Polish President killed in Plane Crash

[Sante]

[...] as those days there was no differences between Polish and Russian languages [...]

What you say is not pertinent. These two languages are similar to each other but never was one language. The fact they are similar to each other, even very much.

And of todays part of Lithuania is in Poland (Suvalku krastas, Suwalki) and in Belorus

And for the sake of clarity, Suwalki never belonged to Lithuania. It's always been Polish sites. I live in Suwalki whole life and never heard more bull.

These areas have always been among the Polish state.

Like someone above said, let's go back to the topic.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Sante

[J.B.]

They'll be going through another election for sure involving the electable posts. The military ones mean that quite a few people stand to get a sad promotion. The Polish people will get through this, but it's still heartbreaking. Maybe someone else in Europe will donate them some more planes so they never have to run so many officials in one vehicle again? Assuming it was cost that kept the group to a single plane.

[Helen of Annoy]

What you say is not pertinent. These two languages are similar to each other but never was one language. The fact they are similar to each other, even very much.

And for the sake of clarity, Suwalki never belonged to Lithuania. It's always been Polish sites. I live in Suwalki whole life and never heard more bull.

These areas have always been among the Polish state.

Like someone above said, let's go back to the topic.

Anyway, Polish and Russian are two completely separate and distinctive languages today. It’s kind of on topic, because I heard that Russian flight control guy was speaking Russian only, while pilot of the Polish plane expected instructions in English, the official language for all air traffic in the world.

Is that true and is the difference between Polish and Russian big enough for a serious misunderstanding?

[Sante]

Is that true and is the difference between Polish and Russian big enough for a serious misunderstanding?

No. These languages are very similar, although not the same. The second issue is such a universal language is English, pilots use it to contact the control tower. In Smolensk, no one knew English. Polish pilot spoke Russian, so it is communicated. It wasnt first flight this pilot in Russia.

[Helen of Annoy]

No. These languages are very similar, although not the same. The second issue is such a universal language is English, pilots use it to contact the control tower. In Smolensk, no one knew English. Polish pilot spoke Russian, so it is communicated. It wasnt first flight this pilot in Russia.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

The fact that this tragedy happened so near Katyn is just too eerie.

[Princess Serenity]

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

The fact that this tragedy happened so near Katyn is just too eerie.

Katyn? Is that a town? This has happened before near Katyn?

[Helen of Annoy]

Katyn? Is that a town? This has happened before near Katyn?

Katyn Forest, near Smolensk, where Stalin executed more than 20.000 of Poles in 1940, some of them military officers taken prisoners during Soviet invasion of Poland, some civilians with good reputation, because he wanted Poland decapitated - without people able for leadership... and also because he was damn psychopath and the worst scourge that ever hit Europe.

[Belial]

And another conspiracy begins

[Princess Serenity]

Katyn Forest, near Smolensk, where Stalin executed more than 20.000 of Poles in 1940, some of them military officers taken prisoners during Soviet invasion of Poland, some civilians with good reputation, because he wanted Poland decapitated - without people able for leadership... and also because he was damn psychopath and the worst scourge that ever hit Europe.

Ah. I see. I didn't know about that either. Eerie.

[Helen of Annoy]

And another conspiracy begins

Frankly, it’s more like a curse of some sort.

[bmk1245]

[...]try searching for Skrynnikov's works[...]

Thanks, MARAB0D, I'll try to find it.

[bmk1245]

[...]

And for the sake of clarity, Suwalki never belonged to Lithuania. It's always been Polish sites. I live in Suwalki whole life and never heard more bull.

These areas have always been among the Polish state.

Like someone above said, let's go back to the topic.

Lets see the map

link

I guess you think Vilnius is Polish site too, don't you?

[hetrodoxly]

I was speaking to some Polish guys at work and they suspect foul play, the speech the president was going to make would have been very embarrassing to the Russians, according to the guys at work it's on the net?

[MARAB0D]

Thanks, MARAB0D, I'll try to find it.

What is the name of Mariyampol now? My Polish gg-father had considerable family land property there before 1917. That land remained abandoned in some 1890s when he was appointed State Solicitor in Penza, and I have no idea what happened to it or their house. To me it shows the area was always a sort of in "common use" by all residing around.

[Sante]

bmk1245now i see. U are Lithuanian. And you always have problems on the ground. With you can always argue about it. Vilnius as you know, my dear, was once part of the Polish-Lithuanian state. Likewise, Warsaw and Suwalki. So not leave me here with such stupidity.

Tavo

[bmk1245]

What is the name of Mariyampol now? [...]

Marijampolė, while in soviet era (1955-1989) was renamed to Kapsukas.

[bmk1245]

bmk1245now i see. U are Lithuanian. And you always have problems on the ground. With you can always argue about it. Vilnius as you know, my dear, was once part of the Polish-Lithuanian state. Likewise, Warsaw and Suwalki. So not leave me here with such stupidity.

Tavo

*sigh*

Whatever makes you happy

[MARAB0D]

Marijampolė, while in soviet era (1955-1989) was renamed to Kapsukas.

Thank you very much, I am just trying to find it on the map - hahaha, and to look from Google earth at our past family wealth

[Lord Umbarger]

Was anyone else amazed that it took almost 36 hours for the first conspiracy theories to come out about the plane crash!?! No, really! I was astounded!

[Godsnmbr1]

Was anyone else amazed that it took almost 36 hours for the first conspiracy theories to come out about the plane crash!?! No, really! I was astounded!

36 hours? Anyone with half a brain would consider foul play as a possibility from the start.

[RazielKTB]

This is a more important question than you probably can imagine! It is a long story, starts in 1920s. Poland was keeping troops on the border with USSR from 1922 (end of Soviet-Polish war) till 1939 (ww2 start). These troops were specializing in making USSR Western border a hell - this included cross-border shootings and incursions, killings of Soviet diplomats, travelling to Europe in the trains, other types of provocations. When Hitler attacked Poland from the West, USSR immediately attacked it from the East - as both Germany and USSR were suffering from similar border problems with it. USSR made a land grab and seized some territories, and it seized those border troops too. The officers from them were detained in concentration camps and interrogated about the past provocations, there was about 20,000 of them, and USSR was treating them as sworn enemies. When in June 1941 Hitler attacked USSR, Germans were advancing extremely fast and with little resistance from the Soviets, so the risk appeared of these Polish officers to get into German hands. Then USSR decided to destroy them instead, and they all were shot in Katyn forest near Smolensk. This was seen as a war crime even by the Germans, so Gestapo was the first to start the investigation in 1942, when the first bodies were exhumed and first photos made.

Since then the Katyn execution is a major thorn in relationships between Russia and Poland. For years USSR and Russia were refusing to admit this crime, but in the recent years they came to the terms somehow, and Russia admitted the killing but did not admit them being a crime, but a rightful retribution. Anyway, the Polish delegation was heading to this exactly Katyn to mark the commemoration of the event. There was 132 people in the presidential plane, which included most of leading Polish politicians and officials from Chief of Staff to the religious leaders, both Orthodox and Catholic. The plane flew to Moscow first and from there to Smolensk, back to the West.

The importance of the event of the crash may potentially supersede the 1914 Saraevo assassination, as President Kachinski was firmly anti-Russian in his views and policies. If the death of him and his team is blamed on Russia, this may cause a lot of unexpected political ramifications, which I now hesitate even to discuss, so nasty it can all be. Preliminary explanation is that the plane was landing in a thick fog (that was early morning) and tried to land 4 times, the last time touching the tree, which tore off its tail. But of course there would be conspiracy theories, as we are talking about the death of nearly all Polish top rank politicians and generals except PM Tusk who stayed home.

Those Polish officers (22.000 people) were relay brain-trust of Poland, scholars, scientist... Not some diversion group. And it is ironic that polish ''elite'' died on the same day only couple decades later. Who would profit from this? Mostly China or some other nation that need's unstable region. History is repeating itself once again.

[MARAB0D]

Those Polish officers (22.000 people) were relay brain-trust of Poland, scholars, scientist... Not some diversion group. And it is ironic that polish ''elite'' died on the same day only couple decades later. Who would profit from this? Mostly China or some other nation that need's unstable region. History is repeating itself once again.

It does not look like this event may cause some instability in the region - quite on the contrary it seems to have caused a good degree of reconciliation between Poland and Russia. At least I read that Russian central TV is going to show the movie Katyn and that the population is really shocked with the disaster. As you probably noticed from my post, I used the old Soviet version of the event - simply because till now it was the only one I knew, I was even under impression that the execution happened in Summer 1941, not in spring 1940... I can understand, where this Polish persistent hostility to Russia and Germany originates from, but alas, I cannot co-feel with the Poles on the historical past, as I feel more respect to the nations which can decently lose, just compare with Sweden, Finland, Turkey, or even with Germany. Soviet version of the Katyn events worked fine for decades, as common perception in Russia always was that "everything can be expected" from Poland, so the people were trusting whatever they were told about this country, compare this with them never trusting to what was said about USA or England. Personally I still, maybe subconsciously, keep the possibility open that WW2 started because the Polish military really attacked that German radiostation, as this seems to fit the general political style - and this even given that my own grandma was Polish and Roman Catholic. But I am watching what happens now with interest, despite I do not really care if Russia and Poland come to some terms. To me it seems that anti-Russian party in Poland suffered a severe loss, so the first to benefit was of course Russia and Tusk. I really doubt about Chinese interests involved in the area, they have little there to fish for. One can actually judge by the news - say BBC is very positive about the development in Russo-Polish relationships, while CNN makes some funny hints all the time...

[bmk1245]

Thank you very much, I am just trying to find it on the map - hahaha, and to look from Google earth at our past family wealth

I hope you'll find what you are looking for

BTW, I uploaded topographical map of the area of your interest (data from 1980-1985, in russian).

[MARAB0D]

I hope you'll find what you are looking for

BTW, I uploaded topographical map of the area of your interest (data from 1980-1985, in russian).

Wow! Thank you! Got both pieces!

[conspiracyHQ]

Here's a video supposedly from the crash site.

The story just gets stranger and stranger.

And to make it even stranger, reports are

the guy who shot this video is now dead.

Is this true?

Video:

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/832.html