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EllJay

U.S. Army shoots and kill a Reuter photograph

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Poopie

I watched the whole thing. The crew never knew that they were shooting at men that were (possibly) just journalists. I have no problem with the malicious killing of terrorists.

At worst, this is a case of mistaken identity.

There's no argument bro. Your wrong everyone else is right... Perception is reality...

All I can say is that my tax dollars didn't miss, and those patriots did their job well. If there are existing ROE's that state "shoot everything deemed or suspected as a threat", then by all means these boys did their job and did it well. You staunch liberals get all worked up, because there is a story attached to the video... that they were cameramen and war-time journalist... Those guys in the bird had no clue, and went on gut instinct. So, GOOD FOR THEM. For all we know they could have taken fire 5 minutes previous to this, and were already on edge... You watch it in HD, and sit in the quite comfort room of your computer... These birds were in the air, most likely taking on many forms of small arms fire, and maneuvering about in hostile territory.

If it's a mistake the may they rest in peace. If not, let them burn in hell.

War isn't pretty. If you can't handle it, don't watch.

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keithisco

There's no argument bro. Your wrong everyone else is right... Perception is reality...

All I can say is that my tax dollars didn't miss, and those patriots did their job well. If there are existing ROE's that state "shoot everything deemed or suspected as a threat", then by all means these boys did their job and did it well. You staunch liberals get all worked up, because there is a story attached to the video... that they were cameramen and war-time journalist... Those guys in the bird had no clue, and went on gut instinct. So, GOOD FOR THEM. For all we know they could have taken fire 5 minutes previous to this, and were already on edge... You watch it in HD, and sit in the quite comfort room of your computer... These birds were in the air, most likely taking on many forms of small arms fire, and maneuvering about in hostile territory.

If it's a mistake the may they rest in peace. If not, let them burn in hell.

War isn't pretty. If you can't handle it, don't watch.

Something about "this war is not in my name". These sicko "Patriots"laugh.gif just got their kicks from slaughter. Too many Rambo movies, too many Vid Games, too much "we are USA, do what we say"..

Why is the USA losing so many friends around the world? - because you hold the moral LOW ground.

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Poopie

Something about "this war is not in my name". These sicko "Patriots"laugh.gif just got their kicks from slaughter. Too many Rambo movies, too many Vid Games, too much "we are USA, do what we say"..

Why is the USA losing so many friends around the world? - because you hold the moral LOW ground.

You seem to think it's so easy for us to take a life and not be haunted by it... The only motivation they had in taking those lives is that by doing so they saved the lives of the Americans moving just a few hundred meters away...

chew on that for a bit before you assume what a soldier feels...

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President-Elect Acidhead

There's no argument bro. Your wrong everyone else is right... Perception is reality...

All I can say is that my tax dollars didn't miss, and those patriots did their job well. If there are existing ROE's that state "shoot everything deemed or suspected as a threat", then by all means these boys did their job and did it well. You staunch liberals get all worked up, because there is a story attached to the video... that they were cameramen and war-time journalist... Those guys in the bird had no clue, and went on gut instinct. So, GOOD FOR THEM. For all we know they could have taken fire 5 minutes previous to this, and were already on edge... You watch it in HD, and sit in the quite comfort room of your computer... These birds were in the air, most likely taking on many forms of small arms fire, and maneuvering about in hostile territory.

If it's a mistake the may they rest in peace. If not, let them burn in hell.

War isn't pretty. If you can't handle it, don't watch.

Ignorance is Strength

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Poopie

Ignorance is Strength

In your case.. Yes.... Assuming that this apache crew is a bunch of murdering blood thirsty morons is ignorance... People fail to reflect on that little thing called reality... Or, in this case, the reality of the situation... There are two sides to every story. based on this thread, you all are negating one side, and full bore on the other...

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Pax Unum

Unfortunate, but if reporters embed themselves with terrorists they may get killed, it’s war... IMO

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supervike

I clicked on this thread, and fully expected to be disgusted with the American Military...

I watched the whole video. Please do the same.

First off, War is ugly. Very horrific. It's not guys shooting each other and taking turns ducking.

This area was the scene of an earlier battle, the patrol spotted what they thought were an armed militia. They opened fire. Yes, they made inappropriate comments, but soldiers often have gallows humor. It's not an excuse, it's just what happens.

A van pulls up, the gunner seems worried that they'll take away the bodies and guns before the foot patrol can reach the site...They make the decision to open fire.

You can see the urgency the soldiers have when they realize there are kids there. They want to help those kids.

War is brutal, and ugly. These soldiers did it by the book, and were as professional as could be expected.

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President-Elect Acidhead

Unfortunate, but if reporters embed themselves with terrorists they may get killed, it’s war... IMO

Its an invasion.

And its obvious by comments like these that people think that if a person is holding a gun or a camera he's automatically a terrorist or insurgent.

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Poopie

Its an invasion.And its obvious by comments like these that people think that if a person is holding a gun or a camera he's automatically a terrorist or insurgent.

Exactly, It was an invasion. Anyone, especially people in large groups, that were holding a weapons (or something that could be misinterpreted as a weapon) that weren't coalition forces were to be considered enemy combatants... During an invasion ROE's change according to the threat on the ground. If they tell you shoot ducks... If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's more than likely a duck... shoot it.

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Voyager10

I think those guys should do ten years at Leavenworth and eleven years at Twelveworth.

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Poopie

I think those guys should do ten years at Leavenworth and eleven years at Twelveworth.

Why?

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EllJay

There's no argument bro. Your wrong everyone else is right... Perception is reality...

All I can say is that my tax dollars didn't miss, and those patriots did their job well. If there are existing ROE's that state "shoot everything deemed or suspected as a threat", then by all means these boys did their job and did it well.

If the ROE is degraded to some savagely free-for-all on a whim from triggerhappy cowboys, begging to shoot unarmed civilians, no wonder people stand in line to strap on a bomb-belt.

And NO.. they did a p***poor job in threat assessment, and acted accordingly with a kneejerk response.

As mentioned earlier: He raises the camera to take a photo-shot. A soldier already states there that he shot at them, even though thats obviously is not the case, which even more incite the soldiers.

When the helicopter comes around they just stands there, a group of 8 people just talking, when the helicopter is in clear view.

Hardly something you do if your intention is to shoot it down. Then they calmly starts to walk away, down the street when hell breaks loose on them and they are ripped to shreds.

So again..they sucked at their job, and some dozen people got shredded.

You staunch liberals get all worked up, because there is a story attached to the video... that they were cameramen and war-time journalist...

So you would say that the Republican, or conservative view on this matter, is in line with "kill ´em all indiscriminately, and **** it if they are civilians"??

Those guys in the bird had no clue

You got that right.

For all we know they could have taken fire 5 minutes previous to this, and were already on edge... You watch it in HD, and sit in the quite comfort room of your computer... These birds were in the air, most likely taking on many forms of small arms fire, and maneuvering about in hostile territory.

For all we know they could have been up there for target practising.

For all we know they could have been totally clueless and felt it was a nice day for some killing.

Assuming they where taking fire upon?

Listening to their chitchat and casual talking back and forth, even laughing about killing these men does not enforce the interpretation that this was some riled up situation where some split second decision had to be made.

No, they took their time circled around, lots of time to assess the situation, radioed back and forth, made inaccurate claims about being fired upon, clearly viewed the men in free sight making no aggressive movement against them

.....and then just mowed them down.

If it's a mistake the may they rest in peace. If not, let them burn in hell.

It was a mistake, and someones going to pay.

War isn't pretty. If you can't handle it, don't watch.

That is exactly what people should do, so they don't make halfassed and ignorant decisions whether to go to war, or support a war.

As the USA have taking the moral highground, as liberators, regarding these two wars and have been proven to act in the same manner of atrocity they accuse their enemies of, yes...people should watch these wars and continue to do.

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dsm_luck

Ok I spent a few hours on an other forum explaining this video to civilians. Im going to make this as brief as possible.

If you have never been on the ground as a combatant in an urban warfare situation your assesment of the situation means nothing. This is the reality of combat in dense urban areas fighting a non uniformed enemy that hides in the general population. If this one video disturbs you than you better just close your eyes and cover your ears now. This type of grey area split second decisions happen everyday. You cannot avoid civilian casualities. Often the civilians are actively working with the enemy. Sometimes it is forced other times it is by choice. I patrolled that area in 2007 and it was bad. Here is my take on the situation as someone wh has been there.

1. A mistake was made on the ID of the targets. However they believed those men were armed, and the ROE is clear on what to do next.

2. The reporters were in an area where US forces were engaged with the enemy. They knew the risks. When a gun battles starts the civilians flee. They appeared to be a classic RPG/Small arms ambush.

3. The truck incident is the only debateable action. Problem is that we have no context outside of the small video clip. At that time in that area there was intel that the insurgents were using trucks as transports, and gun platforms. When I first arrived in Iraq some of my friends were shot in a driveby by such a truck.

I do however think that this video is important though. You civilians need to watch it and understand the situations that this type of combat produce. It should disgust you and make you question why we go to war. War is not sanitary, it is a mother****er that consumes all humanity. If your nation goes to war it better damn well have an absolute reason to do so because incidents like this are common place on the battlefield. Welcome to the hell of urban combat. Soldiers, American or other, will always fight to survive and get their buddies home. You are asking them to second guess what they have been trained to do. We are killers, not diplomats and to expect us to be anything but is absolutely ignorant. We attempt to minimize civilian casualities but it is impossible to keep it from happening.

You don't like war? Neither do I. Its an abomination, but pretending that the fault lies with the soldier is simplistic. War by nature is violence. You fight the root cause (war)not the pawns trying to survive the deadly game of chess.

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dsm_luck

If the ROE is degraded to some savagely free-for-all on a whim from triggerhappy cowboys, begging to shoot unarmed civilians, no wonder people stand in line to strap on a bomb-belt.

And NO.. they did a p***poor job in threat assessment, and acted accordingly with a kneejerk response.

As mentioned earlier: He raises the camera to take a photo-shot. A soldier already states there that he shot at them, even though thats obviously is not the case, which even more incite the soldiers.

When the helicopter comes around they just stands there, a group of 8 people just talking, when the helicopter is in clear view.

Hardly something you do if your intention is to shoot it down. Then they calmly starts to walk away, down the street when hell breaks loose on them and they are ripped to shreds.

So again..they sucked at their job, and some dozen people got shredded.

So you would say that the Republican, or conservative view on this matter, is in line with "kill ´em all indiscriminately, and **** it if they are civilians"??

You got that right.

For all we know they could have been up there for target practising.

For all we know they could have been totally clueless and felt it was a nice day for some killing.

Assuming they where taking fire upon?

Listening to their chitchat and casual talking back and forth, even laughing about killing these men does not enforce the interpretation that this was some riled up situation where some split second decision had to be made.

No, they took their time circled around, lots of time to assess the situation, radioed back and forth, made inaccurate claims about being fired upon, clearly viewed the men in free sight making no aggressive movement against them

.....and then just mowed them down.

It was a mistake, and someones going to pay.

That is exactly what people should do, so they don't make halfassed and ignorant decisions whether to go to war, or support a war.

As the USA have taking the moral highground, as liberators, regarding these two wars and have been proven to act in the same manner of atrocity they accuse their enemies of, yes...people should watch these wars and continue to do.

I usually like to stay away from ad homenem attacks, but you are absolutely ignorant. I love how people who don't even have the slightest grasp about warfare chime in as experts. Just about everything you stated is completely separate from the reality of it, in fact your "logic" is soo flawed that I honestly do not think that we could have a productive arguement. No soldier that I ever met fought for the convoluted ideal of liberation. We fought for each other and to be able to go home. Your simply just another extremist. All soldiers are evil, and love to kill right? Do you not realize that some of the strongest anti war words have come from those who have fought in battle and try to warn the rest of you ignorant sheep about the reality of it? The problem is not the soldiers the problem is apathetic citizens who allow these conflicts to happen again and again.

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KingTomis

US-murder_iraqi_AK47.JPG

US-murder_iraqi_RPG.JPG

US-murder_iraqi_RPG4.JPG

US-murder_iraqi_RPG5.JPG

It's really quite sickening that the majority of you cannot see reality in this event.

You have an american patrol coming up on the area, being fired upon, you have a group of men gathering behind a corner surrounding at the very least one with an AK-47, from what I saw it looked like two. Then you see what appears to be a man with an RPG at the corner waiting for the upcoming american vehicle. It's not a gray area, their job was to follow the ROE, they followed it.

It's not even a case of mistaken identity because the reporters embedded themselves with AIF forces. They knew the risks of hanging around with insurgents so why the supprise that they were taken out with the insurgents they were standing beside? It's not like they were standing off to the side taking pictures, they were right up beside them, they knew, and accepted those risks.

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EllJay

I usually like to stay away from ad homenem attacks, but you are absolutely ignorant. I love how people who don't even have the slightest grasp about warfare chime in as experts. Just about everything you stated is completely separate from the reality of it, in fact your "logic" is soo flawed that I honestly do not think that we could have a productive arguement. No soldier that I ever met fought for the convoluted ideal of liberation. We fought for each other and to be able to go home. Your simply just another extremist. All soldiers are evil, and love to kill right? Do you not realize that some of the strongest anti war words have come from those who have fought in battle and try to warn the rest of you ignorant sheep about the reality of it? The problem is not the soldiers the problem is apathetic citizens who allow these conflicts to happen again and again.

I never claimed to be an expert, what I did was observe and responded to what was clearly shown on a 17 minutes long video of the whole situation. So explain what is so separated from the reality of what happened there please.

If you don't want a productive argument, fine by me.

I did not say that the individual soldiers fought with the word liberation in their mind, I believe they fought just to get ahead from day to day. USA as a country on the other hand went to war on the premises of liberation, as I said.

I never said no such thing that all soldiers are evil and I believe very well that many of the soldiers who ever took part of a war comes out as a fierce protester of wars. Some on the other hand comes out as rabid dogs, looking for another fight, wherever it might be.

By reacting to this video shown, is a clear sign that people are not apathetic citizen and by that try to prevent that such thing ever happen again.

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Ufo Believer

From - The Raw Story

During a Monday appearance on MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan Show, a retired intelligence officer claimed that U.S. forces violated the military's Rules of Engagement in events depicted by a video released by whistleblower site WikiLeaks, which allegedly shows the murder of civilians and journalists in New Baghdad, Iraq.

The Pentagon maintains that no crime was committed and no investigation will be carried out.

In the video, U.S. military personnel apparently mistook the cameras slung over the backs of two Reuters journalists for weapons when they opened fire on them and a group of people on July 12, 2007.

The video purportedly shows the deaths of Reuters journalists Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22 and Saeed Chmagh, 40, along with six other people on a street corner. It also shows US forces firing on a minivan in which two injured children were found.

"The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured," Wikileaks states.

More here - http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0405/ret-intel-officer-us-shooting-violated-rules/

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EllJay

You have an american patrol coming up on the area, being fired upon, you have a group of men gathering behind a corner surrounding at the very least one with an AK-47, from what I saw it looked like two. Then you see what appears to be a man with an RPG at the corner waiting for the upcoming american vehicle. It's not a gray area, their job was to follow the ROE, they followed it.

It's not even a case of mistaken identity because the reporters embedded themselves with AIF forces. They knew the risks of hanging around with insurgents so why the supprise that they were taken out with the insurgents they were standing beside? It's not like they were standing off to the side taking pictures, they were right up beside them, they knew, and accepted those risks.

Do these guys act, move around, dodge for cover like they where going to attack the helicopter?

Before when they walked along the street, or after when they just stood there at the corner?

They saw the helicopter in clear view and casually started to walk in different directions.

The reporter took a grave risk being there, most reporters do who work in war-zones and the photo-shot he did by the corner was open for interpretation. However, when the helicopter circled around and saw them standing there, doing nothing to raise weapons, or doing a "second attempt", and then casually walks against the helicopter (and some even in other directions) it should have given them some sort of clue to the threat-level.

But this is just a part of it all. On top of this we have the van-incident where no threat at all was shown and to top this off we have their appalling chitchat on the radio.

As I said earlier:

If they paid attention they would have seen that the person with the RPG was not at the corner, he couldn't possibly have gotten there, since he was going out of view in the midsection of the block while the camera spots the person at the corner 2-3 sec later. The thing (his camera) that he is holding with a Telephoto lens, clearly showing just before the flight-camera goes over the roof and he is out of view.

He raises the camera to take a photo-shot. A soldier already states there that he shot at them, even though thats obviously is not the case, which even more incite the soldiers.

When the helicopter comes around they just stands there, a group of 8 people just talking, when the helicopter is in clear view.

Hardly something you do if your intention is to shoot it down. Then they calmly starts to walk away, down the street when hell breaks loose on them and they are ripped to shreds.

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dsm_luck

I never claimed to be an expert, what I did was observe and responded to what was clearly shown on a 17 minutes long video of the whole situation. So explain what is so separated from the reality of what happened there please.

If you don't want a productive argument, fine by me.

I did not say that the individual soldiers fought with the word liberation in their mind, I believe they fought just to get ahead from day to day. USA as a country on the other hand went to war on the premises of liberation, as I said.

I never said no such thing that all soldiers are evil and I believe very well that many of the soldiers who ever took part of a war comes out as a fierce protester of wars. Some on the other hand comes out as rabid dogs, looking for another fight, wherever it might be.

By reacting to this video shown, is a clear sign that people are not apathetic citizen and by that try to prevent that such thing ever happen again.

No by your reaction you are attempting to place blame for the bloodshed on the soldiers instead of the action of fighting a war itself. What was shown in that video was the chaos of the grey area decisions that are made everyday. You can back peddle all you want but I will not let you escape the fact that your are utterly clueless about non traditional warfare and the problems that come with it. By your convoluted logic we should look at people in poverty the same way. Some of them might steal so it justifiable that you should assume they all will do it. Your words already condem the men in the chopper even though you have no context or even basic understanding of what is happening. That is the definition of ignorance.

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danydandan

Don't they always ?

Anyway it a war what to expect. When anyone from there could have a bomn strapped to them , you'd want to look out for yourself too .

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The Unseen

I would have fired hellfire rockets at them,One rocket would have done the job.Those people bring women and children with them when they fight Americans So IT is not OUR BOYS FAULT when we engage an they get hit cause when those women and children get older they fight or send their children straped with bombs to blow us up.Sad but true.I dont blame our boys one bit. WAR IS HELL.

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dsm_luck

Do these guys act, move around, dodge for cover like they where going to attack the helicopter?

Before when they walked along the street, or after when they just stood there at the corner?

They saw the helicopter in clear view and casually started to walk in different directions.

The reporter took a grave risk being there, most reporters do who work in war-zones and the photo-shot he did by the corner was open for interpretation. However, when the helicopter circled around and saw them standing there, doing nothing to raise weapons, or doing a "second attempt", and then casually walks against the helicopter (and some even in other directions) it should have given them some sort of clue to the threat-level.

But this is just a part of it all. On top of this we have the van-incident where no threat at all was shown and to top this off we have their appalling chitchat on the radio.

As I said earlier:

If they paid attention they would have seen that the person with the RPG was not at the corner, he couldn't possibly have gotten there, since he was going out of view in the midsection of the block while the camera spots the person at the corner 2-3 sec later. The thing (his camera) that he is holding with a Telephoto lens, clearly showing just before the flight-camera goes over the roof and he is out of view.

He raises the camera to take a photo-shot. A soldier already states there that he shot at them, even though thats obviously is not the case, which even more incite the soldiers.

When the helicopter comes around they just stands there, a group of 8 people just talking, when the helicopter is in clear view.

Hardly something you do if your intention is to shoot it down. Then they calmly starts to walk away, down the street when hell breaks loose on them and they are ripped to shreds.

Just stop talking.

The helicopter assumed that the men on the ground were setting up an ambush for the Infantry unit engaged in combat in the area. The chopper in question was likely further than a click out and only seemed on top of them because of the good optics. It had nothing to do with a threat to the helicopter. US Army units were engaged and the helicopter was providing close air support. Did you even watch the video or were you too ****ing busy passing uneducated judgement to see it through?

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dsm_luck

I would have fired hellfire rockets at them,One rocket would have done the job.Those people bring women and children with them when they fight Americans So IT is not OUR BOYS FAULT when we engage an they get hit cause when those women and children get older they fight or send their children straped with bombs to blow us up.Sad but true.I dont blame our boys one bit. WAR IS HELL.

Hellfires in Baghdad are usually a no no. We were only given the green light for those and F-18s once in the city and that was when it started going down Somalia style in the city center.

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Poopie

I love it when logic overcomes emotion. Thank you DSM_luck... It's like speaking portuguese to a deaf guy.

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EllJay

No by your reaction you are attempting to place blame for the bloodshed on the soldiers instead of the action of fighting a war itself. What was shown in that video was the chaos of the grey area decisions that are made everyday. You can back peddle all you want but I will not let you escape the fact that your are utterly clueless about non traditional warfare and the problems that come with it. By your convoluted logic we should look at people in poverty the same way. Some of them might steal so it justifiable that you should assume they all will do it. Your words already condem the men in the chopper even though you have no context or even basic understanding of what is happening. That is the definition of ignorance.

There is no back peddling going on here at all, just some clarification on statement you made of what I wrote.

Where does the grey area fade over to the black area, would you care to explain where that happens?

Is that grey area expanded on by your superior, or is it a free choice to act upon by the soldiers to fit their liking?

The corner incident rose suspicion and later acted upon without clear threat, then later on the van-incident who even showed less of a threat and lots of time to assess was act6ed out on.

I dont see what you mean by your poor-people analogy.

The context of what happened was clear to view for 17 min. That is the definition of observing.

Maybe you can reflect upon this testimony and come back to me about it, to see if that correlate with the context.

http://revcom.us/a/126/ivaw-testimony-en.html

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