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EllJay

U.S. Army shoots and kill a Reuter photograph

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The Unseen

You seem to think it's so easy for us to take a life and not be haunted by it... The only motivation they had in taking those lives is that by doing so they saved the lives of the Americans moving just a few hundred meters away...

chew on that for a bit before you assume what a soldier feels...

Ive been there,done that and yes if you havent been there you shouldnt have crap to say.It wasnt pretty when I was there and yes I KILLED MORE OF THEM B-STARDS before they killed me.On the battle field you have to react quick or you could be dead.Bravo Poopie for standing up for our soldiers,that fool from madrid can stay there for his butt knows nothing of WAR and his stinking comments should be shoved down his neck.but thats ok too for even the foolish have the right to their stupid opinion.Lets just hope if he ever has to go to war his butt will see what you were talking about and what I have been through.If I ever go back will I kill again you bet your American Heart I will,I dont like it but it is something I'm Darn good at.

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EllJay

Just stop talking.

The helicopter assumed that the men on the ground were setting up an ambush for the Infantry unit engaged in combat in the area. The chopper in question was likely further than a click out and only seemed on top of them because of the good optics. It had nothing to do with a threat to the helicopter. US Army units were engaged and the helicopter was providing close air support. Did you even watch the video or were you too ****ing busy passing uneducated judgement to see it through?

They assumed they where fired upon by an RPG, they acted upon that, which was clearly wrong.

He says just as they go by the corner "We have a guy shooting at us".

So YES they acted upon a misjudged threat against the helicopter.

Are you assuming how far away they where or not?

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dsm_luck

There is no back peddling going on here at all, just some clarification on statement you made of what I wrote.

Where does the grey area fade over to the black area, would you care to explain where that happens?

Is that grey area expanded on by your superior, or is it a free choice to act upon by the soldiers to fit their liking?

The corner incident rose suspicion and later acted upon without clear threat, then later on the van-incident who even showed less of a threat and lots of time to assess was act6ed out on.

I dont see what you mean by your poor-people analogy.

The context of what happened was clear to view for 17 min. That is the definition of observing.

Maybe you can reflect upon this testimony and come back to me about it, to see if that correlate with the context.

http://revcom.us/a/126/ivaw-testimony-en.html

Oh you certainly did back peddle. That is the problem with war in general and especially when fighting insurgents. The grey area is very broad and it is left up to the soldiers training and split second decision making skills to make the good call. Sometimes the right decision is made and other times it is not. It is a "black" area when you disregard your ROE and willfully kill innocents. We trained for 2 years before our deployment and everytime we had any sort of training, ROE and how to treat non combantants on the battlefield was drilled into us. We would attempt to keep civilian casualties low but often it is unavoidable. I don't care who you are when you are faced with the choice of killing to sustain you and your friends survival or guaranteed death if you refuse to fight the decision becomes a non issue. You honestly have no clue what happens in a counter insurgency war.

My point with the analogy was that you are biased against soldiers for what ever reason. Maybe its to be edgy, or different, or maybe you even have a moral reason for it, but in the end your views are extremely biased and uneducated. That really makes them irrelevant to this discussion.

Edited by dsm_luck

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The Unseen

Hellfires in Baghdad are usually a no no. We were only given the green light for those and F-18s once in the city and that was when it started going down Somalia style in the city center.

I know we couldnt use those,but it would have been nice to see them fly.Our boys did a good job anyway with what they had.It wasnt pretty when I was there and wish I could have done more.

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President-Elect Acidhead

Ive been there,done that and yes if you havent been there you shouldnt have crap to say.It wasnt pretty when I was there and yes I KILLED MORE OF THEM B-STARDS before they killed me.On the battle field you have to react quick or you could be dead.Bravo Poopie for standing up for our soldiers,that fool from madrid can stay there for his butt knows nothing of WAR and his stinking comments should be shoved down his neck.but thats ok too for even the foolish have the right to their stupid opinion.Lets just hope if he ever has to go to war his butt will see what you were talking about and what I have been through.If I ever go back will I kill again you bet your American Heart I will,I dont like it but it is something I'm Darn good at.

You are one proud killing machine.... self-imposed.

Edited by acidhead

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Poopie

There is no back peddling going on here at all, just some clarification on statement you made of what I wrote.

Where does the grey area fade over to the black area, would you care to explain where that happens?

Is that grey area expanded on by your superior, or is it a free choice to act upon by the soldiers to fit their liking?

The corner incident rose suspicion and later acted upon without clear threat, then later on the van-incident who even showed less of a threat and lots of time to assess was act6ed out on.

I dont see what you mean by your poor-people analogy.

The context of what happened was clear to view for 17 min. That is the definition of observing.

Maybe you can reflect upon this testimony and come back to me about it, to see if that correlate with the context.

http://revcom.us/a/126/ivaw-testimony-en.html

It's not a perfect system Elljay. War is chaos, and those that follow tactics techniques and procedures are more likely to survive that said chaos. The difference of black and white is something that goes on in your mind after the bullets have whizzed by your head, and you've safely made it back to your pillow... Everything else in war is grey...

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dsm_luck

They assumed they where fired upon by an RPG, they acted upon that, which was clearly wrong.

He says just as they go by the corner "We have a guy shooting at us".

So YES they acted upon a misjudged threat against the helicopter.

Are you assuming how far away they where or not?

Us as in Americans. You don't mistake an RPG being fired, get your head out of video games. You know absolutely nothing about the ROE in Bahgdad at the time. I was there, on the ground, rifle in hand, fighting street to street. What the **** are you going to tell me? They were within the ROE. If you dont like than we can discuss the finer points about how Rules of Engagement get to this ****ed up point.

My estimate about the distance is based on my first hand knowledge. I was a sniper. Optics were my life. We used Apaches all the time in support situations. In no time during my deplyment did i see a helicopter engage targets from anything closer than 500 meters. Actually I could give you an exact distance based off the bullet travel time. I might try to do the math later.

Edit-

Ok here is the math. The m230 Chaingun has a muzzle velocity of 805m per second. I counted at least two seconds between the initial fire and the rounds impacting the ground. That gives us roughly 1600m give or take. 1600 meters is a click and a half or nearly one mile. You are telling me that these men assumed that a helicopter a mile off is targeting them in the center of that dense urban environment?

Edited by dsm_luck

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Poopie

You are one proud killing machine.... self-imposed.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

--George Orwell--

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The Unseen

You are one proud killing machine.... self-imposed.

I am not a proud killing Machine you poser.I was just good at it .Toobad your but wasnt there your mouth would have gotten you killed.But yes Im a bad person to have been trained to do what I did.I live a life of fear that one day Ill be fighting against weak fools like you for fear that youll start crying on the battle field,Im not proud to ever kill my fellow human being but when it comes to defending my life you best believe my aim will be true.Talk all the caca you want you fool but your butt will never know what it is to be a soldier while your but sits at home watching TV drinking your beer while you get fat on the freedoms that Soldiers fight for.Yep your my HERO.Oh wait a minute your from canaduh.Makes me feel better knowing my spent WAR TIME was spent on Americans and not YOU,MY BAD.

Edited by The Unseen

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OverSword

I wonder how many other civilian killings have been covered-up as “combat operations against a hostile force”?

The Lancet medical journal published a peer-reviewed study in 2006 which estimated 654,965 excess Iraqi deaths.

Was it really worth it to keep us safe from those non-existent WMDs?

Perhaps, I hope, there will be more opposition to the next unnecessary war.

Do you really believe that is why the US and GB were there? OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL. We wanted a huge military presence in the region to secure oil supplies because TPTB new there was an economic colapse on the horizon (since they evidently engineered that too).

That being said I don't believe that these soldiers and pilots acted outside thier mandate, which does not mean I'm for war.

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The Unseen

Us as in Americans. You don't mistake an RPG being fired, get your head out of video games. You know absolutely nothing about the ROE in Bahgdad at the time. I was there, on the ground, rifle in hand, fighting street to street. What the **** are you going to tell me? They were within the ROE. If you dont like than we can discuss the finer points about how Rules of Engagement get to this ****ed up point.

My estimate about the distance is based on my first hand knowledge. I was a sniper. Optics were my life. We used Apaches all the time in support situations. In no time during my deplyment did i see a helicopter engage targets from anything closer than 500 meters. Actually I could give you an exact distance based off the bullet travel time. I might try to do the math later.

Tell that fool. :tu:

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Poopie

TV drinking your beer while you get fat on the freedoms that Soldiers fight for.Yep your my HERO.

Easy bro, most of clowns that are screaming murder aren't in the U.S....

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President-Elect Acidhead

I am not a proud killing Machine you poser.I was just good at it .Toobad your but wasnt there your mouth would have gotten you killed.But yes Im a bad person to have been trained to do what I did.I live a life of fear that one day Ill be fighting against weak fools like you for fear that youll start crying on the battle field,Im not proud to ever kill my fellow human being but when it comes to defending my life you best believe my aim will be true.Talk all the caca you want you fool but your butt will never know what it is to be a soldier while your but sits at home watching TV drinking your beer while you get fat on the freedoms that Soldiers fight for.Yep your my HERO.Oh wait a minute your from canaduh.Makes me feel better knowing my spent WAR TIME was spent on Americans and not YOU,MY BAD.

I'll bet anybody this self-imposed killing machine is a Call of Duty addict and he's lying about military service.

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Poopie

I'll bet anybody this self-imposed killing machine is a Call of Duty addict and he's lying about military service.

It's hardly on topic... I'm ex-military and love COD... bite me.

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dsm_luck

Do you really believe that is why the US and GB were there? OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL. We wanted a huge military presence in the region to secure oil supplies because TPTB new there was an economic colapse on the horizon (since they evidently engineered that too).

That being said I don't believe that these soldiers and pilots acted outside thier mandate, which does not mean I'm for war.

They followed their ROE. Lets just hope next time the American people are less apathetic to the horrors and effects of war.

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EllJay

Oh you certainly did back peddle. That is the problem with war in general and especially when fighting insurgents. The grey area is very broad and it is left up to the soldiers training and split second decision making skills to make the good call. Sometimes the right decision is made and other times it is not.

Instead of just saying that, point out where that back peddling to place.

So, in this case, where they had lots of time, and no split-second decision to make, (i.e meeting a person in a doorway or an alley and assess if he is a threat or not) they made a drawn-out bad call

It is a "black" area when you disregard your ROE and willfully kill innocents.

As they did when the blasted that van with the father and 2 kids, and 2 other civilians who ran to help the injured man on the sidewalk.

You don't mistake an RPG being fired, get your head out of video games.

Which they clearly did, and even said so on the video. Did you even see it?

My point with the analogy was that you are biased against soldiers for what ever reason. Maybe its to be edgy, or different, or maybe you even have a moral reason for it, but in the end your views are extremely biased and uneducated. That really makes them irrelevant to this discussion.

You seem to have a hard time understanding that I am addressing this incident, with those men, and not some general -all-soldiers-are-bad rampage here.

Get that out of the system.

But since you brought it up, have a look at this guys view on how the ROE worked for them and what happened.

http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony/rules-engagement-part-2/jason-lemieux/video

Edited by EllJay

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dsm_luck

I'll bet anybody this self-imposed killing machine is a Call of Duty addict and he's lying about military service.

Soldiers come from all corners of America and represent all ideaologies, religions, and classes. What would give you the idea that he is lying? All Infantry soldiers in fact are trained to be killing machines. Such is the fact of war. Why should it suprise you then that some soldiers talk like this? Would you prefere him to wallow in guilt and let the monster of war consume him? What does any of this have to do with you? If he did his job and didn't break the ROE or put his buddies in jeopardy what then is your issue?

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The Unseen

I'll bet anybody this self-imposed killing machine is a Call of Duty addict and he's lying about military service.

Why dont you just shut your mouth ,Your probally hide under your bed and cry like a baby,Whats your age 7?why arnt you in school and quit playing with your self ,youll go blind. and Call of Duty is a good game,You dont know me you fool and untill youve had bullets flying and hitting all around you in REAL LIFE,you dont know CACA,so go wipe ypur Canaduh butt cause your starting to stink.I served this REAL COUNTRY PROUDLY.and if I could do it again I would put in another 10 years you wimp.But You better get off the computer for your Mama finds you talking to real men,Go play with your little sister or something.

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The Silver Thong

I am not a proud killing Machine you poser.I was just good at it .Toobad your but wasnt there your mouth would have gotten you killed.But yes Im a bad person to have been trained to do what I did.I live a life of fear that one day Ill be fighting against weak fools like you for fear that youll start crying on the battle field,Im not proud to ever kill my fellow human being but when it comes to defending my life you best believe my aim will be true.Talk all the caca you want you fool but your butt will never know what it is to be a soldier while your but sits at home watching TV drinking your beer while you get fat on the freedoms that Soldiers fight for.Yep your my HERO.Oh wait a minute your from canaduh.Makes me feel better knowing my spent WAR TIME was spent on Americans and not YOU,MY BAD.

Your comin off here lookin like a right ass. I may respect you for your service in the military but rants like this leave a lot to be desired here on UM. You have a temper and I bet it gets the better of you at times doesn't it. When people see images of people being killed what do you expect them to say "that was a right good killing now could you please pass the crumpets" From the video it does not appear that the Iraqi's and reporters posed much of a threat.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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dsm_luck

Instead of just saying that, point out where that back peddling to place.

So, in this case, where they had lots of time, and no split-second decision to make, (i.e meeting a person in a doorway or an alley and assess if he is a threat or not) they made a drawn-out bad call

As they did when the blasted that van with the father and 2 kids, and 2 other civilians who ran to help the injured man on the sidewalk.

Which they clearly did, and even said so on the video. Did you even see it?

You seem to have a hard time understanding that I am addressing this incident, with those men, and not some general -all-soldiers-are-bad rampage here.

Get that out of the system.

But since you brought it up, have a look at this guys view on how the ROE worked for them and what happened.

http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony/rules-engagement-part-2/jason-lemieux/video

To you the decision may seem drawn out, but they knew they had little time before the men could have split up. Again American forces were engaged they had to make a decision. This is why I am irriated, your questions betray even a basic understanding of combat and pull your bias clearly into the spotlight. Do you honestly think you know more about combat in Baghdad and U.S. ROE than me? Don't be rediculous.

Often insurgents would be killed only to have another person or car pull up and grab the weapons. The Iraqis were specifically told to stay back until US troops had cleared the area after a gunfight. The truck is honestly regretable and the only point of contention in this video.

I don't give a **** what they said about the RPG. No combat soldier/pilot would mistake RPG fire. You cant miss it. They didnt even need to see the men shoot one to engage, they already had enough reason to open up once they saw what they thought were weapons.

No, lets not pretend that you dont have a negative bias twords soldiers. Its an insult to my intelligence and your as well.

Edited by dsm_luck

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Poopie

Your comin off here lookin like a right ass. I may respect you for your service in the military but rants like this leave a lot to be desired here on UM. You have a temper and I bet it gets the better of you at times doesn't it. When people see images of people being killed what do you expect them to say "that was a right good killing now could you please pass the crumpets" From the video it does not appear that the Iraqi's and reporters posed much of a threat.

He's a different kinda animal... I think he lacks tact, but many of you lack respect for American soldiers, and then completely write off the chaos of wartime conflict calling us murders or killers as if were lower life forms... reap what you sew, I'm not buying into your in-group out-group post... in other words. quit crying...

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The Unseen

Soldiers come from all corners of America and represent all ideaologies, religions, and classes. What would give you the idea that he is lying? All Infantry soldiers in fact are trained to be killing machines. Such is the fact of war. Why should it suprise you then that some soldiers talk like this? Would you prefere him to wallow in guilt and let the monster of war consume him? What does any of this have to do with you? If he did his job and didn't break the ROE or put his buddies in jeopardy what then is your issue?

Im not a bad person,really.I had to leave because of Illness that will soon take my life,I was going to be in the millitary for life,I found more than just a life there,some of my best friends are still there and some are buried here.I was going to follow the life my Grandpa had.A GOOD LIFE,A PROUD LIFE.but GOD chose something else for me.I fought out of fear for my brothers in arms,I put my life on the line more than a few times.Ive seen my friends get killed and there blood poured upon me,I still have nightmares of such combat,the faces the screams,the smell.I love America and will fight to the death when it is threatened,even now.I never broke ROE.

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dsm_luck

Your comin off here lookin like a right ass. I may respect you for your service in the military but rants like this leave a lot to be desired here on UM. You have a temper and I bet it gets the better of you at times doesn't it. When people see images of people being killed what do you expect them to say "that was a right good killing now could you please pass the crumpets" From the video it does not appear that the Iraqi's and reporters posed much of a threat.

Says you, a civilian with absolutely no concept of how nasty counter insurgent conflicts are. I'm definately not condoning his language or speech but seriously beyond your skewed observation do you really think you understand that video?

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The Silver Thong

He's a different kinda animal... I think he lacks tact, but many of you lack respect for American soldiers, and then completely write off the chaos of wartime conflict calling us murders or killers as if were lower life forms... reap what you sew, I'm not buying into your in-group out-group post... in other words. quit crying...

Are you forgetting Canada is at war as well and we have soldiers experiencing the same things your boys are. Get off the high horse and as far as calling your allie (not you) Canaduh we could have started saying the United States of Amurderer but yes you are right I guess we have more tact than our brothers to the south.

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Poopie

To you the decision may seem drawn out, but they knew they had little time before the men could have split up. Again American forces were engaged they had to make a decision. This is why I am irriated, your questions betray even a basic understanding of combat and pull your bias clearly into the spotlight. Do you honestly think you know more about combat in Baghdad and U.S. ROE than me? Don't be rediculous.

Often insurgents would be killed only to have another person or car pull up and grab the weapons. The Iraqis were specifically told to stay back until US troops had cleared the area after a gunfight. The truck is honestly regretable and the only point of contention in this video.

I don't give a **** what they said about the RPG. No combat soldier/pilot would mistake RPG fire. You cant miss it. They didnt even need to see the men shoot one to engage, they already had enough reason to open up once they saw what they thought were weapons.

No, lets not pretend that you dont have a negative bias twords soldiers. Its an insult to my intelligence and your as well.

I would consider you a subject matter expert, but I'm not surprised that people will argue with you... Especially people that sit in front of their computer and have nothing better to do.

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