[Merged] Dyatlov Pass incident

[Pol_Pot_Lives_Again]

Ghost avalanche?

[Drago]

Yep I just realized somebody else voted for that. *facepalm* - even government conspiracy is more likely that that option.

We are talking about the government of the Soviet Union. It could realistically be argued the entire system of government was a self-inflicted conspiracy on itself. There was almost no interdepartmental communication, and almost everyone involved at any level was just as likely to sit on information they thought was important until they could pass it on themselves to whatever higher-up they felt the need to brown-nose at the moment.

[Mr.United_Nations]

i think its Cannblism

[stereologist]

When people say avalanche they think of the large airborne and massive events seen in movies. Avalanches are scary. They make an enormous sound. Thinking that a large slide was about to overwhelm a camp at night could certainly scare a party into abandoning a camp they believe is about to be buried. They might have abandoned the camp only to realize later that the camp was still partially intact because the avalanche missed or barely impacted the camp.

The story does not sound like anything more than another mountaineering tragedy.

[TheSearcher]

When people say avalanche they think of the large airborne and massive events seen in movies. Avalanches are scary. They make an enormous sound. Thinking that a large slide was about to overwhelm a camp at night could certainly scare a party into abandoning a camp they believe is about to be buried. They might have abandoned the camp only to realize later that the camp was still partially intact because the avalanche missed or barely impacted the camp.

The story does not sound like anything more than another mountaineering tragedy.

Quite good theory that, I like it. Under the circumstances, it would explain most of what had been found.

[Isensee]

We are talking about the government of the Soviet Union. It could realistically be argued the entire system of government was a self-inflicted conspiracy on itself. There was almost no interdepartmental communication, and almost everyone involved at any level was just as likely to sit on information they thought was important until they could pass it on themselves to whatever higher-up they felt the need to brown-nose at the moment.

I don't think TheSearcher was dissing the government conspiracy option as much as he was the werewolf/vampire one. I've already mentioned somewhere in the many posts in this thread about the incident not being a top secret one or at least cleared of any confidentiality after some investigation by the Soviet institutions. Although I agree they did put a lid on many many things that don't make sense right now.

[TheSearcher]

I don't think TheSearcher was dissing the government conspiracy option as much as he was the werewolf/vampire one. I've already mentioned somewhere in the many posts in this thread about the incident not being a top secret one or at least cleared of any confidentiality after some investigation by the Soviet institutions. Although I agree they did put a lid on many many things that don't make sense right now.

The fact that we on the other side of, the once existing, iron curtain only heard about it, after the fall of said curtain, doesn't mean anything. We were the enemy after all. It would have been typical of the soviet machine, to make the most trivial thing a secret towards us, just to spite us.

[1963]

When people say avalanche they think of the large airborne and massive events seen in movies. Avalanches are scary. They make an enormous sound. Thinking that a large slide was about to overwhelm a camp at night could certainly scare a party into abandoning a camp they believe is about to be buried. They might have abandoned the camp only to realize later that the camp was still partially intact because the avalanche missed or barely impacted the camp.

The story does not sound like anything more than another mountaineering tragedy.

Except,that there was no signs of avelanche anywhere near the whole area! Not even in Thesearcher's exellent link! SO, I think that we have all gone off track a little here.. and are straying away from the true mystery in this case!!! And that is. why would a group of sensible 'twenty somethings' students, all of whome were familiar with the situation of camping out in the wilds,at lethal temperatures, savagely rip to pieces their one and only life saving tent?....Not only that!, but be mind bendingly terrified enough to flee into the arctic conditions in the dark almost naked !!! Not only this.. but don't forget that they were accompanied by a thirty seven year old proffetional !! [babysitter if you like!]???? No! Theres more, much more to discover about this mystery yet !!

[stereologist]

How are you so sure that:

1. there was no avalanche

2. the mountaineers damaged the tent

Mountains 'talk'. By talk I mean mountains make all sorts of sounds due to rockfall and snowfalls. These events are commonplace.

You ask some simple questions and the answer to that is simple if you have ever been mountaineering. If you believe that if you remain where you are you will be destroyed, you move and you move fast.

[1963]

How are you so sure that:

1. there was no avalanche

2. the mountaineers damaged the tent

Mountains 'talk'. By talk I mean mountains make all sorts of sounds due to rockfall and snowfalls. These events are commonplace.

You ask some simple questions and the answer to that is simple if you have ever been mountaineering. If you believe that if you remain where you are you will be destroyed, you move and you move fast.

Have you even read the exellent link that Thesearcher provided some time ago? The one that states that there was no avalanche! Not Then! and Not for 100 expeditions to the same area since Then!! AND that the Dyatlov campsite is not avalanche ground! And, that Igor Dyatlov,himself was an experienced mountaineer/skier, and that Alexander Zolotarev,was a 37years old ski/tour instructor(professional travel guide) and was with the party to gain the points needed for promotion tothe rank of Master Instructor!! thus, would never be foolish enough to set up camp anywhere near such dangers!! The report also states, that the tent was NOT damaged by snow, or snow movement! And that the tent was, torn to shreds from within! (or words to that effect!) And So!.. My original question remains! What on earth could have been so freakishly scary, as to induce 9 adventurouse, healthy, sane (I presume) adults, to flip out in such a lethally lunatic manor, and commit, what amounts to mass suicide!!!!

[stereologist]

I read one or more links that were provided in this thread. The fact that someone is experienced mountaineer means what? Are you serious that this person could not make a mistake in the mountains? Clearly, you are not a mountaineer. Clearly, you have not read about all of the famous mountaineers swept away by avalanches. You have not read about huts that have been in 'safe' places and hit and destroyed or heavily damaged by avalanches. I clearly stated that the avalanche caused a near miss of the site. So I am calling your statements into question. I think you are guessing. In the mean time I'll look for the link you mentioned.

[stereologist]

I looked over the link and it was pretty good. It does not disagree with my statement. The other links led me to believe that the party could NOT have been hit by an avalanche. The tent condition and the fact that the bodies were not buried suggests that the party was not hit by an avalanche. But you don't have to be hit by an avalanche to think that you are going to be hit by an avalanche.

[1963]

I looked over the link and it was pretty good. It does not disagree with my statement. The other links led me to believe that the party could NOT have been hit by an avalanche. The tent condition and the fact that the bodies were not buried suggests that the party was not hit by an avalanche. But you don't have to be hit by an avalanche to think that you are going to be hit by an avalanche.

That point would be conceded, if it was likely that the Dyatlov site was a avalanche prone area; but my reading of the facts, as laid out in the report, leads me to the conclusion that,'this was probably not the case in this instance!' And so I conclude that there must have been a 'different factor' at work in this,'most puzzeling' of mysterys.!! P.S. You are correct in your assumption that I am NO MOUNTAINEER!! (just an inquizative little so and so!) So,! I wonder, Stereologist, use your imagination and logic; and tell me.... if it was nothing to do with avalanche's (even if you really still think it was!) Then what on earth, could have caused this sort of deathly panic ??

[stereologist]

It was fairly obvious to me that you had never been in the mountains. I used to that in a "previous lifetime" as my wife says. Just because the place cannot be hit by an avalanche does not mean that people who died did not know that. They arrive in conditions that are harsh. Visibility is down. They could easily have been fooled into thinking that a crushing death was bearing down on them.

People make all sorts of mistakes in the mountains. The slide might not have been near them. It could have been a rock fall for all we know. One rockfall I experienced in the southern Sierra Nevada seemed to shake our ridge. My partner was convinced that it did. He was ashen. Eventually dust came out of the crossed one ridge, then ours, and continued north. The rockfall wasn't even that close and yet it was strongly felt where we stood. It's dark. You're not sure where you made camp. In the middle of the night you are awaken by a strong vibration in the ground. You hear a deafening roar which you think is headed right at you. You freak.

I met a party on Ranier. They were walking across a flat section when they heard this roar of falling rock. They thought it coming right at them. It was midnight and their headlamps didn't show them what was coming. Smash. Lots of broken bones in the group. Lucky for them it was a weeny rock fall. They told me that they thought they were about to be covered in a debris avalanche.

I read this story and see nothing more than a mountaineering accident in which everyone died, but a tale in which the bodies were recovered. Lots of people disappear without a trace.

I remember climbing in Yosemite and I had just done a long route. The next day the rangers were asking us about a missing party. They had started after us so we had not seen them on the way up. But we were the last ones down the descent route since we had continued to climb another climb above the first. We did not see the missing party. Here is Yosemite which is crowded. No one can find a missing party of 4. The next day the rangers come back and ask us more questions. The third day there are helicopters fly over the area looking for the lost. Everyone is wondering how 4 people can disappear in Yosemite from one of the most crowded dog paths in the Valley. On day 4 the mystery is solved. The team of 4 was so slow they topped out at sunset. Afraid to do the descent at time, a very wise decision on their part, they decide to hike out, a bad decision on their part. It took them 3 days 2 wander out of the woods and to a road. Somehow they managed to cross at least 2 major hiking trails without seeing them and ended up in Tuolumne.

In summary, mountains are really scary and yes weird things can happen even in crowded places like Yosemite.

[stereologist]

Hey 1963 just because I've seen some weird, but in a wacky sense normal things in the mountains does not mean that your input is in any way not important. Every, and I mean every person that goes on a high end trip has a different experience. If we didn't we would all decide to screw it and watch TV. I appreciate your input.

[the rebirth]

this is the tent as it was discovered. i would be most likely to believe the avalanche theory, albeit a quite small one.

[Samuronin]

this is the tent as it was discovered. i would be most likely to believe the avalanche theory, albeit a quite small one.

The bodies were found about 2 months later, enough time for snow to build up..

[TheSearcher]

@ Stereologist & 1963 : You both might actually be correct. I would summise that the sound of an avalanche, could cause a moment of panic. They might have thought, due to the sound, that a massive avalanche was about to roll over the camp, even if the avalanche in question was miles away.

I know that in rough or mountainous terrain, sound can play a number on you, due to distortion or amplification thereoff. An avalanche could be the culpritt, without any evidence being found.

[1963]

Hey 1963 just because I've seen some weird, but in a wacky sense normal things in the mountains does not mean that your input is in any way not important. Every, and I mean every person that goes on a high end trip has a different experience. If we didn't we would all decide to screw it and watch TV. I appreciate your input.

"Cheers Buddy!" The sentiment, is reciprecated! ( but i still say, it was something else!)

[stereologist]

Searcher when I was actively climbing I used to say that avalanches and big rockfalls do one of two things. They either kill you or scary the living daylights out of you. If the lost party in Yosemite had starved to death they might still be lost making their disappearance a big story to discuss. Mysterious disappearances happen. There was a famous unsolved case on New York's Mt Marcy. Happened decades ago. Young guy hiking by himself, probably off trail, at night under the full moon was never seen again. Signs were up for years.

About the undressing episode. If you recall the plane that landed in the Hudson after hitting birds, one of the passengers appeared on the wing in his underwear. He was interviewed on the radio. It seems he decided that wet clothes would make him cold so he stripped down while still inside the plane. Completely different situation, but that's an event I thought of the other day.

[Leonardo]

About the undressing episode. If you recall the plane that landed in the Hudson after hitting birds, one of the passengers appeared on the wing in his underwear. He was interviewed on the radio. It seems he decided that wet clothes would make him cold so he stripped down while still inside the plane. Completely different situation, but that's an event I thought of the other day.

Having done a fair bit of mountaineering/hiking in my youth I can say with some confidence that one does not (unless lacking any sense) take off wet clothes in a tent at altitude with the temp around -18^oC. Said clothes will freeze and be next to useless for keeping warm the next day for at least a few hours of wearing them to use body heat to dry them out a little. Okay, you can take the clothes off and place them in your sleeping bag to keep them from freezing, but that is equivalent to wearing them without the benefit of doing so, it makes no sense.

It makes no sense that any of the Dyatlov Pass group removed their clothes, but people make mistakes and it could be as simple as that.

Did this party have only one tent, or several?

Was only one tent cut through the sides?

If multiple tents, did the others have the entrance flaps still tied?

Were any of the party actually familiar with Dyatlov Pass and (presumably) knew it was not avalanche territory?

Did the search/rescue party find any trace the party had any alcohol with them?

Edited March 25, 2010 by Leonardo

[stereologist]

Were any of the party actually familiar with Dyatlov Pass and (presumably) knew it was not avalanche territory?

One of the links suggests that the party was not headed in their intended direction and set up camp on the side of the mountain.

It seems they planned to get over the pass and make camp for the next night on the opposite side, but because of worsening weather conditions, snowstorms and decreasing visibility, they lost their direction and deviated west, upward towards the top of Kholat Syakhl. When they realized their mistake, the group decided to stop and set up camp there on the slope of the mountain.

So they did not know the location of their camp. Also, there is no evidence one way or the other if their clothes were wet or dry.

I think a lot of the questions you pose are actually in the supplied links. Check out the first page of this thread and a later one by theSearcher.

[OldTimeRadio]

It was an unfortunate hiking accident which can easily be explained. They were the unfortunate victims of an avalanche and hypothermia. The reason they were partially dressed can be explained by paradoxical undressing..

You could very well be correct, but it begs the question of why experienced hikers/skiers, properly garbed, apparently under blankets and inside tents so easily fell victim to hypothermia in the first place.

And does hypothermia strike all victims identically and all at once? Human physiologies don't normally function in such a clockwork lock-step fashion.

[TheSearcher]

You could very well be correct, but it begs the question of why experienced hikers/skiers, properly garbed, apparently under blankets and inside tents so easily fell victim to hypothermia in the first place.

And does hypothermia strike all victims identically and all at once? Human physiologies don't normally function in such a clockwork lock-step fashion.

All depends on their general condition when they set up camp. Were they already having the onset of hyporthermia at that point? Had they reached their breaking point? That's all speculation now, as we'll never know.

[stereologist]

Years ago I saw a slide show about climbing and mountaineering in the Soviet Union. It was quite interesting. The speaker described a system where the people had to effectively go through some steps to advance to the next level. You'd be prevented from doing certain activities without having accomplished the prerequisites. That's very different from mountaineering here today in the US or Europe. If the speaker was correct, then there might be records out there of what the participants had done before this trip. For example, the experiences many of the people might have been lots and lots of fair weather skiing, or day trips, but not long term bad weather trips such as the one they were on. Maybe they had heard avalanches during the day and were on edge going into the night. We'll never know.

Imagine you are part of this party. It's stormy. You'll been doing some mountaineering for a few years. This is your biggest trip out there. Unlike other trips the weather is bad and looks like it will be bad for a few more days. You keep hearing these weird sounds. You're fairly sure they are avalanches a ways off. There is some debate going on about where you are. You don't want to get closer to the avalanches. Then again you don't want to get lost. Some people want to go a slightly different direction. Finally you realize you are not in the spot you want to be. You set up camp still not sure of your location. Maybe there have been tantalizing glimpses of a nearby peak and some people are afraid that you are camped in an avalanche path. Some people might say the campsite is safe.

All I'm trying to do here is to paint a simple picture of a group that gets edgy because of a lack of agreement amongst its members. In the dark and cold and the storm and the arguments within the group several people panic and make a tragic decision to flee the safety of their camp.