

[TheSearcher]

Well I would suppose that things would have taken a different turn. Whilst war between Japan and the United States had been a possibility that each nation's military forces planned for since the 1920s, tension did not begin until the 1931 invasion of Manchuria by Japan. Over the next decade, Japan expanded slowly into China, leading to all out war between the two in 1937. In 1940 Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to embargo all imports into China, including war supplies purchased from the U.S. This move prompted the United States to embargo all oil exports, leading the Imperial Japanese Navy to estimate, that it had less than two years of bunker oil remaining and to support the existing plans to seize oil resources in the Dutch East Indies. Planning had been underway for some time on an attack on the "Southern Resource Area" to add it to the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere that Japan envisioned in the Pacific.

With signing the Tripartite Pact in 1940 with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy (the Axis powers, as it is better known), the three nations involved were guaranteeing assistance to one another if they were to be attacked by any country that was considered neutral at that time. This was a Pact directly aimed at the United States, and it gave Japan more power on the political level. The Tripartite Pact would create an uncomfortable situation for the United States, due to the fact that it was now threatened on both sides of its country. The U.S had the threat of Hitler and Mussolini on the Atlantic Ocean, and Japan on the Pacific Ocean.

With Germany out of the picture, there would have been no Tripartite Pact, which would have severly restrained Japan in it's actions. I'm sure there would have been an eventual confrontation between Japan and the US, but the level of involvement would have been totally different.

Japan would have invaded Manchuria anyway, that had allways been their plan. Mao was already politically active as far back as 1921, the Sino-Japanese war would have weakened the Chinese government, no matter what and there is the fact that China was devided anyway, in parts controled by the Kuomintang (under leader ship of Chiang Kai-shek) some controled by the CPC (under leadership of Mao). For Example, by June 1932 (the height of its power), the Red Army had no less than 45,000 soldiers, with a further 200,000 local militia acting as a subsidiary force. It was a rather complicated situation, but I think in the end it would have turned out the same, no matter how you look at it. In my opinion, China would have been the same as it is today.

There are so many factor that one needs to consider, the removal of one man can make a difference, but one needs to carefully consider what determines the outcome of history and what does not. The removal of one man may be important, but there is no simple answer for this, as economic and socio-political reasoning enters into it as well.

[James L]

Almost confirms my suspicion that conflict is healthy for evolution

at some point we'll have to get past it all though

[TheSearcher]

Almost confirms my suspicion that conflict is healthy for evolution

at some point we'll have to get past it all though

Conflict is certainly a catalyst for technological development, that's for sure.

[Alien Being]

Imagine this -

It's 1938. Hitler is killed in an assassination attempt. The Nazi party begins to lose support form the German people and it loses it's role as the majority party in the Reichstag. The German government returns to a Wiemar Democracy. No dictatorship is ever formed. Life goes on without war. But what would have happened to the rest of the world?

-Would America have recovered from the Great Depression?

-Would Japan become a technological giant?

-What would happen to Europe?

-Would atomic weapons be invented?

-Would Germany ever truly recover from WW1, and would they abolish the Treaty of Versailles?

-Would China's government have grown strong enough to withstand Mao's communist revolution without Japan having declared war on it earlier? Would China have been a bigger superpower in the world today if it had had a different government for the past 56 years?

-Would the Britians still have their empire or would it have internally collapsed. Without the war to drain their treasury would they be a larger power than they are today?

-Would NATO still have formed to keep the Soviet Union's plans for world communism in check in the European theater? Would their forces have been enough to actually disuade the Soviets from attacking?

-What would the population of of the world be today? Would we have enough resources?

I've been studying Hitler and the effects of WW2 in Modern History at school.

I was just interested in what would have happened if Hitler had been killed and the Nazi party had of collapsed, consequently preventing WW2.

Discuss.

Nick

Germany had its back to the wall so WW2 would have happened with or without Hitler.

An important rule or warfare is that you either treat you conquered enemy extremely nicely or you utterly destroy them. If you are harsh on them but dont destroy them they will always come looking for revenge.

[TheSearcher]

Germany had its back to the wall so WW2 would have happened with or without Hitler.

An important rule or warfare is that you either treat you conquered enemy extremely nicely or you utterly destroy them. If you are harsh on them but dont destroy them they will always come looking for revenge.

Actually that's not entirely true, when Chancellor Franz von Papen called another Reichstag election in November 1933, hoping to find a way out of the political impasse he was in. The result was disapointing, with the Nazis and the KPD winning 50% of the vote between them and more than half the seats. But it's important to know, that support for the Nazis had fallen to 33.1%, suggesting that the Nazi surge had passed its peak, possibly because the worst of the Depression had passed, possibly because some middle-class voters had supported Hitler in July (when the Nazi's were polling 37.4%) as a protest, but had now drawn back from the prospect of actually putting him into power. Had the other parties united, this could have been prevented, but their shortsightedness made a united front impossible.

Had Hitler been dead since 1924, I'm not even sure the Nazi party would have gained the proeminence it did, as a lot of it was due to Hitlers talents as a public speaker.

[sinewave]

That is a good question. In 1941 the US had the 19th largest military (just behind Portugal) and a largely isolated economy. Without WWII there would have been little reason to change either thing. The economic boom of the late 40's and early 50's would not have happened so there would have been a lower demand for houses and cars. It would follow then the growth of American suburbs would likely not have been as pronounced. More people would have stayed in the big cities ant it could be argued then that the urban decay of the 50's and 60's would have been substantially less or even nonexistent. The Baby Boom would not have happened and we probably would not have seen the strong cultural revolutions that occurred as the boomers grew up. Radio, Television would not have been as affordable so they would likely have not had as much impact on our culture as they do. With people staying in cities public transportation would have been more of a priority than cars. Rail travel would have remained viable. The US Interstate system would probably not have been built or at least not as extensively has it has been. Nuclear weapons may have been developed but much later and probably would not have been used. We would not have gone to the moon or advanced air travel as far as we have. It is safe to say the world would be a very different place if the Austrian corporal had never been. Of course the same could be said if Kaiser Wilhelm had not made the Treaty of Versailles necessary in the first place.

Japan would not have been bold enough to attack the US and may not have invaded China. I don't think Japan would have become the economic and industrial power it is is today.

Edited February 23, 2010 by sinewave

[SlimJim22]

Good debate. It strikes me that had Hitler been assassinated, as Search said someone would have stepped up although they may not have had the charisma to galvanize the german nation as Hitler did. However, Mussolini's fascist party may have started to take a lead role and that would have been interesting to see how that would have played out. For me the two big consequences of WW2 was the impetus given to Zionism and the drive to create Israel and secondly the formation of the IMF to regulate the world economy. Had this not occurred we would live in a much different world. I'm not saying better, for all I know total chaos could have reigned and it was the unity of the allies and other nations that provided the stability and foundation from which our modern society grew into it's technologically advanced state of being. War is part of human nature and usually results in the redefining of borders and attainment of resources on a local scale. When you have a global war you get global consequences.

[sinewave]

Good debate. It strikes me that had Hitler been assassinated, as Search said someone would have stepped up although they may not have had the charisma to galvanize the german nation as Hitler did. However, Mussolini's fascist party may have started to take a lead role and that would have been interesting to see how that would have played out. For me the two big consequences of WW2 was the impetus given to Zionism and the drive to create Israel and secondly the formation of the IMF to regulate the world economy. Had this not occurred we would live in a much different world. I'm not saying better, for all I know total chaos could have reigned and it was the unity of the allies and other nations that provided the stability and foundation from which our modern society grew into it's technologically advanced state of being. War is part of human nature and usually results in the redefining of borders and attainment of resources on a local scale. When you have a global war you get global consequences.

Yes, it is a fascinating what if. I don't think Mussolini had the grapes to impact Europe as profoundly as Hitler did. He probably would have stayed inside his borders. You bring up an interesting point. Would Israel have been formed if the Holocaust had not happened?

[SlimJim22]

Yes, it is a fascinating what if. I don't think Mussolini had the grapes to impact Europe as profoundly as Hitler did. He probably would have stayed inside his borders. You bring up an interesting point. Would Israel have been formed if the Holocaust had not happened?

It's hard to imagine a world without Israel but it is easy to forget how young as a nation it is. Without the Holocaust there would still have been a lot of jews and zionists pushing for a jewish homeland in Palestine. This itself could have led to a direct conflict between the west and the middle east nations. Much had been done to soften up the middle east already by removing the Ottoman empire and allocating sovreigns not totally objectionable to the west. What puzzles me is how Isarel has got to the level of technology it has in around fifty years, such as the pilotless drones they are now talking about. To come effectively out of nothing to where it is now that is an admirable feat. Maybe they have Hitler to thank in a pradoxical sort of a way?

[Freddie AppsHero]

Pretty much impossible to say; too many variables. But if the post-WWI status quo remained, then it's hard to picture the Soviets not pushing for European domination.

[Corp]

-Would America have recovered from the Great Depression?

-Would Japan become a technological giant?

-What would happen to Europe?

-Would atomic weapons be invented?

-Would Germany ever truly recover from WW1, and would they abolish the Treaty of Versailles?

-Would China's government have grown strong enough to withstand Mao's communist revolution without Japan having declared war on it earlier? Would China have been a bigger superpower in the world today if it had had a different government for the past 56 years?

-Would the Britians still have their empire or would it have internally collapsed. Without the war to drain their treasury would they be a larger power than they are today?

-Would NATO still have formed to keep the Soviet Union's plans for world communism in check in the European theater? Would their forces have been enough to actually disuade the Soviets from attacking?

-What would the population of of the world be today? Would we have enough resources?

1) Well at the time America was already recovering from the Depression, though without the war it would have taken longer.

2) Perhaps. I don't think Japan's history would change much. They would have still invaded China, which would have made the US mad and look at limiting trade. Now at this point Japan could go a few ways. They could back down knowing that without a massive war to distract everyone they wouldn't able able to make the gains they did. They could just attack Dutch territory and hope that the other European powers stayed out of the war. Or they could have done as they did historically and then gotten smashed sooner as both the US, the UK, and France brought their fill weight against Japan.

3) Likely the Soviet Union would have continued to gather strength and may have made their own play at European conquest. Open question on how quickly Europe rallies to stop them.

4) Sure, would happen sooner or later.

5) Well Germany had more or less recovered, or were well on their way. Hitler was a murdering madman but he was able to pull Germany back on its feet.

6) Don't think China's history would be that different really, expect maybe become bloodier as interested parties had more resources to give to their favorite faction.

7) They would have likely still lost most of it. India was already on their way out by this time and if Russia did throw down the British would still be in trouble. Perhaps the difference would be that some of the countries would have left the empire later and in better shape.

8) I'm sure some version of it would be formed but nothing nearly as strong. Likely just be Poland, France, and Britain with their smaller side alliances. It would only be if Russia completely flipped that would convince everyone to band together. At this time France saw Germany as a bigger threat than the Soviets. As for if the Soviets could be held back, well it all depends on if the allies got their stuff together and if Russia had time to rebuild from the purges.

9) Our population would be a bit bigger and yes there would be enough resources.

[sinewave]

Pretty much impossible to say; too many variables. But if the post-WWI status quo remained, then it's hard to picture the Soviets not pushing for European domination.

Yes, Stalin would likely have attempted to take over at least part of Europe and would probably have gotten away with it as long as there was no immediate threat to Britain. Without Pearl Harbor and Churchill's urging of Roosevelt, the US would likely have remained neutral. And without Germany, I have to think that Japan would not have been so bold as to attack the US.

[Siara]

This is a very fascinating, complex question.

One easy part of the question is, "Would the bomb have been invented if it wasn't for WWII?" The answer is definitely "yes". Physics had evolved to the point where the possibility of the bomb was obvious. Many cultures (including Japan and Germany) were working on it. Many of the physicists who ended up working on the Manhattan Projecr (the development & testing of the a-bomb in New Mexico) were immigrants who had left Europe to escape the Nazis. They were already pretty far along in their research before they emigrated.

I'm not a physics person but I learned this when I visited the memorial museum in Hiroshima. The museum stated flat out that the Nazis and the Japanese were both working on the bomb too. The only question in the bomb's development was who would solve the technical problems first. It was an inevitable scientific next step that someone would solve them.

[Wyrdlight]

Without a war with Germany the events in Asia would be very different. Japan was at war with china at the out break of WW2, they had ties to Germany who had helped the economically. Because of this Western government's who were not actively fighting Japan (USA) but disliked their ties to the Nazi's reduced or cut trade to them. This put Japan in a position where they required supplies but had no way of attaining them without going to war with another large power. This led to the attack on pearl harbour and the expansion of the war in the east. I believe that without WW2 the west would not have imposed sanctions on Japan which would have not caused them to attack America and they would have continued to fight in china. It is probable that the West would have supported Japan as it was a better alternative in their mind then communism.

Hmmmmm i thought that the attack on pearl harbour was a secondary objective meant to draw attention from the main objective of taking the oil-rich Dutch East Indies. I think Japan would have emerged a s super power, China was crumbling to bits, the japanese would have had the east indies and thus all the oil they needed, comnied with the mineral wealth of occupied China they would ahve been in a strong economic position.

I dont think the USA would ahve attacked japan if they ahd not attacked pearl harbour, or if they had it would not have been till much much later, when Japan would be a rival on the seas and in the air.

[Black Hound]

This is a very fascinating, complex question.

One easy part of the question is, "Would the bomb have been invented if it wasn't for WWII?" The answer is definitely "yes". Physics had evolved to the point where the possibility of the bomb was obvious. Many cultures (including Japan and Germany) were working on it. Many of the physicists who ended up working on the Manhattan Projecr (the development & testing of the a-bomb in New Mexico) were immigrants who had left Europe to escape the Nazis. They were already pretty far along in their research before they emigrated.

I'm not a physics person but I learned this when I visited the memorial museum in Hiroshima. The museum stated flat out that the Nazis and the Japanese were both working on the bomb too. The only question in the bomb's development was who would solve the technical problems first. It was an inevitable scientific next step that someone would solve them.

Thanks for sharing the idea. I have no concept if just 1 event could/would change world history but it would be interesing to have a post of just "what if" and go from there.

[Javril]

Do you think the allies would have sided with Japan and actually fought China? Or would they have just let Japan and China fight it out until one of them became the victor?

Nick

I'm not saying actually entered combat but support them economically (loans, good deals on equipment), such as America did before they entered the war.

[TheSearcher]

It's hard to imagine a world without Israel but it is easy to forget how young as a nation it is. Without the Holocaust there would still have been a lot of jews and zionists pushing for a jewish homeland in Palestine. This itself could have led to a direct conflict between the west and the middle east nations. Much had been done to soften up the middle east already by removing the Ottoman empire and allocating sovreigns not totally objectionable to the west. What puzzles me is how Isarel has got to the level of technology it has in around fifty years, such as the pilotless drones they are now talking about. To come effectively out of nothing to where it is now that is an admirable feat. Maybe they have Hitler to thank in a pradoxical sort of a way?

The creation of Israel is a direct consequence of the holocaust and WWII, so it's creation if neither of those had happened, is very doubtfull. The fact that they developped that quickly is partly due to the stream of people from all realms of life coming to Israel, including scientists, industrials etc, the help of international capital, US funding, etc. It's not really surprising, as such, the knowledge was there, they needed to build up the infrasctucture only (although that was no mean feat in itself, let's be clear about it).

I don't think that you should mention thanking Hitler to any Israeli, they might not take it too well.

[Michael J Jackson]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for keeping this topic going! It's interesting to read some of your opinions.

Nick