Polish President killed in Plane Crash

[Helen of Annoy]

Im from Poland. It's a great tragedy for us, Poles. Not only because of the disaster died Polish dignitaries, but for this that Polish citizens were killed. Too many people was wrighting about, but they dont know where Polish is.

You have my deepest sympathy.

[sp840tril]

I noticed that it was a Tupolev 154, those things have a poor reputation for safety and aren't very safe in the first place... I know someone who flew on one of them and had a layer of ice forming around the edges of the doors, for instance. I will not be surprised if this crash turns out to be mechanical failure of some sort, but I am still open to pilot error, not so much conspiracy theories. Coincidences happen. ~

Ice can form on any airplane,.. this plane is a refurbished 727 and the safety record is no different from any other airliner. The worst plane in the sky is a dc10.

[ExpandMyMind]

Got this list from another site. Seems the biggest impact is going to be on the Polish military. They lost a lot of top people in this crash.

OFFICIAL DELEGATION

wow, that's incredible. if there is foul play involved here, they may have just pulled off the most successful coo ever.

[joshsluss]

Ice can form on any airplane,.. this plane is a refurbished 727 and the safety record is no different from any other airliner. The worst plane in the sky is a dc10.

Did they find the black box?

[Rhomphaia]

wow, that's incredible. if there is foul play involved here, they may have just pulled off the most successful coo ever.

I don't mean to be a grammar snob. In this case I do want to help. The word you are looking for here is "coup", short for "coup-de-tat".

[ExpandMyMind]

I don't mean to be a grammar snob. In this case I do want to help. The word you are looking for here is "coup", short for "coup-de-tat".

yeah i actually thought that may have been the case and considered writing 'coup-de-tat', but i wasn't sure. thanks for pointing it out.

[MARAB0D]

Okay, let me rephrase, why so many people in a plane flying through an area with a bad safety reputation when it comes to flights?

This is a more important question than you probably can imagine! It is a long story, starts in 1920s. Poland was keeping troops on the border with USSR from 1922 (end of Soviet-Polish war) till 1939 (ww2 start). These troops were specializing in making USSR Western border a hell - this included cross-border shootings and incursions, killings of Soviet diplomats, travelling to Europe in the trains, other types of provocations. When Hitler attacked Poland from the West, USSR immediately attacked it from the East - as both Germany and USSR were suffering from similar border problems with it. USSR made a land grab and seized some territories, and it seized those border troops too. The officers from them were detained in concentration camps and interrogated about the past provocations, there was about 20,000 of them, and USSR was treating them as sworn enemies. When in June 1941 Hitler attacked USSR, Germans were advancing extremely fast and with little resistance from the Soviets, so the risk appeared of these Polish officers to get into German hands. Then USSR decided to destroy them instead, and they all were shot in Katyn forest near Smolensk. This was seen as a war crime even by the Germans, so Gestapo was the first to start the investigation in 1942, when the first bodies were exhumed and first photos made.

Since then the Katyn execution is a major thorn in relationships between Russia and Poland. For years USSR and Russia were refusing to admit this crime, but in the recent years they came to the terms somehow, and Russia admitted the killing but did not admit them being a crime, but a rightful retribution. Anyway, the Polish delegation was heading to this exactly Katyn to mark the commemoration of the event. There was 132 people in the presidential plane, which included most of leading Polish politicians and officials from Chief of Staff to the religious leaders, both Orthodox and Catholic. The plane flew to Moscow first and from there to Smolensk, back to the West.

The importance of the event of the crash may potentially supersede the 1914 Saraevo assassination, as President Kachinski was firmly anti-Russian in his views and policies. If the death of him and his team is blamed on Russia, this may cause a lot of unexpected political ramifications, which I now hesitate even to discuss, so nasty it can all be. Preliminary explanation is that the plane was landing in a thick fog (that was early morning) and tried to land 4 times, the last time touching the tree, which tore off its tail. But of course there would be conspiracy theories, as we are talking about the death of nearly all Polish top rank politicians and generals except PM Tusk who stayed home.

Edited April 11, 2010 by MARAB0D

[Rhomphaia]

This is a more important question than you probably can imagine! It is a long story, starts in 1920s. Poland was keeping troops on the border with USSR from 1922 (end of Soviet-Polish war) till 1939 (ww2 start). These troops were specializing in making USSR Western border a hell - this included cross-border shootings and incursions, killings of Soviet diplomats, travelling to Europe in the trains, other types of provocations. When Hitler attacked Poland from the West, USSR immediately attacked it from the East - as both Germany and USSR were suffering from similar border problems with it. USSR made a land grab and seized some territories, and it seized those border troops too. The officers from them were detained in concentration camps and interrogated about the past provocations, there was about 20,000 of them, and USSR was treating them as sworn enemies. When in June 1941 Hitler attacked USSR, Germans were advancing extremely fast and with little resistance from the Soviets, so the risk appeared of these Polish officers to get into German hands. Then USSR decided to destroy them instead, and they all were shot in Katyn forest near Smolensk. This was seen as a war crime even by the Germans, so Gestapo was the first to start the investigation in 1942, when the first bodies were exhumed and first photos made.

Since then the Katyn execution is a major thorn in relationships between Russia and Poland. For years USSR and Russia were refusing to admit this crime, but in the recent years they came to the terms somehow, and Russia admitted the killing but did not admit them being a crime, but a rightful retribution. Anyway, the Polish delegation was heading to this exactly Katyn to mark the commemoration of the event. There was 132 people in the presidential plane, which included most of leading Polish politicians and officials from Chief of Staff to the religious leaders, both Orthodox and Catholic. The plane flew to Moscow first and from there to Smolensk, back to the West.

The importance of the event of the crash may potentially supersede the 1914 Saraevo assassination, as President Kachinski was firmly anti-Russian in his views and policies. If the death of him and his team is blamed on Russia, this may cause a lot of unexpected political ramifications, which I now hesitate even to discuss, so nasty it can all be. Preliminary explanation is that the plane was landing in a thick fog (that was early morning) and tried to land 4 times, the last time touching the tree, which tore off its tail. But of course there would be conspiracy theories, as we are talking about the death of nearly all Polish top rank politicians and generals except PM Tusk who stayed home.

Ah, Eastern Europe. Never the most stable of regions. A world war was started over an assassination there.

[J.B.]

LOL. And Poland. The country bad-ass enough to arm a bear during one of the World Wars, and then to charge in against tanks on horseback as well.

[MARAB0D]

Ah, Eastern Europe. Never the most stable of regions. A world war was started over an assassination there.

Put it this way - Poland is a NATO member; and its relationships with Russia are such that 7 months ago Russia was emulating a tactical nuclear strike on Polish territory. I am not saying there would be ww3 because of this all, but this would surely not make the world any safer.

[gabe]

Well, this sounds like it's going to be exciting.

[MARAB0D]

LOL. And Poland. The country bad-ass enough to arm a bear during one of the World Wars, and then to charge in against tanks on horseback as well.

Poland feels humiliated - about 500 years ago it was of the size of USA, but then the neighbours (Germany, Russia, Turkey and Sweden) carved multiple colonies out of it. Poles and Russians are parts of one the same tribe, closest relatives possible, almost one people. Except they were baptised in different faiths, the Poles are Catholics. Russia after this had more wars with Poland than with Turkey, and for the first 500 years Poland was a winner, and that damn Smolensk was also a Polish city. In 1607 the Poles captured Moscow and installed there a puppet Tsar. But then the Fortune turned away from them, and in 18th century Prussia and Russia made 3-step partition of Poland, so it became a free country only after communist revolution of 1917 - and then in 1922 it attacked Ukraine and Russia, seeking territorial expansion... Then USSR and Germany partitioned it again in 1939, as it was an English ally between them two. So it is a lot of grudges between them, mainly on the Polish side. And now it is again someone else's ally, this time of USA, between Germany and Russia, which again feel friends. I keep an eye on Poland cuz I am a part-Pole, part-Russian, and I pity them for their sufferings - but cannot approve their provocative policies.

Edited April 11, 2010 by MARAB0D

[Space Commander Travis]

But of course there would be conspiracy theories, as we are talking about the death of nearly all Polish top rank politicians and generals except PM Tusk who stayed home.

Hmmm. Yes, there's a lot of vacancies at the top now, isn't there......

[keithisco]

My guess (and it' nothing more than that). As it was flying in fog (TBC) it would be under IFR rather than VFR, and Instrument mal-function on the aircraft, or ILS malfunction on the ground is the likely cause. IMO

[bmk1245]

Poland feels humiliated - about 500 years ago it was of the size of USA[...]

Small correction - not Poland, but union of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (after Union of Krewo), later Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (Union of Lublin).

[Sante]

Most people from the forum, do not even know where is Poland. I've never been in Poland. And have the nerve to write stupidity.

For clarification. Poland to the time of partition, the three partitions was a great State. Strong. Therefore, the then Russia, Austria and Prussia feared Polish. This is what occurred at a time erasing the Polish map of the world. With the rest, read a little about Polish history. The only and biggest defeat was the Polish sovereignty of the Soviet Union after the Second World War.

And one more thing.

Late President Kaczynski called. And asked me to respect that and not turning his name.

[Belial]

[ExpandMyMind]

Most people from the forum, do not even know where is Poland.

did they all message you to tell you this? if not, then that's quite an assumption. it's near norway, no?

[Princess Serenity]

Poland feels humiliated - about 500 years ago it was of the size of USA, but then the neighbours (Germany, Russia, Turkey and Sweden) carved multiple colonies out of it. Poles and Russians are parts of one the same tribe, closest relatives possible, almost one people. Except they were baptised in different faiths, the Poles are Catholics. Russia after this had more wars with Poland than with Turkey, and for the first 500 years Poland was a winner, and that damn Smolensk was also a Polish city. In 1607 the Poles captured Moscow and installed there a puppet Tsar. But then the Fortune turned away from them, and in 18th century Prussia and Russia made 3-step partition of Poland, so it became a free country only after communist revolution of 1917 - and then in 1922 it attacked Ukraine and Russia, seeking territorial expansion... Then USSR and Germany partitioned it again in 1939, as it was an English ally between them two. So it is a lot of grudges between them, mainly on the Polish side. And now it is again someone else's ally, this time of USA, between Germany and Russia, which again feel friends. I keep an eye on Poland cuz I am a part-Pole, part-Russian, and I pity them for their sufferings - but cannot approve their provocative policies.

I learned something. I did not know about that. I know that Poland kept Germany and Russia at bay. (Maybe I should revive my Poland History thread. If that's okay with the mods.)

I know that Poland has stunk in size but that's kinda big.

Most people from the forum, do not even know where is Poland. I've never been in Poland. And have the nerve to write stupidity.

For clarification. Poland to the time of partition, the three partitions was a great State. Strong. Therefore, the then Russia, Austria and Prussia feared Polish. This is what occurred at a time erasing the Polish map of the world. With the rest, read a little about Polish history. The only and biggest defeat was the Polish sovereignty of the Soviet Union after the Second World War.

And one more thing.

Late President Kaczynski called. And asked me to respect that and not turning his name.

Thank you for this. I've never been outside the States and my grandfather was a polish immigrant. When he came here, he was forced to change his last name.

[MARAB0D]

Small correction - not Poland, but union of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (after Union of Krewo), later Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (Union of Lublin).

It is correct, but the significance of Lithuania was quite negligible in this union, same as the usage of Lithuanian language; in practice Rzech Pospolita was a second "Russian" state as those days there was no differences between Polish and Russian languages, they developed mainly after 16th century. Lithuania was always a small nation, so even now one can compare Polish and Lithuanian populations. The might of Lithuanian state was only noticeable in the period when all surrounding states, Russian or Polish were of small size, but in 14th-15th centuries Lithuania lost its importance. I was calling the state "Poland" pretty much like many people call UK "England".

[MARAB0D]

Most people from the forum, do not even know where is Poland. I've never been in Poland. And have the nerve to write stupidity.

For clarification. Poland to the time of partition, the three partitions was a great State. Strong. Therefore, the then Russia, Austria and Prussia feared Polish. This is what occurred at a time erasing the Polish map of the world. With the rest, read a little about Polish history. The only and biggest defeat was the Polish sovereignty of the Soviet Union after the Second World War.

And one more thing.

Late President Kaczynski called. And asked me to respect that and not turning his name.

On the moment of its partitions in 18th century Poland had no geopolitical importance. It ceased to exist as a political player in late 17th century, being completely defeated by Swedish king Karl XII, the parts of it, not belonging to Sweden were ruled by Augustus of Saxonia, who was a personal friend of Russian tsar Peter the Great, and made Poland to be Russia's satellite and close ally. With rise of Prussia in second half of 18th century, Friedrich II the Great and Catherine II the Great of Russia, also close friends, performed the partitions of Poland, which on that moment was already a failed state. Poland was the Great State before the middle of 17th century, not on the moment of its partitions.

[bmk1245]

It is correct, but the significance of Lithuania was quite negligible in this union, same as the usage of Lithuanian language [...]

Sad, but true...

[...] as those days there was no differences between Polish and Russian languages [...]

Ummm... Thats something I never heard. Do you have any references (web, books)?

[...] I was calling the state "Poland" pretty much like many people call UK "England".

Look below my non-existant avatar, and you will know where I am from, and why I replied with corrections

[Indiogene]

Poland is a proud people and nation among nations, but they have been heiled back for so long...and victimized by the worst kinds of authoritarianism in the past millennia (esp. the battleground between the Nazi invaders and the victorius Soviets). President Bush spoke in Warsaw in May 2005 to admit the US government under Pres. F.D. Roosevelt before his death should never gave the USSR authority to occupy Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe, and in fact the US government apologized to the Polish people. Many exiled Poles at the time knew the danger their historic adversary the Russians had on Poland, and actually wanted a post-Nazi Germany to annex Poland, although they knew ethnic tensions held by Germans coupled with Adolf Hitler's racism against people of Slavic origin would lead to another war. Poland was a partitioned land, which led to a dispersed people whom are today numerous in the USA, Canada, the UK, France and elsewhere in the world. Poland was infamous for being a major killing field of the Holocaust to ended what was once the world's largest Jewish community of 3.5 million when the Nazis invaded in 1939. The Poles shown remorse for the mass explusion of 8 million ethnic Germans and been given eastern Germany (Silesia) in the end of WWII, as "compensation" of eastern Poland now Belarus where Soviet troops killed ethnic Poles. The current Belarussian government is under scrutiny by human rights observers on the treatment of its 500,000 Poles, mostly Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite sects, by a retro-Soviet/pro-Russian nationalist regime is a reminder of what took place in Katyn, Russia 70 yrs. ago.

Edited April 11, 2010 by ADMikey

[bmk1245]

Poland is a proud people and nation among nations, but they have been heiled back for so long...and victimized by the worst kinds of authoritarianism in the past millennia (esp. the battleground between the Nazi invaders and the victorius Soviets). President Bush spoke in Warsaw in May 2005 to admit the US government under Pres. F.D. Roosevelt before his death should never gave the USSR authority to occupy Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe, and in fact the US government apologized to the Polish people. Many exiled Poles at the time knew the danger their historic adversary the Russians had on Poland, and actually wanted a post-Nazi Germany to annex Poland, although they knew ethnic tensions held by Germans coupled with Adolf Hitler's racism against people of Slavic origin would lead to another war. Poland was a partitioned land, which led to a dispersed people whom are today numerous in the USA, Canada, the UK, France and elsewhere in the world. Poland was infamous for being a major killing field of the Holocaust to ended what was once the world's largest Jewish community of 3.5 million when the Nazis invaded in 1939. The Poles shown remorse for the mass explusion of 8 million ethnic Germans and been given eastern Germany (Silesia) in the end of WWII, as "compensation" of eastern Poland now Belarus where Soviet troops killed ethnic Poles. The current Belarussian government is under scrutiny by human rights observers on the treatment of its 500,000 Poles, mostly Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite sects, by a retro-Soviet/pro-Russian nationalist regime is a reminder of what took place in Katyn, Russia 70 yrs. ago.

All Russian neighbours suffered - Baltic states, Ukraine, Poland, etc, but who invaded Lithuania back in 1920? Pole's army under Żeligowski. And of todays part of Lithuania is in Poland (Suvalku krastas, Suwalki) and in Belorus. So stop crying about the past.

BTW, have you heard Wilno nasze?!!!

Back on topic

Airplane crash is tragedy, and I grief for those who perished in this accident.

[MARAB0D]

Sad, but true...

Ummm... Thats something I never heard. Do you have any references (web, books)?

Look below my non-existant avatar, and you will know where I am from, and why I replied with corrections

LOL, there is published correspondence between Ivan IV the Terrible and Stefan Batory, king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. It is neither in modern Russian nor in modern Polish, but in the common archaic language of the Poles. Russians are Poles originally, Polyane. Other name of this large tribe was Dulebs. The division only started in 8th-9th centuries AD after the eastern part of the tribe was taken over by the vikings. You probably read Russian, try searching for Skrynnikov's works, as a historian he was (or is?) specialising in 16th century events, and his works are rich in the references. Lithuania was very strong and influential in the earlier period, before 14th century. But of course Lithuanians are not closely related to Poles and Russians and were a separate celtic-type tribe from start, this is the reason why Union State is sometimes mentioned as "Russian" state, despite "Russian" was supposed to be only the Royal family and aristocracy, while the population of it was simply predominantly Slavic. The modern intermediate form between Russians and Poles are Ukrainians, and between Russians, Poles and Lithuanians - Byelorussians. In the earlier historical period of before 16th century "Russians" were only those directly under the rule of old viking families, while for example Novgorodians were not considering themselves Russians despite were speaking the same language and had similar culture - so Russian language started to be distinguished most likely in late 16th-early 17th century only with formation and strengthening of Russian (Moscow) Empire, and before that period one the same language was called Russian or Polish depending on who was speaking, a Pole or a Russian. There was never any interpreters used.

I am not a big expert on history, but to me it seems indicative, that in old Russia the Lithuanian bloodline of Gedemine was considered of the same level of royalty as Rjurik's line and same level as Genghis-khan bloodline; say Ivan the Terrible when he once resigned throne for 2 years, appointed a tsar the unimportant Tatar prince Simeon bek-Bulat as he was a Genghiside, which caused outrage of the Princes Belski who were of Gedemine line. I can see from this fact that Lithuanians were probably equally close to Poland and Russia despite them being not relatives. The reason may be that Lithuania was capable to hold the balance of power between the two, and thus was treasured by both sides - of course up until the Poles and Lithuanians acquired religious similarity, then Russia fell out of the triangle.