2012... Supramental Beings..

[SlimJim22]

Well, there are no prophecies associated with 2012, and secret wisdom of the Maya? Are we going to have a new age of human sacrifice are we? And no there is nothing in astrology to say that it could do anything to our consciousness, we won't all suddenly produce different hormones because of a change in date.

Thanks for contributing Matt you know I value your opinion. So, I think there are prophecies that relate to 2012 it just depends whether you believe the people touting them are frauds or not, doesn't it? We've been into that before and it is not relevant to the points at hand. Suffice to say 2012 is allegedly the dawn of an new age. In previous times a change occasionally coincides with a cataclysm. That doesn't mean it is immediate it can a couple of hundred years or so after but the new age signiies the start of a fundamental change not the fundamental change itself.

Why bring human sacrifice in to it? You do make me laugh, I think we are past the point of throwing people into crocodile pits so as to appease the gods and have a good harvest. No, we are talking about getting to grips with the science that we don't fully comprehend. Filling in the gaps in our knowledge. That which we don't yet know and that wich has been hidden but is now resurfacing on the internet. And don't try and bring this or than person into it. There are more and more people evryday realizing these things and bringing it to the table in a worthwhile way so don't try and use the occassional frauds to discredit the whole area of reserach.

Even the science of evolutionary psychology is open to the prospect of, let's call it 'advancement potential' the laws of natural selection and cause and effect are still in play, yes? So, if our environment is changing which it is and has been forever, then so can we as and when the laws of nature or evolution dictate.

If you study the mysteries then you will be able to answer the last question by yourself.

[crystal sage]

Wow! I look forward to reading those links when I have more time. I think you will find the link below of particular interest I know I did. I have only found the site today so don't know how credible it is yet but it does seem to match up with a lot of things in this thread. Enjoy.

http://www.pufoin.com/

Thanks... will explore... lots of interesting info/theories here...

[Mattshark]

Thanks for contributing Matt you know I value your opinion. So, I think there are prophecies that relate to 2012 it just depends whether you believe the people touting them are frauds or not, doesn't it? We've been into that before and it is not relevant to the points at hand. Suffice to say 2012 is allegedly the dawn of an new age. In previous times a change occasionally coincides with a cataclysm. That doesn't mean it is immediate it can a couple of hundred years or so after but the new age signiies the start of a fundamental change not the fundamental change itself.

Well, look who says it is the dawn of a new age, generally it is people just making stuff up, or relying on limited knowledge.

People have never changed like that before and we are not going to do so know, the human mind isn't going to change by some arbitrary date

Why bring human sacrifice in to it? You do make me laugh, I think we are past the point of throwing people into crocodile pits so as to appease the gods and have a good harvest. No, we are talking about getting to grips with the science that we don't fully comprehend. Filling in the gaps in our knowledge. That which we don't yet know and that wich has been hidden but is now resurfacing on the internet. And don't try and bring this or than person into it. There are more and more people evryday realizing these things and bringing it to the table in a worthwhile way so don't try and use the occassional frauds to discredit the whole area of reserach.

The Maya liked their human sacrifice that is why.

No, what the internet is surfacing is a lot of junk mate, it is the worlds biggest source of BS.

Even the science of evolutionary psychology is open to the prospect of, let's call it 'advancement potential' the laws of natural selection and cause and effect are still in play, yes? So, if our environment is changing which it is and has been forever, then so can we as and when the laws of nature or evolution dictate.

Well, if you consider that a science. I personally don't! Social change takes time and natural selection is not involved and biological evolution can only take place across generations, not within one.

If you study the mysteries then you will be able to answer the last question by yourself.

The problem is that there is no mystery.

[SlimJim22]

Well, look who says it is the dawn of a new age, generally it is people just making stuff up, or relying on limited knowledge.

People have never changed like that before and we are not going to do so know, the human mind isn't going to change by some arbitrary date

The Maya liked their human sacrifice that is why.

No, what the internet is surfacing is a lot of junk mate, it is the worlds biggest source of BS.

Well, if you consider that a science. I personally don't! Social change takes time and natural selection is not involved and biological evolution can only take place across generations, not within one.

The problem is that there is no mystery.

Have you not heard of the long count?

I don't understand how you can claim we have not changed as a species. We have been progressing since the walls of Jericho were first set up. Since the dawn of christianity which funnily enough came during an alleged change of astrological age and Jesus himself is said to have used the same symbol as his own, our progression has moved on at an increased rate. Sure there was the end of the Roman empire and the subsequent dark ages but darkness followed by light is all part of the motion of evolution imo. Following ages the mind of man was developing constantly, the Rennaissance and all it's art and literature, the age of reason with the advances in science and governance. I am not a historian so I can't give as good a breakdown as I'd like but I hope you see my point. It is capped off by the industrial reovlution and all the achievements made in the 20th century like air travel and the space age. The 21st century is bringing new areas to the table, quatum physics is finally getting away from theory and into practice so there is a possibility that in the not too distant future dimensional travel or travel in spacetime could become achievable. Technology evolves as we do.

The early Maya, who introduced the Mayan calendar as the Olmecs as early as 2,000bce but no later than 600bce had no interest in sacrifice. Over a millenia passed and many of the teachings had become lost or distorted by the name the need for sacrifice was taken. If the crops are failing and you cannot sustain a population you cannot blame the primitive people for taking a gamble and trying to appease the gods. This could well have been with great remorse they did the sacrifices but the alternative would have been for every one to starve, which they eventually did. If it could be shown that the Maya used the ball game in choosing the sacrifice it does not seem quite as barbaric. In fact may I suggest that it was the victors who were given the privelege of being sacrificed as a great honour to the god.

I don't know enough about EP to debate the ins and outs of it being a science or not but the truth is scientists are unsure as to how the human mind really works. They say we only use 10% or something but they don't know why that is.

As for there not being a mystery, if you say so bud but wouldn't you be dissappointed if there was and you were just too stubborn to consider it.

[Mattshark]

Have you not heard of the long count?

Yes, it ain't a prophesy though. The Maya had no prophesy. It is just a calender.

I don't understand how you can claim we have not changed as a species. We have been progressing since the walls of Jericho were first set up. Since the dawn of christianity which funnily enough came during an alleged change of astrological age and Jesus himself is said to have used the same symbol as his own, our progression has moved on at an increased rate. Sure there was the end of the Roman empire and the subsequent dark ages but darkness followed by light is all part of the motion of evolution imo. Following ages the mind of man was developing constantly, the Rennaissance and all it's art and literature, the age of reason with the advances in science and governance. I am not a historian so I can't give as good a breakdown as I'd like but I hope you see my point. It is capped off by the industrial reovlution and all the achievements made in the 20th century like air travel and the space age. The 21st century is bringing new areas to the table, quatum physics is finally getting away from theory and into practice so there is a possibility that in the not too distant future dimensional travel or travel in spacetime could become achievable. Technology evolves as we do.

Socially yes, behaviourally, not that much really.

Nothing to do with evolution in the slightest though, sorry.

The early Maya, who introduced the Mayan calendar as the Olmecs as early as 2,000bce but no later than 600bce had no interest in sacrifice. Over a millenia passed and many of the teachings had become lost or distorted by the name the need for sacrifice was taken. If the crops are failing and you cannot sustain a population you cannot blame the primitive people for taking a gamble and trying to appease the gods. This could well have been with great remorse they did the sacrifices but the alternative would have been for every one to starve, which they eventually did. If it could be shown that the Maya used the ball game in choosing the sacrifice it does not seem quite as barbaric. In fact may I suggest that it was the victors who were given the privelege of being sacrificed as a great honour to the god.

Well it is hard to find a culture that didn't sacrifice around those periods quite frankly.

It all shares a Zapotec history too from the same region and similar period and they did sacrifice and there is some evidence that the Olmec did too, they definitely went for bloodletting.

I don't know enough about EP to debate the ins and outs of it being a science or not but the truth is scientists are unsure as to how the human mind really works. They say we only use 10% or something but they don't know why that is.

No, that is a huge myth, we know at least one use for every single part of the brain and we know a great deal of what a lot it does. Most of the brain is actually used for keeping us alive.

As for there not being a mystery, if you say so bud but wouldn't you be dissappointed if there was and you were just too stubborn to consider it.

Not really, I like real mysteries, not ones that rely on people making things up or ignoring evidence.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Mattshark

[SlimJim22]

Yes, it ain't a prophesy though. The Maya had no prophesy. It is just a calender.

Socially yes, behaviourally, not that much really.

Nothing to do with evolution in the slightest though, sorry.

Well it is hard to find a culture that didn't sacrifice around those periods quite frankly.

It all shares a Zapotec history too from the same region and similar period and they did sacrifice and there is some evidence that the Olmec did too, they definitely went for bloodletting.

No, that is a huge myth, we know at least one use for every single part of the brain and we know a great deal of what a lot it does. Most of the brain is actually used for keeping us alive.

Not really, I like real mysteries, not ones that rely on people making things up or ignoring evidence.

As I said when you started, there is a prophecy, you and your friends just aren't willing to consider all the Pacal Votan stuff. I think there is merit to this theory though it is complicated.

Who is to say that we will not socially evolve further, we already are with the massive growth in cyber culture. Isn't it evolution that you and I are having this conversation when we could not have a decade or two ago.

To my mind technology is an extension of mankind so therefore any future advances we make are intimately involved with our ever increasing consciousness. We do not evolve as individuals but as a society. Alternatively, society must evolve before the individuals can, I doubt it is the other way around but it is possible.

Considering my point about the ball game being linked to sacrifice, and it being the Olmecs who introduced it, I am only slightly surprised that they did perform occassional sacrifices. Because they revered the underworld so greatly it is a distinct possibility that a sacrificial death was the greatest honour one could have. They were going to die eventually so why not go out with the biggest party going, I am sure the women would make themselves very grateful before hand.

We know some things about the brain but not that much about the spiritual aspects, dreams or the subconscious. I don't mean we know nothing just not much compared to the biological functiong. The endocrine is one of the lesser known about bodily systems, the doctors can't sort a thyroid problem without about half a dozen assessments. Rubbish! It's not really like the law of ethics allow for a whole load of human brain research and animal test results can't really be generalized. Do they dice up dolphin brains when they get an opportunity?

I like Columbo but I reckon you are more of a Poirot kind of a guy, am I right?

[Mattshark]

Because there is no reason to accept the Pacal Votan stuff, ever wondered why it the those who are not educated in the field that do accept it?

Social evolution still hasn't changed our behaviour as individuals though, that is the point, people everywhere are pretty much the same no matter what culture and conditions the live in. Importantly, only populations, not individuals can evolve biologically.

Yes, it may have been an honour, the Olmec infant sacrifices probably not so much.

Well as someone who has studied behaviour, I find sticking spiritual stuff in with science rather insulting, it is conjecture and quite frankly most of it seems to come from a lack of understanding of how the brain works. None of it requires spiritual explanations, and we know enough about the brain to understand how behavioural changes can be triggered and none existent galactic alignments are certainly not in there.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Mattshark

[SlimJim22]

Because there is no reason to accept the Pacal Votan stuff, ever wondered why it the those who are not educated in the field that do accept it?

Social evolution still hasn't changed our behaviour as individuals though, that is the point, people everywhere are pretty much the same no matter what culture and conditions the live in. Importantly, only populations, not individuals can evolve biologically.

Yes, it may have been an honour, the Olmec infant sacrifices probably not so much.

Well as someone who has studied behaviour, I find sticking spiritual stuff in with science rather insulting, it is conjecture and quite frankly most of it seems to come from a lack of understanding of how the brain works. None of it requires spiritual explanations, and we know enough about the brain to understand how behavioural changes can be triggered and none existent galactic alignments are certainly not in there.

Are you denying that there is to be any sort of alignment or a specific change in relation to our position to the Dark Rift?

Earlier in the thread I did make a distinction whereby I said an individual could have 'advancement potential' that could be changed with ascension or enlightenment I expect. This may not be biological fact yet but neither can it be ruled out.

Lots of cultures have performed sacrifice infant or otherwise, there's no good singling out any one specific people as good or bad I'm sure you agree. Individuals can be either but not cultures themselves so it is not really relevant. We are talking about there maths and calendar which suggest they were part of a greater global culture. See my previous link

Again you can't say for sure either way. There is a lot to science we are just starting to figure out to do with sound and light and vibrations. If 2012 has anything to do with the frequency of the galaxy shifting slightly then who is to know how such an effect could effect the entire solar system not just us. Of course it is conjecture because none of this can be proved in a lab but neither can it be disproved so while nobody is getting hurt, what is the harm in people trying to improve themsleves? Don't you think it is strange how many people are getting into this stuff in one way or another? I mean from yoga to abduction stories there has been a steady but marked increase in this kind of behaviour. Therefore by your reasoning as a people we are evoving to be more healthy, sustainable, technological and spiritual are we not?

[TheSearcher]

Slim, remember this little discussion we had? Pacal Votan is an invention of a con man, honestly I'm not afraid to call it what it is, a load of BS, not even worthy of your attention.

Like I said before, charging $9.95/month to $499.95 for enlightenment is a con. If you buy into it, then don't be surprised that people either call you naive or silly.

Edited March 22, 2010 by TheSearcher

[Emma_Acid]

Man alive, this things really grown legs.

Are you denying that there is to be any sort of alignment or a specific change in relation to our position to the Dark Rift?

The Great Rift has nothing to do with earth. Its 300 light years away and is a bunch of huge gas clouds. We have no "relation" to it, other than the massive distance, so its completely irrelevant.

Earlier in the thread I did make a distinction whereby I said an individual could have 'advancement potential' that could be changed with ascension or enlightenment I expect. This may not be biological fact yet but neither can it be ruled out.

Yes it can be ruled out - that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Lots of cultures have performed sacrifice infant or otherwise, there's no good singling out any one specific people as good or bad I'm sure you agree. Individuals can be either but not cultures themselves so it is not really relevant. We are talking about there maths and calendar which suggest they were part of a greater global culture. See my previous link

I think Matt mentioned sacrifice in relation to the Maya as it was the Maya calendar which is the source of all this silliness.

Again you can't say for sure either way. There is a lot to science we are just starting to figure out to do with sound and light and vibrations.

Such as?

If 2012 has anything to do with the frequency of the galaxy shifting slightly then who is to know how such an effect could effect the entire solar system not just us.

Galaxies don't "shift slightly". They are all moving through space at tremendous speeds.

Of course it is conjecture because none of this can be proved in a lab but neither can it be disproved so while nobody is getting hurt

Its worse than "conjecture", its pure fiction.

what is the harm in people trying to improve themsleves?

Because this sort of BS is damaging. It's damaging to people's ability to sort out fact from fiction, to be able to think critically, and don't even get me started on subjects like little girls committing suicide because they think the world will end in 2012.

Don't you think it is strange how many people are getting into this stuff in one way or another?

Nope, not at all. A person is clever, but people are stupid - and simply because a lot of people buy into it doesn't make it any less BS. In the 17th century, much of the population of Europe thought that the plague was spread by Jews. Does this suddenly have any credence to it, just because a lot of people bought into it?

Therefore by your reasoning as a people we are evoving to be more healthy, sustainable, technological and spiritual are we not?

We aren't "evolving" to be healthy, sustainable, technological or spiritual. Evolution has nothing to do with it.

[SlimJim22]

Man alive, this things really grown legs.

The Great Rift has nothing to do with earth. Its 300 light years away and is a bunch of huge gas clouds. We have no "relation" to it, other than the massive distance, so its completely irrelevant.

Yes it can be ruled out - that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I think Matt mentioned sacrifice in relation to the Maya as it was the Maya calendar which is the source of all this silliness.

Such as?

Galaxies don't "shift slightly". They are all moving through space at tremendous speeds.

Its worse than "conjecture", its pure fiction.

Because this sort of BS is damaging. It's damaging to people's ability to sort out fact from fiction, to be able to think critically, and don't even get me started on subjects like little girls committing suicide because they think the world will end in 2012.

Nope, not at all. A person is clever, but people are stupid - and simply because a lot of people buy into it doesn't make it any less BS. In the 17th century, much of the population of Europe thought that the plague was spread by Jews. Does this suddenly have any credence to it, just because a lot of people bought into it?

We aren't "evolving" to be healthy, sustainable, technological or spiritual. Evolution has nothing to do with it.

I'm honoured by your presence Emma.

Is a gas cloud the same as a nebulous? There is a chance that new wave frequencies could be projected or something else that I am equally failing to understand. I don't know what will happen and the truth is neither do you, so how can you say it is irrelevant or whatever?

Surely the various religious traditions could be seen as substantial evidence for this.

Yes. We started about the Mayan calendar that I asserted was likely brought by the Olmecs and then Matt started using the old psuedo skeptic argument of them being backward savges that made sacrifices and this is where we will return if you listen to the likes of me, sorta thing. The fact is that the Maya's probably resorted to sacrifice in greater numbers when the climate changed and they suffered drought. The Aztecs were far more into sacrifice so I don't think bringing sacrifice into a discussion about a calendar has any merit.

In another thread I am trying to learn about nanoparticles, this is just one example, there are others.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't talking a shift in space as you say galaxies are constantly moving. What I meant was a shift in frequency of vibration. Does that help?

Art mirrors reality.

You don't seem to be getting me at all. I am saying it could be the start of a new and positive age so why would people think the world will end. That is what the media is putting out there not the sort of stuff I have reffered to.

People are stupid if they cannot recognize the changes taking place all around them.

By Matt's definition of evoltuion it was centred around behaviour, that is why I explained how our behaviour is adapting to our changing environment. It will not change overnight as you know that is not how evolution works. It will take centuries through natural selection but who will be the ones most suited to the future and best able to thrive. I reckon they will be the people who are more healthy, who produce the least waste, use the most advanced technology and have a spiritual side that makes them have a strong social conscience and live moral lives with little prejudice.

That's just my view of the possible Utopia.

Search, I recall our conversation all to clearly. You drew my attention to Jose Arguelles. I will not be parting with any cash and you don't need to to educated yourself on this subject. I could provide a good link but it's not really worth it, is it? I respect your opinion greatly and I am not convinced one way or the other but I will continue to research ALL the possibilities and make connections where possible.

[bigdaddyinge]

first thing i gotta say is "wow", emma. that is about as direct and no-nonsense a reply as you can give. gotta love it! this whole thing with 2012 is just grand scale fear-mongering. will something happen on dec. 21 2012? who knows. maybe. maybe not. there is not a single shred of evidence that points to that date having more of a chance of catastrophe than next wednesday. or two months from now. or any other point in time that anyone can "predict". i personally think that dec. 21, 2012 WILL bring on something..... that being dec. 22nd! when nothing happens, these 2012 threads will just be replaced with the next END OF THE WORLD prophesies that become en vogue. do all you people not remember june 6, 2006? or jan 1, 2000? or any of the other countless, ridiculously prophesized END OF THE WORLD dates? well, as far as i see, hasn't happened yet, and probably won't in 2012 just because the mayan calendar makers ran out of rock.

[SlimJim22]

first thing i gotta say is "wow", emma. that is about as direct and no-nonsense a reply as you can give. gotta love it! this whole thing with 2012 is just grand scale fear-mongering. will something happen on dec. 21 2012? who knows. maybe. maybe not. there is not a single shred of evidence that points to that date having more of a chance of catastrophe than next wednesday. or two months from now. or any other point in time that anyone can "predict". i personally think that dec. 21, 2012 WILL bring on something..... that being dec. 22nd! when nothing happens, these 2012 threads will just be replaced with the next END OF THE WORLD prophesies that become en vogue. do all you people not remember june 6, 2006? or jan 1, 2000? or any of the other countless, ridiculously prophesized END OF THE WORLD dates? well, as far as i see, hasn't happened yet, and probably won't in 2012 just because the mayan calendar makers ran out of rock.

What's with the end of the world stuff? You only ever here that from the skeptics trying to debunk the legitimacy of the new age theory because they can't accept atrology as having any influence on man. Try this link it is pretty easy to get.

http://www.13moon.com/prophecy%20page.htm#5

[bigdaddyinge]

What's with the end of the world stuff? You only ever here that from the skeptics trying to debunk the legitimacy of the new age theory because they can't accept atrology as having any influence on man. Try this link it is pretty easy to get.

http://www.13moon.com/prophecy%20page.htm#5

ok. here's a quote from sciencedaily.com....

The Mayan calendar was designed to be cyclical, so the fact that the long count comes to an end in December 2012 is really of no consequence, according to Martin. Simply, it is the end of great calendar cycle in Mayan society, much like our modern society celebrated the new Millennium. It does not mean that the "world will end." In fact, the Mayan calendar does not end then and there is no evidence to suggest that the Mayans -- or anyone for that matter -- has knowledge for the world's demise.

and i'll see your link and raise you another....mayan calender

[Mattshark]

What's with the end of the world stuff? You only ever here that from the skeptics trying to debunk the legitimacy of the new age theory because they can't accept atrology as having any influence on man. Try this link it is pretty easy to get.

http://www.13moon.com/prophecy%20page.htm#5

That is because there is no evidence to suggest stuff, and since new agers tend to be no better than creationists in terms of academic fraud and pseudo-science and have just as much evidence, why should it be accepted?

[bigdaddyinge]

That is because there is no evidence to suggest stuff, and since new agers tend to be no better than creationists in terms of academic fraud and pseudo-science and have just as much evidence, why should it be accepted?

HERE! HERE!

[SlimJim22]

That is because there is no evidence to suggest stuff, and since new agers tend to be no better than creationists in terms of academic fraud and pseudo-science and have just as much evidence, why should it be accepted?

You need not accept it and neither does anyone else who doesn't want to. It's alright to consider and respect the work being done in this field. The problem is that the message you'd like people to believe is that, we think 2012 is the END!!

That isn't gonna happen because we all know it is a beginning. All the 2012 prophecy will be over, no more doomsday... for a while at least. However, more and more people will be getting in tune with the spiritual side of existence and reaping the benefits of a change if lifestyle. If organized religion became more moderate and respectful the world could become a really good place naturally, simply by applying science in the right way where ever it was needed. Sadly, differences will be used as an excuse to carve up the worlds resources and hand control to the elite. That's what I forsee and it's no prophecy just common sense observations of how the world is going.

[Mattshark]

You need not accept it and neither does anyone else who doesn't want to. It's alright to consider and respect the work being done in this field. The problem is that the message you'd like people to believe is that, we think 2012 is the END!!

That isn't gonna happen because we all know it is a beginning. All the 2012 prophecy will be over, no more doomsday... for a while at least. However, more and more people will be getting in tune with the spiritual side of existence and reaping the benefits of a change if lifestyle. If organized religion became more moderate and respectful the world could become a really good place naturally, simply by applying science in the right way where ever it was needed. Sadly, differences will be used as an excuse to carve up the worlds resources and hand control to the elite. That's what I forsee and it's no prophecy just common sense observations of how the world is going.

Sorry mate, but the stuff people are coming out with doesn't deserve respect, it is not people spending years studying hard on science and history, working so many hour for limited pay and then some *insert expletive* sat on his bum just decides something sounds good and cool and feels it deserves respect? Or someone trying to make money out the naive? No, they don't and it is outright insulting to the people who work there arses off to think that these new idiots preaching crap and lies have opinions that are worth as much. Not all opinions are equal.

[bigdaddyinge]

You need not accept it and neither does anyone else who doesn't want to. It's alright to consider and respect the work being done in this field. The problem is that the message you'd like people to believe is that, we think 2012 is the END!!

That isn't gonna happen because we all know it is a beginning. All the 2012 prophecy will be over, no more doomsday... for a while at least. However, more and more people will be getting in tune with the spiritual side of existence and reaping the benefits of a change if lifestyle. If organized religion became more moderate and respectful the world could become a really good place naturally, simply by applying science in the right way where ever it was needed. Sadly, differences will be used as an excuse to carve up the worlds resources and hand control to the elite. That's what I forsee and it's no prophecy just common sense observations of how the world is going.

no, it isn't the end. nor is it the beginning of anything. 2012 will end up being nothing but the year between 2011 and 2013. no sudden mass enlightenment. no psychic transformations. no rise of superior, spiritually advanced humans or other beings. no return of annuki from nibiru. no end of the world. no coming of christ. no mass catastrophies or no holocaustic monstrocities. no beings of light. no galactic miracles caused from planetary alignment. there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING ANY OF THIS. just mass hysteria and grossly unwarranted speculation. oh, and lots of fear mongering. but hey, what do i and millions of other unenlightened folks know anyway?

[Marby]

Throughout history, people have decided whether it be because of religion, mysticism, or alleged prophecy, that either the end is coming, a new beginning is coming, that there will be some great shift in human consciousness, you name it. Not once has this panned out, and for good reason - that's not how the world works. People like to read into things, create patterns, and feel as though they have some control over the future. The control we have over the future is minimal at best.

The Mayan thing is particularly ridiculous because it's been so badly misinterpreted and so badly misused with so many "meanings" attached to it that it boggles the mind. Yet there is nothing to suggest that anything will happen or that the Mayans had some special knowledge that the rest of humanity doesn't. Nothing to see here. The calendar ended. A calendar, by the way, that no one has cared about or used since the Mayans were using it.

We've had the astrology talk before, but I will reiterate here. Astrology is pretty much bunk. It's not even credible as a pseudo-science. I've said this several times before, but you can apply any astrological reading to any random person and it will somehow apply because it's purposely vague. Even on the larger scale, when people claim that this or that has happened because it's the Age of Aquarius or whatever, it's because people cherry pick what they think fits. World events are not affected by astrology. Individuals are not affected by astrology. It doesn't hold up to close scrutiny at all.

[SlimJim22]

Sorry mate, but the stuff people are coming out with doesn't deserve respect, it is not people spending years studying hard on science and history, working so many hour for limited pay and then some *insert expletive* sat on his bum just decides something sounds good and cool and feels it deserves respect? Or someone trying to make money out the naive? No, they don't and it is outright insulting to the people who work there arses off to think that these new idiots preaching crap and lies have opinions that are worth as much. Not all opinions are equal.

I am sensing a lot of negativity Seriously though, I agree it is the scientists who do the hard work and provide legitamacy to theories. This is the way it should remain but science itself must progress, I think it would be most fitting if religion and spirituality was broken down and accepted as the effect of subtle energies between cosmos and man. We are just made of a load of chemical elements and amino acids and proteins so imo we are effected by all things in our environment. It is just so subtle that it is virtually unrecognizable. I don't like charalatans and won't fork out money on a whim when some writer says this or that. I won't discard what they say either though, i take value where I can and integrate it into a way that I can make practical improvements. I am extremely skeptical of the new age but some parts of it have real resonance for me. The other person who spoke about resonance at length was Tesla and he was a scientist but one who understood the subtle enrgy fields that have now been rediscovered and confirmed by the latest science.

[SlimJim22]

no, it isn't the end. nor is it the beginning of anything. 2012 will end up being nothing but the year between 2011 and 2013. no sudden mass enlightenment. no psychic transformations. no rise of superior, spiritually advanced humans or other beings. no return of annuki from nibiru. no end of the world. no coming of christ. no mass catastrophies or no holocaustic monstrocities. no beings of light. no galactic miracles caused from planetary alignment. there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING ANY OF THIS. just mass hysteria and grossly unwarranted speculation. oh, and lots of fear mongering. but hey, what do i and millions of other unenlightened folks know anyway?

You sound more crazy than the people making all the doomsday prophecy. Are you psychic? Can you see the future? No, then you do not know what will happen and to continue claiming you do only affirms the stupidity inherent in the pseudoskeptic viewpoint.

One thing for certain that is schedule for 21/12/2012 is Swan Sat going online. I don't know for sure if this is true or if it another ploy but considering my post to Matt and my other research I find this extremely significant. Do you watch Lost?

There is evidence supporting it but the establishment chooses to discredit or ignore entirely the basis of these claims. What would be needed to convince you that there was a slim chance that it is not all BS but a return to knowledge that we have forgotten through our separation from our environment?

Do you like the world you live in? Could it be improved? How?

The future is not written, we are the creators of our own world, or we should be at least.

[SlimJim22]

Throughout history, people have decided whether it be because of religion, mysticism, or alleged prophecy, that either the end is coming, a new beginning is coming, that there will be some great shift in human consciousness, you name it. Not once has this panned out, and for good reason - that's not how the world works. People like to read into things, create patterns, and feel as though they have some control over the future. The control we have over the future is minimal at best.

The Mayan thing is particularly ridiculous because it's been so badly misinterpreted and so badly misused with so many "meanings" attached to it that it boggles the mind. Yet there is nothing to suggest that anything will happen or that the Mayans had some special knowledge that the rest of humanity doesn't. Nothing to see here. The calendar ended. A calendar, by the way, that no one has cared about or used since the Mayans were using it.

We've had the astrology talk before, but I will reiterate here. Astrology is pretty much bunk. It's not even credible as a pseudo-science. I've said this several times before, but you can apply any astrological reading to any random person and it will somehow apply because it's purposely vague. Even on the larger scale, when people claim that this or that has happened because it's the Age of Aquarius or whatever, it's because people cherry pick what they think fits. World events are not affected by astrology. Individuals are not affected by astrology. It doesn't hold up to close scrutiny at all.

Consciousness has progressed through ages, even in the recent past we have moved from a analogue into a digital age. Our technology as I have said is an extension of man. The wheel, the spiral drill, metalurgy, all these things came at the right point in time for us to excel and grow as a species. It is just natural selection, we have adapted greater cognition and along with our opposable thumbs we can dominate our environment through cooperation.

I love it that our technology now is based on silicone and crystals and in the not too distant future will be cenred around nanoparticles. From what I understand of them thye are not even there half the time. Spooky. It all fits it with the Aquarian age for me at least but only time will tell. It may or maynot be appreciated with hindsight if there was any truth to it or mankind could remain very much dviided as we are now. I respect the view of all skeptics as they provide a valueable element for our overall understanding. I just hope they will not be too proud to compromise if the time is right.

on the subject of calendars. The Maya did not even use the loong count on a daily basis so why have it at all, that is the really big question...

[Mattshark]

I am sensing a lot of negativity Seriously though, I agree it is the scientists who do the hard work and provide legitamacy to theories. This is the way it should remain but science itself must progress, I think it would be most fitting if religion and spirituality was broken down and accepted as the effect of subtle energies between cosmos and man. We are just made of a load of chemical elements and amino acids and proteins so imo we are effected by all things in our environment. It is just so subtle that it is virtually unrecognizable. I don't like charalatans and won't fork out money on a whim when some writer says this or that. I won't discard what they say either though, i take value where I can and integrate it into a way that I can make practical improvements. I am extremely skeptical of the new age but some parts of it have real resonance for me. The other person who spoke about resonance at length was Tesla and he was a scientist but one who understood the subtle enrgy fields that have now been rediscovered and confirmed by the latest science.

Mate, I just completed an MSc in Animal Behaviour and that does include humans so of course I am going to be extremely negative about baseless claims. Believe me that there is nothing, literally nothing to support anything that is millions of light years away affecting our behaviour. Yes there are environmental influences, but the are ones that can be detected by our senses, not some mystic space energies that there is no evidence of, that is just as much pseudo-science as anything else.

The new age junk may have real resonance for you, but the reality is that it is no better than creationism.

[Marby]

Consciousness has progressed through ages, even in the recent past we have moved from a analogue into a digital age. Our technology as I have said is an extension of man. The wheel, the spiral drill, metalurgy, all these things came at the right point in time for us to excel and grow as a species. It is just natural selection, we have adapted greater cognition and along with our opposable thumbs we can dominate our environment through cooperation.

I love it that our technology now is based on silicone and crystals and in the not too distant future will be cenred around nanoparticles. From what I understand of them thye are not even there half the time. Spooky. It all fits it with the Aquarian age for me at least but only time will tell. It may or maynot be appreciated with hindsight if there was any truth to it or mankind could remain very much dviided as we are now. I respect the view of all skeptics as they provide a valueable element for our overall understanding. I just hope they will not be too proud to compromise if the time is right.

on the subject of calendars. The Maya did not even use the loong count on a daily basis so why have it at all, that is the really big question...

But see, here you are making the pure assumption that scientific and technological advance has to do with some greater consciousness - a greater consciousness that has no evidence to support that it even exists so even if it did exist, anything said of it can only be based on wild speculation. On top of that, you are suggesting that celestial bodies have something to do with all this, when we know that they don't. Astrology has been thoroughly debunked to the point where it's a not even worth mentioning. You are also assuming that because of the mystical as opposed to the very obviously scientific, we have collectively grown as a species, when in fact, much of our scientific advancement in many fields has no bearing on say, the tribal people from the Amazon who have no contact with the outside world. Are you claiming that they are not evolving? This brings me to another point that I will illustrate with the proper definition of natural selection, letting it speak for itself - from biology.com:

Definition

noun

A process in nature in which organisms possessing certain genotypic characteristics that make them better adjusted to an environment tend to survive, reproduce, increase in number or frequency, and therefore, are able to transmitgenerations. and perpetuate their essential genotypic qualities to succeeding

Supplement

It is the process by which heritable traits that increase an organism's chances of survival and reproduction are favoured than less beneficial traits. Originally proposed by Charles Darwin, natural selection is the process that results in the evolution of organism.

While natural selection may help an organism to better survive in its environment, it really just boils down to the very basics of survival, and nothing more.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support that we are in any sort of age, dictated by the position of stars in the sky, the moon, or the sun. There is no reason, evidence, or motivation to care about the Mayan calendar outside of a historical/archaeological context.

While it's all very impressive that science has come so far and keeps going further, lets give it the proper credit and let it stand alone rather than attaching the mystical to it. It only cheapens it to do so.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Marby