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trancelikestate

why disapprove of a us health care system

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acidhead

but it wouldnt cost that much per person overall.

would you rather pay thousands of dollars for having a broken arm, or would you rather have everyone pay a few dollars extra a week in taxes instead?

That's the best excuse supporters of universal healthcare can come up with.... 'it saves less than 50% of the population money'

Those who agree with this are the selfish ones.... they in reality are only looking out for themselves and their depleting wallet.

Who can afford an extra few dollars per week?... WHO?... have you or any healthcare support mongerer ever look at the economy for the past 2 years???????????

The economy is in free fall... the 2 giant stimulus did nothing for the average person but temporarily save his investments which had NOTHING to do with the MAJORITY.

So instead the majority picks up the pieces for the minorities who were ignorantly and deceptively conned.

Face it - everybody has been duped..... america is bankrupt.

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theGhost_and_theDarkness

How about this idea, government address the issue why Health Care cost keeps going up?

Instead of taking over an industry and centralization.

Tell us when did health care ever become a human right? So you are telling me someone who smoke a pack a day, eats all the fatty food and lays down all day, he is born with the right to be taken care of others for his behavior's consequence?

I've seen some cruddy people, but I have yet to encounter one that you described.

What about the person with a genetic disease? Or a person who got sick from say, asbestos, or other environmental factors beyond their control? These people far outweigh (no pun intended) the type of person you are so worried about.

To think that everyone that needs this is a fat, lazy bum that doesn't work is not just small minded, but extremely arrogant.

When did life, liberty, the persuit of happiness become a human right? When did self-determination become a human right? When did voting become a human right? When did privacy become a human right? When OTHER HUMANS SAID THEY WERE AND WROTE IT DOWN.

It was radical when we decided that liberty and privacy was a human right, and it is radical when we say now that health care is. In 100 years, our grandchildren will think it odd that anyone ever didnt' consider health care a human right.

:tu: Well said!

Is there anyone on this thread that has gone to the ER and been denied healthcare? I had some trouble getting a job, and had very little income, but there was still the health department, and even in my state of poverty, I still got what I needed to stay healthy. even without health insurance.

If these options exist, and they cost 15$ in copay if you have money (if you have no money on you, you can pay in installments)... Then where's the problem? I just don't see it?

Hospitals can not deny you under certain circumstances, but they can and will deny you certain treatments if you can not pay for them. Say you had something like cancer. You need treatments and you need to pay for them. If you can't, then your S**t outta luck. Say you have a genetic disorder and you need a series of diagnostics and lifetime treatment, again, you're SOL. There are certain things that health departments and ER visits can not do.

Edited by theGhost_and_theDarkness

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Belial

The world got blowed by big bankers and government rollers, now we all have to pay for it while they get bigger rewards? The healthcare system works IF governments KEEP OUT or work with healthcare bosses to run it correctly.

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DieChecker

How about this idea, government address the issue why Health Care cost keeps going up?

Instead of taking over an industry and centralization.

Tell us when did health care ever become a human right? So you are telling me someone who smoke a pack a day, eats all the fatty food and lays down all day, he is born with the right to be taken care of others for his behavior's consequence?

When did life, liberty, the persuit of happiness become a human right? When did self-determination become a human right? When did voting become a human right? When did privacy become a human right? When OTHER HUMANS SAID THEY WERE AND WROTE IT DOWN.

It was radical when we decided that liberty and privacy was a human right, and it is radical when we say now that health care is. In 100 years, our grandchildren will think it odd that anyone ever didnt' consider health care a human right.

I'm with Aroces on this. Healthcare is something that can be fundimentally abused by a noticable percentage of the population, which will negatively affect the rest of the population. None of the examples you gave negatively affected the rest of the population (financially anyway). (They did affect the population socially)

When did life, liberty, happyness, self determination, voting and privacy toss a barrel load of financial strain on the Many to provide for the Few? What you are suggesting is no different then the socialist Public Assistance programs in other nations that allow those who do not want to work to get paid not to work. Is the right not to work a human Right?

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Poopie

What is this "health department" you are talking about?

I'm under the understanding that it's a state run facility that provides healthcare for low income individuals or families? That's my best guess... I would hope that there was something similar throughout the country...

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AROCES

When did life, liberty, the persuit of happiness become a human right? When did self-determination become a human right? When did voting become a human right? When did privacy become a human right? When OTHER HUMANS SAID THEY WERE AND WROTE IT DOWN.

It was radical when we decided that liberty and privacy was a human right, and it is radical when we say now that health care is. In 100 years, our grandchildren will think it odd that anyone ever didnt' consider health care a human right.

You dont' say this is human rights and then have somebody else pay the bill.

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Poopie

Hospitals can not deny you under certain circumstances, but they can and will deny you certain treatments if you can not pay for them. Say you had something like cancer. You need treatments and you need to pay for them. If you can't, then your S**t outta luck. Say you have a genetic disorder and you need a series of diagnostics and lifetime treatment, again, you're SOL. There are certain things that health departments and ER visits can not do.

Awesome... Thanks... Educated...

So if you have cancer under Universal Healthcare, the government deems whether or not your situation is worth the cost...

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zenfahr

So where would that leave public education? We all front the bill for that as well.

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MissMelsWell

I have a quick question. Just for the record...

Is there anyone on this thread that has gone to the ER and been denied healthcare? I had some trouble getting a job, and had very little income, but there was still the health department, and even in my state of poverty, I still got what I needed to stay healthy. even without health insurance.

If these options exist, and they cost 15$ in copay if you have money (if you have no money on you, you can pay in installments)... Then where's the problem? I just don't see it?

Let me give you can example. One of my best friend was temporarily out of work. He had no health care because he didn't have a job, and he couldn't afford cobra and continue to eat and keep a roof over his head too. His appendix ruptured during this time, and went septic, which caused him to be layed up in the hospital, 3 surgeries, and massive follow up visits... all with no insurance... he now owes over 250K in medical and hospital bills. He's in the process of losing his home, and going through bankrupsy. Because of his situtation, no money, no job (he can't go to work at this point because the creditors will just consume ALL his pay check through garnishment) he works under hte table when he can (therefore not paying any taxes at all) ... and how could that be good for the economy? Working under the table and claiming bankrupsy. His is NOT a unique story... I have another friend who exhaused her INSURANCE benefit for cancer treatment... now she's sick again and will have to pay nearly 500K out of her pocket for more chemo and treatment for her cancer. She's going to divorce her husband so HE can keep their assets and she can go on public assistance. That's good for this country? Na-uh, I don't think so.

In other words, it's more complex than skipping down to your local health department, which is great if you have the sniffles or stubbed your toe, but not so great if you have a catastrophic illness/accident or chronic health issue.

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AROCES

I've seen some cruddy people, but I have yet to encounter one that you described.

What about the person with a genetic disease? Or a person who got sick from say, asbestos, or other environmental factors beyond their control? These people far outweigh (no pun intended) the type of person you are so worried about.

To think that everyone that needs this is a fat, lazy bum that doesn't work is not just small minded, but extremely arrogant.

Oh I know a lot of people that are diabetic and prefer to keep taking medications instead of cutting down on food and being more active.

And one can have as many children as they want since education and health care is free, right?

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zenfahr

Awesome... Thanks... Educated...

So if you have cancer under Universal Healthcare, the government deems whether or not your situation is worth the cost...

No the idea is that they do not want to deny these people. That already happens. Then these same folks, end up spending their entire life savings and then some, only to end up dead anyway. Then this debt is placed upon the shoulders of their living relatives... I've seen it happen many times. Its not right that hospitals, drug companines, and doctors force people into bankrupcy.

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Poopie

Let me give you can example. One of my best friend was temporarily out of work. He had no health care because he didn't have a job, and he couldn't afford cobra and continue to eat and keep a roof over his head too. His appendix ruptured during this time, and went septic, which caused him to be layed up in the hospital, 3 surgeries, and massive follow up visits... all with no insurance... he now owes over 250K in medical and hospital bills. He's in the process of losing his home, and going through bankrupsy. Because of his situtation, no money, no job (he can't go to work at this point because the creditors will just consume ALL his pay check through garnishment) he works under hte table when he can (therefore not paying any taxes at all) ... and how could that be good for the economy? Working under the table and claiming bankrupsy. His is NOT a unique story... I have another friend who exhaused her INSURANCE benefit for cancer treatment... now she's sick again and will have to pay nearly 500K out of her pocket for more chemo and treatment for her cancer. She's going to divorce her husband so HE can keep their assets and she can go on public assistance. That's good for this country? Na-uh, I don't think so.

In other words, it's more complex than skipping down to your local health department, which is great if you have the sniffles or stubbed your toe, but not so great if you have a catastrophic illness/accident or chronic health issue.

Thanks for the explanation.

So under this new Universal Healthcare Proposal, that doesn't have a public option, we all have to endure the same treatment as these unfortunate individuals? I'm not saying that these individuals don't or shouldn't be provided what they need in way of healthcare, but why make it mandatory for those that can afford insurance... Doesn't seem the least bit fair...

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zenfahr

Oh I know a lot of people that are diabetic and prefer to keep taking medications instead of cutting down on food and being more active.

And one can have as many children as they want since education and health care is free, right?

Dude people have as many children as they want because they can claim them on their taxes... thats a whole different subject. Education trys very hard, to get the new generation to think differently, to plan to be parents, to stop and think before jumping into the bed. Free health care will only see that these new children, (planned and mistakes) these new citizens, can come into this world right and be healthy... Education tries to instill logic and morals. Oh and Education does not stop with the children, there are many programs that teach adults how to prepare and care for a child.

Oh and this healthcare idea is not free anyway. Everyone will have to do their part.

Edited by zenfahr

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zenfahr

Thanks for the explanation.

So under this new Universal Healthcare Proposal, that doesn't have a public option, we all have to endure the same treatment as these unfortunate individuals? I'm not saying that these individuals don't or shouldn't be provided what they need in way of healthcare, but why make it mandatory for those that can afford insurance... Doesn't seem the least bit fair...

Thats the whole idea of insurace. The idea is to get it cheaper for everyone to have it. And to lower the costs so all can afford it.

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theGhost_and_theDarkness

Oh I know a lot of people that are diabetic and prefer to keep taking medications instead of cutting down on food and being more active.

And one can have as many children as they want since education and health care is free, right?

Maybe in your world. The republicans were the one against the abortion thing, so I think that's more supportive of the more babies thing than anything else, right?

I'm all for women being limited to 2 kids. I hate people in general. Which, is ironic, because you would think I would want people to get sick and die. . .but I don't. I would rather people be sensible and not procreate. Especially if your IQ is lacking.

Diabetes is a disease that could be helped by eating less, tis true. But get in there with the psychology behind the eating and everything's a mess. They need help, psychological and otherwise. As much as I despise people, I still have this weird desire to help those less fortunate, especially if they have a disease (mental or otherwise). If I can thaw my heart out a little, I think you can, too.

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Poopie

This reminds me of Johnson's great society... Where we introduced low income housing and welfare to African Americans, which had a severe negative effect on a specific race integrating into the middle class. Short term mindset, long term misery.

If we can't agree on wether or not this is the right route for our country. Can't we agree that the plan in place seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction? and that we should spend a little more time on a better plan? Hopefully one with a public option?

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MissMelsWell

Thanks for the explanation.

So under this new Universal Healthcare Proposal, that doesn't have a public option, we all have to endure the same treatment as these unfortunate individuals? I'm not saying that these individuals don't or shouldn't be provided what they need in way of healthcare, but why make it mandatory for those that can afford insurance... Doesn't seem the least bit fair...

And, perhaps that at one time I would have thought that too... except... you could find yourself out of work at any moment. I went 7 months this year without a job, and I've had a steady job for the last 25 years. I was NOT covered during that time and make no mistake, I could NOT afford private individual insurance. I'm perfectly healthy, it was $658 per MONTH, and covered next to NOTHING. Now, because I needed to get myself back to work, I took the first thing that came up... guess what? I STILL don't have insurance and STILL can't afford $658 a month that's little better than 70% coverage AFTER the $5000 deductable (and that's considered GOOD individual coverage). I'm a professional person, in a technical and professional field and the last thing I am is a slacker. But, if you work on contract like I do, you don't get health insurance. I'd love to not work on contract and get health insurance like others do, but the jobs aren't there. I'm lucky to have a job at all right now.

My 22 year old daughter works on contract too, it's the norm out here. She also has no health insurance... nor does her 22yo boyfriend...

It's like the unemployment benefit system... you pay in in case you DO need it at some point. And just about everyone does eventually.

I know plenty of people who never have kids and they pay into education. I vehemently oppose military actions of all kinds, yet how much of my dollars goes to our war machine? and I could go on and on and on.

And, we're the ONLY western nation that doesn't have a national health care plan... I highly doubt having one will be our demise.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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Poopie

And, perhaps that at one time I would have thought that too... except... you could find yourself out of work at any moment. I went 7 months this year without a job, and I've had a steady job for the last 25 years. I was NOT covered during that time and make no mistake, I could NOT afford private individual insurance. I'm perfectly healthy, it was $658 per MONTH, and covered next to NOTHING. Now, because I needed to get myself back to work, I took the first thing that came up... guess what? I STILL don't have insurance and STILL can't afford $658 a month that's little better than 70% coverage AFTER the $5000 deductable (and that's considered GOOD individual coverage). I'm a professional person, in a technical and professional field and the last thing I am is a slacker. But, if you work on contract like I do, you don't get health insurance. I'd love to not work on contract and get health insurance like others do, but the jobs aren't there. I'm lucky to have a job at all right now.

It's like the unemployment benefit system... you pay in in case you DO need it at some point. And just about everyone does eventually.

I feel you there. It's safe to say that the system needs reform... I just don't like the idea of Government take-over. I've experience government healthcare, and you're treated like cattle...

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Poopie

I vehemently oppose military actions of all kinds, yet how much of my dollars goes to our war machine? and I could go on and on and on.

I can't disagree more. War stimulates economy. I could go on and on... Unfortunately it's a necessary evil.

Just so we're clear you oppose government action in forms of war, but you're all for that same government running your healthcare system??? :hmm:

Edited by Poopie

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MissMelsWell

I can't disagree more. War stimulates economy. I could go on and on... Unfortunately it's a necessary evil.

Just so we're clear you oppose government action in forms of war, but you're all for that same government running your healthcare system??? hmm.gif

And the this war is stimulating our economy how? I was out of work for SEVEN months this year! The first time EVER. It's costing me more to live now than it has at any other time in my lifetime and I don't see it getting better! It's getting worse.

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Poopie

And the this war is stimulating our economy how? I was out of work for SEVEN months this year! The first time EVER. It's costing me more to live now than it has at any other time in my lifetime and I don't see it getting better! It's getting worse.

So you're blaming your unemployment on the war, or the economy? President Obama spent more money in his first 60 days in office than the Bush admin spent in both OIF and OEF...

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Poopie

I'm all for keynesian economics, but this pork barrel spending is just an atrocity... I'm waiting for that stimulation.... still... :sleepy:

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theGhost_and_theDarkness

So you're blaming your unemployment on the war, or the economy? President Obama spent more money in his first 60 days in office than the Bush admin spent in both OIF and OEF...

Yeah, but a lot of that was spent to fix what was broken during the Bush years and beyond. The wars bled us dry and crippled our economy. In order to keep it from crippling even more, we had to spend even more money.

We had to give the bailouts, for instance. Nobody likes it, but if the banks and auto industry would have crumbled we would be in even deeper poo than we already are. Can you even imagine what America would be like if our financial institutions would have collapsed? It'd be chaos.

The stimulus package may not be in totally full swing right now, but, regardless of what those who haven't even read the bill say, it provided many incentives for using domestically produced goods and hiring domestic employees instead of shipping goods and employees from overseas. If that hadn't happen, there would have been more job losses than there are. It was an expensive patch, but if it wouldn't have happened, again, we would be in deeper poo.

Edited by theGhost_and_theDarkness

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WoIverine

Why disapprove of a us health care system? Simple, why give more power to the entity that demands an exorbitant portion of our incomes every couple of weeks? An entity drowning in corruption, they rob us, invalidate our hard work, so we reward them? We give them any and all opportunities to run our lives, while we buy into their lies saying that we are mentally incapable of making our own informed decisions?

Be sheeple if you want, I tend to think we're all better than that!

Edited by SpiderCyde

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theGhost_and_theDarkness

Why disapprove of a us health care system? Simple, why give more power to the entity that demands an exorbitant portion of our incomes every couple of weeks? They rob us, invalidate our hard work, so we reward them? We give them any and all opportunities to run our lives, while we buy into their lies saying that we are mentally incapable of making our own decisions?

Be sheeple if you want, I tend to think we're all better than that!

I don't understand how having a public option equals not being able to make our own decisions. That just gives us something else to decide upon. You aren't making your decisions with the health insurance companies right now. They are. They decide what you get and what you don't, how much you pay, etc. . .and they do it to make profits. Their decisions aren't made to benefit you, they're made to benefit them. . .so please enlighten me on how you are freely making decisions with them.

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