Circumcision should be a crime

[Neognosis]

And you seem to assume that most cut males feel that someone did something cruel to them. I can't see anyone but yourself supporting this position.

I wish it was not done to me.

It's not always easy determining a woman's level of skankness. They can be very good at deceiving men or down right lying to them in most cases.

I do my part to keep clean. It's the least they can do in return.

Or you can just always wear a condom if you are not in a monogamous relationship.

[danielost]

I had 12 fingers when I was born and they snipped them off at the same time as the *winkie* got snipped. I imagine I wasn't a happy camper for awhile afterwards LOL

you probable didnt even know it happened.

[danielost]

One of these is classified as cruel despite the victim having no recollection, trauma, or slightest memory of it occurring.

Well...so what? Why would someone who is cut want to restore their foreskin?

And you seem to assume that most cut males feel that someone did something cruel to them. I can't see anyone but yourself supporting this position. Heck, you've even had some people tell you they are happy it got done.

Getting cut as an infant is simpler and better than getting cut as an adult, and choosing to get it restored is somewhat nonsensical.

this argument reminds me of tonsils. for those who dont know generally the older you are when/if they remove them the harder it is on you. in the case of me and my brothers i broke the rule. my father decided that since i needed mine out we would all three have it done at the sametime. when we woke up the nurses told us not to cry and it would be easier on us, so i didnt cry my two younger brothers did. the docs said i could go home that evening, but my dad left me with my brothers since it wouldnt be fair for me to go home and for them not too.

[The Silver Thong]

you probable didnt even know it happened.

No I don't remember a thing. I was taken from my birth mother as she was a drunk and I was born with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrom) Mild deformity that took 2 min to fix. I was told about and I do have scars where my fingers where. Growing out the sides of my pinkies.

[ohio traveler]

Or you can just always wear a condom if you are not in a monogamous relationship.

I actually did pick up a box of them recently. But I found a site that gives reviews and the ones that I got didn't seem to fair very well. I might toss them out and go for some different ones.

[Neognosis]

simply because you don't remember something does not mean it was not traumatic.

[The Silver Thong]

simply because you don't remember something does not mean it was not traumatic.

I imagine it was traumatic for me but I have had much more traumatic memories of being hurt far worse later in life.

[Neognosis]

I don't doubt that.

Ultimately, we decided not to circumcise our son because we live in a society with soap and running water, and it came down to not wanting to cut a piece of our son's penis off.

[danielost]

simply because you don't remember something does not mean it was not traumatic.

how could something be traumatic if you dont know it happened. he wouldnt even have known about the extra fingers if he hadnt been told. his parents could have just told him that he had cut himself when he was to young to remember.

although from personal memmory i do know that not everything from birth day has to be forgotten. i still remember my first thought and i remember seeing shadows moving about. dont remember anything else.

[Neognosis]

Because the trauma occurred and you felt it then. I broke my collarbone when I was 2. I don't remember the pain, but I'm relatively sure that I was in pain and that I didn't like it.

[The Silver Thong]

how could something be traumatic if you dont know it happened. he wouldnt even have known about the extra fingers if he hadnt been told. his parents could have just told him that he had cut himself when he was to young to remember.

although from personal memmory i do know that not everything from birth day has to be forgotten. i still remember my first thought and i remember seeing shadows moving about. dont remember anything else.

I had a spinal tap done about 10 years ago and they gave me a drug so I wouldn't remember the procedure as I guess they are quit painful. My parents and ex were there and they said I screamed during the whole thing but I can't remember it for the life of me. Weird stuff man.

[aquatus1]

You also fell down a well and were left there in the dark for 3 days. Boy, you must be all sorts of messed up in the head from that one! And don't forget that tiger attack when you were 2. That would give anyone nightmares.

[gabe]

Well...so what? Why would someone who is cut want to restore their foreskin?

And why the **EDIT** would someone want to get cut in the first place? It's the same thing to me.

**Chill, Gabe. We're all having fun here. Don't spoil it.**

A study done by CIRP shows that of 123 men who got circumcised only 7% did so personal choice, the others did it to treat preexisting conditions,and Even with preexisting conditions 38€ were that dissatisfied with getting cut, so unless it's the only option, I can't see why anyone would want to get it done.

for most there's no significant medical benefit either way and the majority seem to be happy with how their willies look, cut or not. The only ones that should care about this are the ones that aren't happy and want it changed. I don't know their motives but it doesn't matter, what matters is that those that are cut will have a harder time changing it.

Until I know how many in the general population are happy with being circumcised or not, I can't really see the benefit one way or another.

And even if the person has no memory of it, I still find it crueler than if it had never been done, because it is painful in the moment.

edit:

i didnt know we could surgically reattach nerve endings after they had been removed for what 18 years.

You can't, which is what I was saying

Edited March 8, 2010 by aquatus1

[The Silver Thong]

You also fell down a well and were left there in the dark for 3 days. Boy, you must be all sorts of messed up in the head from that one! And don't forget that tiger attack when you were 2. That would give anyone nightmares.

Hey man I'm not here to convince you of anything just sharing some stories is all and if you think I'm a liar so be it pal.

[danielost]

And why the **** would someone want to get cut in the first place? It's the same thing to me.

A study done by CIRP shows that of 123 men who got circumcised only 7% did so personal choice, the others did it to treat preexisting conditions,and Even with preexisting conditions 38€ were that dissatisfied with getting cut, so unless it's the only option, I can't see why anyone would want to get it done.

for most there's no significant medical benefit either way and the majority seem to be happy with how their willies look, cut or not. The only ones that should care about this are the ones that aren't happy and want it changed. I don't know their motives but it doesn't matter, what matters is that those that are cut will have a harder time changing it.

Until I know how many in the general population are happy with being circumcised or not, I can't really see the benefit one way or another.

And even if the person has no memory of it, I still find it crueler than if it had never been done, because it is painful in the moment.

you know who it seems to be cruel too is you not your kid. you dont want to "hurt" your kid so you wont do anything you think might hurt him. which is a good thing, but remember at some point you have to let go. and that will probable before he grows up and gets married.

[Space Commander Travis]

simply because you don't remember something does not mean it was not traumatic.

that's the kind of argument that the whole "alien abduction" industry is based on. or the "primal screme therapy" and all that stuff. I know screme isn't spelled like that, but I forgot temporarily how it is. Anyway, my point is, what about the whole process of being born in the first place? How would that compare for trauma?

Edited March 8, 2010 by 747400

[aquatus1]

And why the **EDIT** would someone want to get cut in the first place? It's the same thing to me.

Because it looks good. And as a parent, I want my child to look good.

A study done by CIRP shows that of 123 men who got circumcised only 7% did so personal choice,

Why is that a surprise? Infants don't get choices, and few adults would willingly put their winkies on the chopping block.

the others did it to treat preexisting conditions,and Even with preexisting conditions 38€ were that dissatisfied with getting cut,

Again, no surprise. Having to surgically modify your body because of a medical condition rarely leads to being happy about it.

so unless it's the only option, I can't see why anyone would want to get it done.

Because when its done as an infant, it's a non-event, but when it's done in adulthood, it can be traumatic, or at least painful and unsatisfying.

And even if the person has no memory of it, I still find it crueler than if it had never been done, because it is painful in the moment.

You can't, which is what I was saying

Hey man I'm not here to convince you of anything just sharing some stories is all and if you think I'm a liar so be it pal.

Sorry, that was meant as a response to Neo, not you. You posted right before I did.

Incidentally, it has nothing to do with lying. It's a comment on how traumatic events that are not remembered aren't really all that traumatic.

[The Silver Thong]

Sorry, that was meant as a response to Neo, not you. You posted right before I did.

Incidentally, it has nothing to do with lying. It's a comment on how traumatic events that are not remembered aren't really all that traumatic.

Gotya no worries mate. I do agree there is no trauma to remember at that age and for however long people have been snipping I can't recal ever hearing of a child growing up with post traumatic stress disorder from a cicumcision.

[Neognosis]

you know who it seems to be cruel too is you not your kid. you dont want to "hurt" your kid so you wont do anything you think might hurt him.

why is "hurt" in quotes? do you not think that it is causing a child pain?

Anyway, my point is, what about the whole process of being born in the first place? How would that compare for trauma?

sounds like you are saying that since being born is traumatic, we should now worry about causing any more trauma to a newborn. I don't buy in to that logic.

Because it looks good. And as a parent, I want my child to look good.

That is very subjective and cultural, though.

I can't recal ever hearing of a child growing up with post traumatic stress disorder from a cicumcision.

does something have to cause PTSD in order to be recognized as painful?

Would you go through another spinal tap if you were told you would not remember it?

[The Silver Thong]

does something have to cause PTSD in order to be recognized as painful?

Would you go through another spinal tap if you were told you would not remember it?

If the doctors said I needed one I would have no choice but to go through another spinal tap as I don't remember how painfull it was. I can tell you I would not be pleased to have to do it again. I never did say it had to cause PTSD just that at such a young age the trauma isn't as bad imo.

Edited March 8, 2010 by The Silver Thong

[gabe]

Because it looks good. And as a parent, I want my child to look good.

But this is the same reason someone would want foreskin restored, because it looks good, it's a matter of personal taste.

few adults would willingly put their winkies on the chopping block.

but what I want to know is if there are fewer who'd want their winkies chopped off than restored.

Having to surgically modify your body because of a medical condition rarely leads to being happy about it.

point taken. I'd want to find a study done on healthy participants, but I couldn't.

Because when its done as an infant, it's a non-event, but when it's done in adulthood, it can be traumatic, or at least painful and unsatisfying.

Infant circumcision is less cruel than adult circumcision, we agree on that. What we disagree on is whether infant circumcision is less cruel than no circumcision at all.

it's an event during the time that it's happening, it can't be considered cruel afterward because there is no recollection, but it can be considered cruel in the moment, which still makes it crueler than if it never happened.

It's not that important in this debate. The reason I brought it up was just to remind you that, as you said, adult circumcision is rare (at least when it's voluntarily), so NOT getting circumcised as a kid doesn't mean that you have to endure a more painful procedure later in life.

What is important is not how rare or common it is, but how rare or common it is for the opposite to be true. I know that more adult circumcision is done than adult restoration, but the restorative is still largely unknown and ineffective. So the question is more like: How many on one side are satisfied with the condition of their penis, contra the other, and how easy would it be for either side to change that condition?

[The Silver Thong]

If we conducted a poll I would have to vote for circumcision for myself. Of course it seems cruel to intentionaly hurt a baby but babies heal much better and faster than adults do. Kids are a lot tougher than we give them credit for.

[hetrodoxly]

It is also being done to promote homosexuality and push the gay agenda because most gay men prefer uncut.

I've been giving this some thought and i think it's the other way around surely only a gay man would worry if his Willie was pretty?

XXX

[Neognosis]

If the doctors said I needed one I would have no choice but to go through another spinal tap as I don't remember how painfull it was. I can tell you I would not be pleased to have to do it again. I never did say it had to cause PTSD just that at such a young age the trauma isn't as bad imo.

So even though you don't remember the pain, you acknowledge that it was still painful and would not want to do it again unless you had to.

Infant circumcision is less cruel than adult circumcision, we agree on that

I don't agree on that. I don't think recollecting an event or not has anything to do with whether it is cruel or not.

Newborns don't remember it because their brains are not ready to store long term memories yet.

I think that this is an issue not for legislation, but for education.

And I can tell you from an emotional standpoint, there was no way in hell I was going to let them strap my son to a plastic board and cut part of his penis off. We aren't wandering a sandy desert with no fresh water.....

To me, it seemed barbaric, and we refused to have it done. If you remove all the cultural attitudes, the bottom line for us was that we would be cutting part of our son's penis off. We couldn't find a good enough reason to do that.

[Neognosis]

If we conducted a poll I would have to vote for circumcision for myself. Of course it seems cruel to intentionaly hurt a baby but babies heal much better and faster than adults do. Kids are a lot tougher than we give them credit for.

I would vote "no" for myself. I wish I was not circumcised. I don't care that I don't remember it or that I was tough and healed fast... they cut part of my penis off. That seems crazy to me.