mysteries of pyramids

[kmt_sesh]

I may have missed it, but an interesting link into the theories of how the pyramid was built.

My link

Hope that worked

It's about folks studying the use of wind power helping in the building of the pyramids. Kind of cool. I watched a program on them doing the obelisk test, and the kite worked really well.

I'm not sure what the pyramids might be for other than burial places. I think there is more to it than they just are burial places though.

Hi, rashore. I see you're a recent arrival to UM, so welcome.

I've come across the "kite theory" before, and it's not terribly realistic, to put it plainly. Consider some basic facts:

• The team was able to lift one obelisk weighing 6,900 pounds. That's pretty impressive, but remember that the average stone of the Great Pyramid weighs around 6,000 pounds. Now, picture using enough kites to assemble around 2 million of these stones into the proper positions. Most likely, all that would happen is a Charlie Brown moment on a colossal scale, with thousands of kites tangled together and smashing into the ground.
  
• And you would need thousands of kites, in the very least. Imagine the amount of linen and rope necessary for constantly making and maintaining so many kites. Not only completely impractical, but prohibitively expensive--even for a king.
  
• On that note, there is no archaeological evidence at Giza for the maintenance and support of such an industry. Trust me, the production of thousands of kites over the span of twenty years would leave considerable evidence in the archaeological record.
  
• Also remember that while the average stone in the Great Pyramid weighs around 6,000 pounds (2.5 to 3 tons), many of the stones are considerably larger, especially on the bottom courses. And some of the dressed granite slabs in the interior corridors and chambers weigh 40 to 50 tons. Kites would never have worked for these.
  
• Obviously, the amount of time it would take to manage and direct all of these kites hauling large blocks of masonry, would make it necessary to maneuver only a few stones at any one time--and only on those days when there was sufficient wind to create lift. At that rate, the Egyptians would probably still be building the pyramid.
  

When you get down to it, the kite theory is impractical and unrealistic on multiple levels. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that the Egyptians ever tried to employ such technology. In the end it was simply an interesting piece of experimental archaeology, but not at all plausible.

On the other hand, what excavators have been able to unearth over the years south of the three pyramids, is a vast complex and village that shows clear evidence for the feeding, care, and housing of many thousands of workers at any one time. The evidence is irrefutable. We believe that at this time in the Nile Valley (c. 2500 BCE), the population was at least 800,000 people. The Egyptian state had more than enough human resources from which to draw labor, and more than enough natural resources from which to build the Great Pyramid. Moreover, the Egyptian state in Dynasty 4 was a highly organized, prosperous, and stable entity that could manage and carry out the necessary logistics.

In the end, orthodox historians' explanation for the building of the Great Pyramid remains the best explanation available.

[The Argo Wind]

Kmt_Sesh and lightlyy

Here's a similiar image at The Temple of Karnak. The lion goddess is holding a "mobile incense burner" for ritual purposes. You can see the dish with a little mound in it that was typical for incense glyphs.

[kmt_sesh]

Kmt_Sesh and lightlyy

Here's a similiar image at The Temple of Karnak. The lion goddess is holding a "mobile incense burner" for ritual purposes. You can see the dish with a little mound in it that was typical for incense glyphs.

<<Image>>

This image shows Seti I bowing before Re-Horakthy; behind him stands the goddess Weret-Hekau, in lion-headed form. She is not holding a mobile incense burner but, as with Re-Horakhty, a staff from which dangles ornaments comprised of hieroglyphic blessings. This was very common in Egyptian iconographic relief carvings, in which ornaments on staves and scepters served to bless the penitent. I've applied color coding here:

The little dish in the ornaments is actually the nb-glyph (a basket), in this case meaning "all." It's a common modifier or adjective in glyphic writing where blessings and offerings are concerned. Here's how the inscriptions work, based on my color codes:

• RED: Both staves: Hb-sd nb, "All Heb-Sed festivals."
  
• GREEN: Both staves: anx wAs nb, "All life and dominion."
  
• WHITE: Re-Horakthy only: Obscured by the god's arm (the relief was possibly altered).
  
• PURPLE: Re-Horakhty only: HH anx nb, "All life and infinity" (a bit redundant-sounding in English, but depicted is the god Heh, indicating "millions," i.e., infinity, who holds ankhs).
  

Basically the ornaments on the staves indicate Seti I will have a long reign and will live on forever. He will forever know life, power, and celebration.

The yellow-shaded vertical inscription in front of Weret-Hekau says: di.s anx [...] (n).f nb, "She gives him all life and [...]" (I'm not sure enough about the glyph in the lacuna to make an identification).

I have no reason to doubt that the Egyptians used some sort of portable incense burners dangling from staves, but I cannot think of inscriptional or relief evidence to corroborate it. In this case, however, the glyphs dangling from the staves of the deities makes their purpose clear, as I explained above.

What makes me especially certain of deciding against an incense burner is the absence of smoke or flame issuing from the ornaments. This might seem a trifle in our minds, but in the ancient Egyptian mind it would've been essential. To show an incense burner without either incense pellets or a flame, or both, was to depict a non-functioning burner, and this would have made the device worthless. Incense burners are amply evidenced on stelae, tomb walls, temple walls, and other monuments. A common depiction is seen in this stela, in which Tuthmosis III is making offerings to the god Amun-Re. Tuthmosis is shown holding up a incense burner in his left hand--note the wisp of smoke rising from the top.

Also evidenced is a depiction like this, in which Seti I is shown holding an incense burner similar to the sort many of us use today. Seti is shown pouring incense pellets into the front end, from which wisps of smoke rise.

LOL Anubis is my own favorite among the Egyptian pantheon, so naturally I have an incense burner much like this one.

[zoser]

This image shows Seti I bowing before Re-Horakthy; behind him stands the goddess Weret-Hekau, in lion-headed form. She is not holding a mobile incense burner but, as with Re-Horakhty, a staff from which dangles ornaments comprised of hieroglyphic blessings. This was very common in Egyptian iconographic relief carvings, in which ornaments on staves and scepters served to bless the penitent. I've applied color coding here:

The little dish in the ornaments is actually the nb-glyph (a basket), in this case meaning "all." It's a common modifier or adjective in glyphic writing where blessings and offerings are concerned. Here's how the inscriptions work, based on my color codes:

• RED: Both staves: Hb-sd nb, "All Heb-Sed festivals."
  
• GREEN: Both staves: anx wAs nb, "All life and dominion."
  
• WHITE: Re-Horakthy only: Obscured by the god's arm (the relief was possibly altered).
  
• PURPLE: Re-Horakhty only: HH anx nb, "All life and infinity" (a bit redundant-sounding in English, but depicted is the god Heh, indicating "millions," i.e., infinity, who holds ankhs).
  

Basically the ornaments on the staves indicate Seti I will have a long reign and will live on forever. He will forever know life, power, and celebration.

The yellow-shaded vertical inscription in front of Weret-Hekau says: di.s anx [...] (n).f nb, "She gives him all life and [...]" (I'm not sure enough about the glyph in the lacuna to make an identification).

I have no reason to doubt that the Egyptians used some sort of portable incense burners dangling from staves, but I cannot think of inscriptional or relief evidence to corroborate it. In this case, however, the glyphs dangling from the staves of the deities makes their purpose clear, as I explained above.

What makes me especially certain of deciding against an incense burner is the absence of smoke or flame issuing from the ornaments. This might seem a trifle in our minds, but in the ancient Egyptian mind it would've been essential. To show an incense burner without either incense pellets or a flame, or both, was to depict a non-functioning burner, and this would have made the device worthless. Incense burners are amply evidenced on stelae, tomb walls, temple walls, and other monuments. A common depiction is seen in this stela, in which Tuthmosis III is making offerings to the god Amun-Re. Tuthmosis is shown holding up a incense burner in his left hand--note the wisp of smoke rising from the top.

Also evidenced is a depiction like this, in which Seti I is shown holding an incense burner similar to the sort many of us use today. Seti is shown pouring incense pellets into the front end, from which wisps of smoke rise.

LOL Anubis is my own favorite among the Egyptian pantheon, so naturally I have an incense burner much like this one.

Isn't this a bit off topic KMT?

I thought this thread was to do with the mystery of the pyramids? Surely a much deeper and greater mystery than debating the intricacies of incense burners?

[sinewave]

That Nat Geo video provided by the OP makes sense. What are the arguments against it in light of the French team's diagram?

[cladking]

That Nat Geo video provided by the OP makes sense. What are the arguments against it in light of the French team's diagram?

Here's a good photo of the niche;

http://z.about.com/d/archaeology/1/0/t/f/great_pyramid.jpg

Here's a better one but less is visible because of the angle (it's on the right);

http://bdmoscow.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/img_2981.jpg

At this point he really needs to pull a rabbit out of his hat to prove

this theory. He just might be able to do it but the evidence so far is

not substantiating.

It's improbable that it is possible to have built this structure with any

sort of ramps and the evidence against them is simply staghgering and get-

ting more complete each day. Yeah, I know anything is possible and this

even applies to building G1 with ramps. But we'd be talking about things

like using levitation rays to hold the ramps up and move stones along them,

not primitive savages toiling in the desert heat dragging stones.

Look at that first picture above and note the vertical lines. This is ve-

ry conclusive evidence that there were no ramps. It says in no uncertain

terms that all processes related to quarrying and movement of stone laid in

a vertical or horizontal plane. This means no ramps.

[kmt_sesh]

...

Look at that first picture above and note the vertical lines. This is ve-

ry conclusive evidence that there were no ramps. It says in no uncertain

terms that all processes related to quarrying and movement of stone laid in

a vertical or horizontal plane. This means no ramps.

I think I finally understand your point about vertical lines. I don't know if you've ever plainly stated it, but I'm wagering that this is how you show your argument for stones being lifted up the sides of the pyramid via your hydraulic theory. I can think of no other relevance for your emphasis on vertical lines.

Of course, given the slope of over 51 degrees, it's not plausible that stones were being sent up this way to begin with. They would've bounced and banged along the existing courses of masonry and been damaged significantly by the time they reached their positions--as well as damaging the existing masonry against which they were careening.

Based on all you've argued, and despite your continuing misrepresentation that ramps have been disproved, ramps continue to be the only system by which masonry could've been delivered in an organized and controllable way, and with any degree of safety.

Houdin's theory is tenuous and not widely accepted, of course, but it remains the only scientifically plausible alternative theory to the orthodox argument for ramps. Levitation is the stuff of ten year olds, kites are a foolish flight of fancy, aliens did not exist, and, I regretfully emphasize, your own hydraulic theory remains uncorroborated.

[cladking]

I think I finally understand your point about vertical lines. I don't know if you've ever plainly stated it, but I'm wagering that this is how you show your argument for stones being lifted up the sides of the pyramid via your hydraulic theory. I can think of no other relevance for your emphasis on vertical lines.

Of course, given the slope of over 51 degrees, it's not plausible that stones were being sent up this way to begin with. They would've bounced and banged along the existing courses of masonry and been damaged significantly by the time they reached their positions--as well as damaging the existing masonry against which they were careening.

Based on all you've argued, and despite your continuing misrepresentation that ramps have been disproved, ramps continue to be the only system by which masonry could've been delivered in an organized and controllable way, and with any degree of safety.

Houdin's theory is tenuous and not widely accepted, of course, but it remains the only scientifically plausible alternative theory to the orthodox argument for ramps. Levitation is the stuff of ten year olds, kites are a foolish flight of fancy, aliens did not exist, and, I regretfully emphasize, your own hydraulic theory remains uncorroborated.

The vertical lines really do show pretty conclusively that all the processes

that were employed in moving stones occured in a vertical plane. This is a

difficult concept but the more you think about it the more obvious it becomes.

No, it doesn't really make ramps impossible but it does make spiral ramps im-

possible (for practical purposes) and makes others far less plausible.

My thinking on the means is constantly evolving as new ideas come to mind and

new information becomes available and some of my older ideas might be confusing

you. Until recently I pictured these boats just powering their way up and down

the sides. I no longer bhelieve this. I believe they made a well formed track

made of nice flat stones with sides on it to keep these "boats" on track. These

were not the cladding but were probably made of tura limestone and when the py-

ramid was complete and the track no longer needed was disassembled from the top

down and recut to make cladding stones. The actual physical stones on which the

cw's and ascenders rode are long gone, cut into cladding and then stripped by

earthquakes and people. But, as they were building the pyramid they also had to

piece some backing stones into these areas that the track had been. It's these

pieced in backing stones which are visible as vertical lines today.

Stones would have had a nice smooth ascent on the heavily greased tracks (the

tracks were often called "ladders"). A 51 degree slope simply means only half

the weight of the cw or stones is sitting on the pyramid and the other half is

hanging from the ropes. The ability to reduce friction to very low levels with

this system simply means it can be highly efficient.

Ramps are reasonably well known to have delivered stone to the base of the pyramids.

I believe they were pulled up these ramps 300' at a time by counterweights but

they were used to get stone to the base. The question all along has really been

how did they get stones to the top and ramps make not only a lousy answer but an

wholly unevidenced answer. In light of the fact that there is substantial contra-

dicting evidence they appear to simply be the wrong answer.

I should avoid ramp arguments but... I don't believe they could work in a cont-

rolled fashion as you suggest. I can't imagine how many men would drop from heat

stroke and the amount of maintenance required. There's no configuration that could

reach the top and the pyramid would be virtually hidden by the ramps making it im-

possible to built it straight. The workmen's village only holds some 8000 people

and it would take multiples of this to do the work with ramps. They had to maintain

55 HP for 30 years at 100% efficiency and I can't believe this is possible with ramps.

Houdin's theory isn't denied by the evidence like most ramp theories. I doubt it's

correct but it's a viable theory. I don't believe spiral ramps are a viable theory

and at the risk of sounding insulting to some famous egyptologists, I think people

might have a good laugh someday that these were still considered in the 21st century.

We all make laughable errors.

I can still be wrong but corroboration is irrelevent. The only thing relevent is

how they actually built the great pyramids.

[Experimentor]

Hello All,

One time a few years ago I read a detailed report, supposedly from Herodotus, that the pyramids were built with boats! Paraphrasing: they built the moat first after they had tapped into the water table below, then the whole pyramid was built with a series of letting water in and out as needed. He explained how they used the canal attached to the pyramid to let the water escape down to the Nile.

I've looked online but couldn't find a reference to Herodotus's story I had previously read. If anyone knows where I can find this again, I would like to read it again.

I was recently looking at a diagram of the pyramid complex and noticed "pits" in several places. I searched around on the net and saw that these were "boat pits" and ironically was mentioned that the boats found inside had a water displacement value of 36 tonnes! I wondered if these boats were the ones mentioned by Herodotus. It does seem weird that boats would be there at all if not instrumental in some way.

Also incidentally, I am convinced that the entire Giza pyramid plateau was a single building complex which would make it millions of more stones than is usually bandied about regarding the building of the Great Pyramid alone.

All the best,

Experimentor

[Cyaneyed]

Quoting a post I made in 2007, which sums up my present belief about the GP:

I'm working around a theory of my own that the GP has been either rebuilt, or was constructed in 2/3 stages. To do this I have used geometry where I maintained the 51.6 degree (I would put the degree symbol but I am on my laptop and have no right hand num keys)angle.

By maintaining this angle and using the QC and KC central lines as axis, I have found that smaller pyramids could have existed which perfectly meet key points. For example, one possibility perfectly meets the point where the Prism stone would have blocked the ascending passage, and where the QC shafts are known to extend to.

Given that Sneferu failed to create the 'perfect' 51.6 degree pyramid, it would make sense to build the GP in careful stages rather than go all out and risk the same errors Sneferu encountered (well not him personally..). It's easy to assume that just because it's so perfect now, they knew it would be that way when it was being mapped out.

I am not one to make any beliefs, but I like to iron out ideas and put them forward. I think that the prism stone could have originally sealed the pyramid itself, and could have been pivotting, so that once the pyramid was opened, the ascending passage was itself blocked off.

Rebuilding also could explain several things, such as why the pyramid is empty and why the QC shafts are blocked. I put forward the idea that the shafts were not symbolic, but used for construction within the chambers themselves. Once the stage of completion was reached, or the rebuilding commenced, they were sealed and the KC shafts were maintained because construction was now at a higher point and they would be extended to reach the ultimate height we see today. It is my supposition that (bland as it may seem) nothing lies beyond the QC shafts at all.

The astronomical significance of their positioning seems difficult to believe for me. If shafts are meant to point at certain stars, why would they kink? If they are supposed to carry the King's soul, why were they in seperate, perhaps/perhaps not sealed off rooms, why were the shafts themselves sealed off, and why would they not penetrate the pyramid itself? Certainly inclusive of the original limestone casing, they would likely have not been apparent.

I also see the KC as a decoy, and believe that if Khufu does lie within the GP, he is in the region of the less mentioned 'grotto'. This goes with the idiom 'The body to the Earth, Spirit to the sky'. The mound (perhaps symbolic of the primeval mound) which the pyramid rests upon, from what I have read, was almost certainly a place of worship long before the pyramid was built.

As I'm posting in the presence of some very knowledgeable people on this subject, I'd love to hear what people think of my idea.

Also, there are some nuances about the GP which I have never heard explained, and very rarely heard mentioned. For instance, in the QC Niche, explorers dug a tunnel a few feet back, culminating in a 'bell shaped hollow'. I've always wondered whether the 'bell shaped hollow' was merely the result of the explorer's impatience, and their creation, or whether it was already there, as the shape is relevant to Osiris?

Also, I personally like the spiral construction hypothesis, as it explains the grand gallery's functionality quite nicely. However, if the GG was not for this purpose, I'm most intrigued by the granite boss in the antechamber.

To quickly summarise my theory:

1. Pre-Giza settlement, pyramidal mound used as place of worship.

2. Sneferu's bent pyramid at Dashur used as inspiration.

3. First stage of GP built. Same angle, with subterranean passage (matching traditional pyramids at the time).

4. Second stage of pyramid completed; KC is central, faux tomb constructed. Unique roofing used in KC to test stress relief.

5. Third stage is completed; QC is now central to the apex.

6. Khufu tomb sealed somewhere near grotto. Passageway to grotto crudely dug out later by plunderers.

My theory doesn't do much to explain many nuances and, like any theory, there are more question marks than answers. But I've just never believed in the KC as the real tomb of Khufu, the way it was discovered alone seems to contradict the possibility.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Cyaneyed

[cladking]

Quoting a post I made in 2007, which sums up my present belief about the GP:

As I'm posting in the presence of some very knowledgeable people on this subject, I'd love to hear what people think of my idea.

Also, there are some nuances about the GP which I have never heard explained, and very rarely heard mentioned. For instance, in the QC Niche, explorers dug a tunnel a few feet back, culminating in a 'bell shaped hollow'. I've always wondered whether the 'bell shaped hollow' was merely the result of the explorer's impatience, and their creation, or whether it was already there, as the shape is relevant to Osiris?

Also, I personally like the spiral construction hypothesis, as it explains the grand gallery's functionality quite nicely. However, if the GG was not for this purpose, I'm most intrigued by the granite boss in the antechamber.

To quickly summarise my theory:

1. Pre-Giza settlement, pyramidal mound used as place of worship.

2. Sneferu's bent pyramid at Dashur used as inspiration.

3. First stage of GP built. Same angle, with subterranean passage (matching traditional pyramids at the time).

4. Second stage of pyramid completed; KC is central, faux tomb constructed. Unique roofing used in KC to test stress relief.

5. Third stage is completed; QC is now central to the apex.

6. Khufu tomb sealed somewhere near grotto. Passageway to grotto crudely dug out later by plunderers.

My theory doesn't do much to explain many nuances and, like any theory, there are more question marks than answers. But I've just never believed in the KC as the real tomb of Khufu, the way it was discovered alone seems to contradict the possibility.

Just a couple of observations;

I'd never heard this so-called robbers tunnel from the so-called queens chamber

ended in a bell shape. Thanks.

I'm not sure why you believe these things or if there's some coherence but for

the main part I don't see why they can't be true. The Bent Pyramid did pre-date

Khufu's Pyramid.

The passage to the grotto appears to have been preexisting to the pyramid. Part

of the underground section is natural cavern and part of the above ground section

is built pyramid above about the 15th course. They tunned through about 15 layers

of pyramid to get to the grotto from above.

I hope this doesn't damage your theory.

[Cyaneyed]

Just a couple of observations;

I'd never heard this so-called robbers tunnel from the so-called queens chamber

ended in a bell shape. Thanks.

I'm not sure why you believe these things or if there's some coherence but for

the main part I don't see why they can't be true. The Bent Pyramid did pre-date

Khufu's Pyramid.

The passage to the grotto appears to have been preexisting to the pyramid. Part

of the underground section is natural cavern and part of the above ground section

is built pyramid above about the 15th course. They tunned through about 15 layers

of pyramid to get to the grotto from above.

I hope this doesn't damage your theory.

Not at all. The grotto tunnel is perhaps the most confusing part for me. As I mention I believe that the preexisting mound was of great significance. This is where I suffer from a lack of decent schematics, as the grotto is often left out.

However, as the grotto is tunneled to above and below (as it meets the subterranean passage), and in such a crude fashion, it's hard for me to accept it as there by design. I've heard unrealistic stories about Khufu's body being lowered and/or raised through this 'secret passage' so as to conceal the fact the pyramid had been plundered (through the obvious corridors), and while that does make sense in a way, I think it illogical to make the rest of the pyramid obsolete in such a fashion (though you could argue that since no mummy has ever been found or accounted for, this explanation could be legitimate).

But if the tunnel was preexisting, how does it raise into the pyramid in the same manner? And if it wasn't there already, why did it not stop at the grotto, why did it continue to the descending passage? More questions than answers here. Muy perplexing.

As far as why I believe this, put it down to too much time staring at the pyramid's geometry. It's entirely my own theory and I have no back up save for my own opinions.

I'll try and find corroboration on the bell shape for you. I have a diagram in a book that I can scan.

Thanks for the reply

Edited March 13, 2010 by Cyaneyed

[cladking]

Not at all. The grotto tunnel is perhaps the most confusing part for me. As I mention I believe that the preexisting mound was of great significance. This is where I suffer from a lack of decent schematics, as the grotto is often left out.

However, as the grotto is tunneled to above and below (as it meets the subterranean passage), and in such a crude fashion, it's hard for me to accept it as there by design. I've heard unrealistic stories about Khufu's body being lowered and/or raised through this 'secret passage' so as to conceal the fact the pyramid had been plundered (through the obvious corridors), and while that does make sense in a way, I think it illogical to make the rest of the pyramid obsolete in such a fashion (though you could argue that since no mummy has ever been found or accounted for, this explanation could be legitimate).

But if the tunnel was preexisting, how does it raise into the pyramid in the same manner? And if it wasn't there already, why did it not stop at the grotto, why did it continue to the descending passage? More questions than answers here. Muy perplexing.

As far as why I believe this, put it down to too much time staring at the pyramid's geometry. It's entirely my own theory and I have no back up save for my own opinions.

I'll try and find corroboration on the bell shape for you. I have a diagram in a book that I can scan.

Thanks for the reply

I'll try to get back to you later on a couple other points.

I'm curious how this bell shape orients to the tunnel. I knew there was an

enlargement at the end since I've seen discussion of people eating there

lunches here but had assumed it was nondescript. My understanding is the

tunnel bears to the north a little near its end.

My primary question here is does the tunnel enter the top, middle, or bot-

tom of the bell shape?

[cladking]

Not at all. The grotto tunnel is perhaps the most confusing part for me. As I mention I believe that the preexisting mound was of great significance. This is where I suffer from a lack of decent schematics, as the grotto is often left out.

The grotto is of intense interest to me as well since I believe this

was the primordial mound. I believe it's the Eye of Horus referred to

in the coffin texts with a diameter of 7 cubits and a pupil of 3 cubits.

I used to have a few really good drawings and pictures of this on my old

computer but haven't relocated them all yet. The best is the one by the

Edgar Brothers. I'll look later.

However, as the grotto is tunneled to above and below (as it meets the subterranean passage), and in such a crude fashion, it's hard for me to accept it as there by design. I've heard unrealistic stories about Khufu's body being lowered and/or raised through this 'secret passage' so as to conceal the fact the pyramid had been plundered (through the obvious corridors), and while that does make sense in a way, I think it illogical to make the rest of the pyramid obsolete in such a fashion (though you could argue that since no mummy has ever been found or accounted for, this explanation could be legitimate).

There is also a "silo" which is partt of this. Where the solid earth

meets the pyramid there is a 12' or so tall silo that separates the

grotto from the pyramid. This is vertical and there is a void on both

sides of the structure.

But if the tunnel was preexisting, how does it raise into the pyramid in the same manner? And if it wasn't there already, why did it not stop at the grotto, why did it continue to the descending passage? More questions than answers here. Muy perplexing.

Apparently the grotto was there and there was a tunnel down from it even

before the pyramid was begun. The silo probably was not there but this is

a tough call. The bottom of the passage connects to the descending passage

near the point that it flattens out to join the subterranaean chamber which

belies the idea that it's purpose was ventilation in this lowest chamber.

The silo was built and then they built pyramid right over the entire thing

until about the 15th course when the passage was added again. At some point

they tunneled through the 15 courses laid over the grotto to connect this all

back up with the bottom of the grand gallery. I'm nearly able to incorporate

these facts into my own theory but, unfortunately, few people seem very con-

cerned with the facts themselves so explanations of them carry little weight.

As far as why I believe this, put it down to too much time staring at the pyramid's geometry. It's entirely my own theory and I have no back up save for my own opinions.

I'm never too proud to steal parts or all of other peoples' ideas so keep 'em

coming.

I'll try and find corroboration on the bell shape for you. I have a diagram in a book that I can scan.

I should would appreciate detail (even more than substantiation)(if it's imp-

ortant enough I can find substantiation).

[yatri]

Hi all, I've been browsing these forums for a while now and one thing I've noticed on the Pyramid threads is that the views and theories seem concerned with where? how? and why? Could I suggest that folks with the time and inclination build scale models of the Great Pyramid, align the sides north to south and experiment away to their hearts content. Not for nothing was the pyramid razorblade sharpener patented at the turn of the 20th century. Go on folks try it, you might be surprised with the results.

Great forum by the way, a big up to all the posters.

[Cryptozological Mascot]

I have been inside of the Great Pyramid. This does not, however, make me an authority on the subject, but a mere observer. First of all, the use of Infrared cameras to discover hidden tunnels is completely pointless, as IR cameras merely project IR light onto an object and then record the light that has been bounced back (as does an ultraviolet camera and visible spectrum camera). To record the variances in heat (which yes, is transmitted through IR radiation from solar radiation), you would simply need a FLIR.

The real question remains of how the pyramids where built. Upon my observations, there were no apparent mechanical motives behind it (again, I’m not an expert and I’m only referring to known sciences). I could only surmise that the pyramid was built by use of weights and counterweights much like our modern cranes (though there is only one crane in the world that can currently lift the weight of some of those blocks). I believe that the sealed spaces were simply so that the builders could have room for adjustment and that the blocks could expand in the intense heat of the day and contract with the cold of the night, preventing them from breaking and tumbling.

If you truly, truly want to know the best theory that I’ve ever heard on why it was built, then try reading Gram Hancock’s Mystery of the Sphinx. Some people would say that his theories don’t count since he’s not an archeologist or scientist. Although he hadn’t had the classical training of history’s best guessers, he does provide an overwhelming amount of evidence to back up his claims as it being built strictly for religious purposes.

Lastly, having been in the pyramid myself, I would venture to say that it was actually hotter inside than outside of it and that the Grand Hallway and tunnel to the King’s Chamber (which the latter of the two had to be duck-walked or crawled) was at a very steep angle. Presuming that the ramps would have been roughly at the same angles, it would have made a daunting task near impossible and highly impractical!

[FlatBrokeRA]

really? there's actually people that think humans orchestrated the pyramids? REALLY?

[Abramelin]

If you truly, truly want to know the best theory that Ive ever heard on why it was built, then try reading Gram Hancocks Mystery of the Sphinx. Some people would say that his theories dont count since hes not an archeologist or scientist. Although he hadnt had the classical training of historys best guessers, he does provide an overwhelming amount of evidence to back up his claims as it being built strictly for religious purposes.

Graham Hancock is about the worst of sources you can come up with.

He doesn't provide an overwhelming amount of evidence, he provides on overwhelming amount of conjecture, based on nothing but his preferrred 'belief': Aliens, or a ice age super civilization built the pyramids.

.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Abramelin

[kmt_sesh]

I might amend Abramelin's post in stressing it's not all that important in the end that Graham Hancock is not a formally trained and vetted Egyptologist or archaeologist. I mean, that is indeed the ideal--proper schooling and training generally produce the most reliable results--but most important are the sources to which one turns for research. Hancock does not observe extant evidence and, like most other fringe authors, bases his arguments on speculation and slight of hand. I myself might not say Hancock is the worst of sources (in that regard think of Sitchin, von Däniken, and various other cranks) but he is certainly far, far, far from being one the best.

A note on weights and counterweights. There was nothing in the technology of Old Kingdom Egypt akin to the pulley. In fact, this device is not known to have entered Egypt till the Roman Period, clear on the opposite end of the historical timeline. In the Old and Middle kingdoms there was a primitive device we call the proto-pulley, but it would not have worked to lift many tons of masonry (it was a simple device of wood or stone with grooves through which rope passed). Rather, it would have been useful for the positioning of masonry, but not for the lifting of it. Moreover, the hemp-fiber ropes of Egypt did not possess great tensile strength and could not have long supported tons of dead weight.

[cladking]

A note on weights and counterweights. There was nothing in the technology of Old Kingdom Egypt akin to the pulley. In fact, this device is not known to have entered Egypt till the Roman Period, clear on the opposite end of the historical timeline. In the Old and Middle kingdoms there was a primitive device we call the proto-pulley, but it would not have worked to lift many tons of masonry (it was a simple device of wood or stone with grooves through which rope passed). Rather, it would have been useful for the positioning of masonry, but not for the lifting of it. Moreover, the hemp-fiber ropes of Egypt did not possess great tensile strength and could not have long supported tons of dead weight.

There appear to be several tools mentioned in the Pyramid Texts. I've pre-

viously suggested that the wAs-sceptre was used to operate the djed and have

found a few more I believe.

I've long been a little concerned that the ropes at the sides of the pyramid

top would wear rapidly and be subjected to a lot of friction. But the egypto-

logists are always saying that they couldn't have had the wheel and these are

not obvious in the texts. The wheel was in reality invented more than a thou-

sand years before they believe the pyramids were built and a pulley is a lit-

tle simpler than the wheel. It is simply absurd to deny the Egyptians could

have the pulley. Then they want us to believe that the so-called proto-pulleys

could be configured so as to take the place of a pulley. They could not be

used as a pulley and no one ever invented a pulley a little at a time. This

is the height of absurdity.

They called the pulley a dm-sceptre. The guides for the main pulleys were

hts-sceptres, and the shm-sceptre was the deflector above the Upper Eye of

Horus which deflected the water into the Nurse Canal or mn-canal in the

Mehet Weret Cow.

Here's what gave it away;

1483b. ’Ims;.ti, H[];pi, Dwu;-mw.t.f, Kbh-s;n.w.f,

1483c. who live on truth, who lean upon their d'm-sceptres,

The Gods are the four sons of Horus who each tend one side of pyramid con-

struction. Mercer often translated "ma'at" as "truth" wherein I already knew

it was often "balance".

These Gods live on "balance" and lean upon their "pulleys".

It appears that some more of these sceptres will probably be descipherable

but so far I have only these and the dm-cord which would appear to be the

main rope. All these are likely to be machine parts.

It's ironic that somewhere the word for objects of power became a word for

instruments of magical power.

[ShadowSot]

really? there's actually people that think humans orchestrated the pyramids? REALLY?

Yep, we've got proof it was all financed by a guy named Eddy.

[cladking]

I have been inside of the Great Pyramid. This does not, however, make me an authority on the subject, but a mere observer. First of all, the use of Infrared cameras to discover hidden tunnels is completely pointless, as IR cameras merely project IR light onto an object and then record the light that has been bounced back (as does an ultraviolet camera and visible spectrum camera). To record the variances in heat (which yes, is transmitted through IR radiation from solar radiation), you would simply need a FLIR.

Don't forget that in the winter when it's extremely cold that heat

will also flow out of the pyramid. The absorption of heat during

hot weather would not be nearly as interesting but might prove ex-

actly where the tops of the steps are.

I believe that the sealed spaces were simply so that the builders could have room for adjustment and that the blocks could expand in the intense heat of the day and contract with the cold of the night, preventing them from breaking and tumbling.[/size][/font]

Normally thermal expansion in stone is rather minimal. Otherwise

the exposed surface of stone would break up.

If you truly, truly want to know the best theory that I’ve ever heard on why it was built, then try reading Gram Hancock’s Mystery of the Sphinx. Some people would say that his theories don’t count since he’s not an archeologist or scientist. Although he hadn’t had the classical training of history’s best guessers, he does provide an overwhelming amount of evidence to back up his claims as it being built strictly for religious purposes.

I personally believe the only reason people believe everything was

related to religion is a gross misinterpretation of the Pyramid Texts

caused largely by the fact that the later culture evolved in that di-

rection and most of what we know of them came from tombs and temples.

Lastly, having been in the pyramid myself, I would venture to say that it was actually hotter inside than outside of it and that the Grand Hallway and tunnel to the King’s Chamber (which the latter of the two had to be duck-walked or crawled) was at a very steep angle. Presuming that the ramps would have been roughly at the same angles, it would have made a daunting task near impossible and highly impractical!

They draw in hot air now from the kings chamber for ventilation.

[booNyzarC]

really? there's actually people that think humans orchestrated the pyramids? REALLY?

I'm laughing... really I'm laughing pretty hard right now...

But no, seriously. If it wasn't humans, who was it? Please do tell.

[kmt_sesh]

There appear to be several tools mentioned in the Pyramid Texts. I've pre-

viously suggested that the wAs-sceptre was used to operate the djed and have

found a few more I believe.

The was and djed were not tools. Nothing in the archaeological record would support that argument. We have a very good understanding of the actual tools used by masons, carpenters, builder-scribes, shipwrights, and others involved in materials and industry, and neither the was nor the djed can be represented. They were logographic emblems used for the purposes of socio-religious iconography, almost exclusively pertaining to deities or the deceased or a combination of both. In a sense one might see the was and djed as tools but for religious symbolism, certainly not for building.

I've long been a little concerned that the ropes at the sides of the pyramid

top would wear rapidly and be subjected to a lot of friction. But the egypto-

logists are always saying that they couldn't have had the wheel and these are

not obvious in the texts.

I am not aware of a single Egyptologist or other credible historian who has stated such a thing, at least in the last century. Archaeological evidence clearly shows the wheel existed among these early Near Eastern civilizations, right down to the "feet" of children's animal pull-toys dating to the archaic period. But were wheels used for industry? Perhaps on carts to pull produce and the like, but certainly not for hauling masonry. That much is undeniable.

[kmt_sesh]

I personally believe the only reason people believe everything was

related to religion is a gross misinterpretation of the Pyramid Texts

caused largely by the fact that the later culture evolved in that di-

rection and most of what we know of them came from tombs and temples.

Later culture? Maybe this is true of the Book of the Dead and other netherworld texts coming to the fore in the New Kingdom, although their ties to earlier texts is obvious. There was very little change in meaning and almost none in purpose. But more to the point, Coffin Texts were being used at the same time as the Pyramid Texts, and no one can deny that the Coffin Texts were drawn directly from the Pyramid Texts. The Coffin Texts were in use clear past the Middle Kingdom, to be replaced for the most part by the Book of the Dead.

So what we have, from the Pyramid Texts on, is clearly a steady line of funerary texts evolving and changing but never quite broken. And from the Pyramid Texts on, they were used almost exclusively for funerary needs. No misinterpretation exists. The purpose of all of these texts is too obvious to misinterpret.