Doggerland

[Abramelin]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:15 PM, locomekipkachelfantje said:

If they came from near the Black Sea, when would thàt have been?

Interestingly, if these 'gods' went on the move to flee from a flooding of their homeland, they eventually met these socalled 'common people' who had fled from a flooding of thèir homeland in the North Sea.

 

As proposed, the Early Holocene Black Sea flood scenario describes events that would have profoundly affected prehistoric settlement in eastern Europe and adjacent parts of Asia and possibly was the basis of oral history concerning Noah's flood.[4] Some archaeologists support this theory as an explanation for the lack of Neolithic sites in northern Turkey.[5][6][7] In 2003, Ryan and coauthors revised the dating of the early Holocene flood to 8800 years ago, c. 6800 BCE.[8]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

You'd think that either event would end up in myths.

Edited to add:

The only thing that comes up in my mind is Ragnarök, but that is supposed to happen in the future:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarök

>>

- Emptying of Lake Agassiz

- Explosive eruption of Mt.Edna and subsequent tsunami in the Med., maybe causing the start of the flooding of the Black Sea

- Storegga Slide and subsequent tsunami in the North Sea/Doggerland

- Possible impact of a bolid near west coast of Norway, possibly causing the Storegga slide (Tolmann hypothesis)

And all happening around the same time.

I'd like to add a map I found a while ago. No idea if there could be a connection with the quoted post:

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

I'd like to add a map I found a while ago. No idea if there could be a connection with the quoted post:

It took me a while to find a source for the image, but here it is:

https://indo-european.eu/2021/02/the-importance-of-archaeology-before-population-genomics/

Another image from that site:

 

[Abramelin]

“The Final Days of Doggerland” by Mike Meier about neolithic Doggerland to be published in the Fall of 2022.

https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/577346062/the-final-days-of-doggerland-by-mike-meier-about-neolithic-doggerland-to-be-published-in-the-fall-of-2022

"Many aspects of the story are based on archeological facts, such as the migration of the Yamnaya people, the gradual disappearance of Doggerland, the use of garlic mustard to spice food...”

— Mike Meier, author of THE FINAL DAYS OF DOGGERLAND

---

Anyone remember this:

 

 

 

[jethrofloyd]

[Abramelin]

Observations of postglacial sea‐level rise in northwest European traditions

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Observations-of-postglacial-sea‐level-rise-in-Nunn-Creach/2e58504e825b29d42a05ed0f311a535c7d998bbb#citing-papers

In preliterate contexts, diverse knowledge was accumulated, processed and communicated orally. Recent research demonstrates that observations of memorable events were transferred in this way for thousands of years sometimes. Much of this information was eventually written down to reach literate audiences, which commonly judge such ‘myths and legends’ to be cultural inventions rather than ancient memories. This study examines 15 ‘submergence stories’ from northwest European coasts and argues that they plausibly represent memories of postglacial sea‐level rise, which, in this region, was spatially and temporally variable owing to the interaction of sea‐level rise with glacial isostatic adjustment. This study combines culture history and knowledge of earth rheology to argue that memories of the effects of postglacial land submergence in northwest Europe have endured for 5000–15,000 years. This requires a longevity of memory, orally communicated, that is not unprecedented, yet surprises many. It also shows that scientists might benefit from trying to better understand oral traditions from cultures elsewhere in the world that may have preserved observations of memorable events. 

Ok, so I downloaded the paper (it's free, and no registration required) hoping to find something concerning Doggerland, but all the examples the paper gives are those of Ireland, Wales and Brittany.

[flashman7870]

On 7/3/2022 at 1:34 PM, Abramelin said:

Observations of postglacial sea‐level rise in northwest European traditions

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Observations-of-postglacial-sea‐level-rise-in-Nunn-Creach/2e58504e825b29d42a05ed0f311a535c7d998bbb#citing-papers

In preliterate contexts, diverse knowledge was accumulated, processed and communicated orally. Recent research demonstrates that observations of memorable events were transferred in this way for thousands of years sometimes. Much of this information was eventually written down to reach literate audiences, which commonly judge such ‘myths and legends’ to be cultural inventions rather than ancient memories. This study examines 15 ‘submergence stories’ from northwest European coasts and argues that they plausibly represent memories of postglacial sea‐level rise, which, in this region, was spatially and temporally variable owing to the interaction of sea‐level rise with glacial isostatic adjustment. This study combines culture history and knowledge of earth rheology to argue that memories of the effects of postglacial land submergence in northwest Europe have endured for 5000–15,000 years. This requires a longevity of memory, orally communicated, that is not unprecedented, yet surprises many. It also shows that scientists might benefit from trying to better understand oral traditions from cultures elsewhere in the world that may have preserved observations of memorable events. 

Ok, so I downloaded the paper (it's free, and no registration required) hoping to find something concerning Doggerland, but all the examples the paper gives are those of Ireland, Wales and Brittany.

Which is very interesting in and of itself. Flood myths are so prolific in the British Isles among the Celts, moreso anywhere else, even the Low Countries. 

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

Which is very interesting in and of itself. Flood myths are so prolific in the British Isles among the Celts, moreso anywhere else, even the Low Countries. 

But those legends, at least the ones mentioned in the paper, don't go back far enough. Particularly in the Low Countries there have been numerous floods of much more recent times. Because of those several tribes moved to England, Scotland, Wales, Brittany and Ireland. No doubt they took their experiences with these floods along with them, which in turn could have become myths and legends.

[flashman7870]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

But those legends, at least the ones mentioned in the paper, don't go back far enough. Particularly in the Low Countries there have been numerous floods of much more recent times. Because of those several tribes moved to England, Scotland, Wales, Brittany and Ireland. No doubt they took their experiences with these floods along with them, which in turn could have become myths and legends.

Almost all of the myths would be Celtic is the issue with this analysis, however, arriving some time in the first millenium. The question would be, where did the Celts pick up their prolific flood stories?

In terms of continental celts, if their origin is indeed in Central Europe/Austria, it seems unlikely that any flood stories would have come from here. Perhaps some stories of flash flooding and rapidly melting alpine glaciers, but nothing like the stories of vast permanently submerged lands. If however the ultimate origin of the Celts is in Iberia as some have suggested, it is possible that there could have been flood myths from here, perhaps even from Tartessos (or Atlantis - YMMV).

And yet, from what little we see, it seems like the Continental Celts (the Gauls, the Celtiberians and such) did not have much of an account of flood stories in their mythology. Of course we have much less solid information on the history and belief of the Continental Celts compared to the Britons, but from what little we do have we don't have any indication of a rich tapestry of a variety of flood stories.

So that leaves us with the Island Celts, the Britons. From whence do they gain their many and detailed flood stories? Could it have been that these were inherited from the Aborigines of the British Isles, who themselves took it from their own history in Doggerland? Or were there any floods in the British Isles after their arrival that were traumatic and significant enough to have spread as far as Ireland, Scotland, and Brittany? 

The only incident I'm aware of that could fit the bill would be the sinking of the Isle of Scilly, which may well have happened in historic times. Given the economic significance that the isle would have had in Celtic Britain, it doesn't seem a stretch to think that the destruction of such an island could have had ripples all across the British isles. 

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

So that leaves us with the Island Celts, the Britons. From whence do they gain their many and detailed flood stories?

I told you in my post you quoted.

Most probably these flood stories came from Celtic tribes living in the Low Countries. These tribes fled west, and took their flood stories with them.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Abramelin

[flashman7870]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I told you in my post you quoted.

Most probably these flood stories came from Celtic tribes living in the Low Countries. These tribes fled west, and took their flood stories with them.

Sorry, I thought that was referring to the Anglo-Saxons, and thus not relevant tot the Celts. Did the Celts that colonized Britain come from the Low Countries? I thought they primarily sailed directly from Spain, though Caesar did characterize some of the tribes in the south of England as Belgic. 

[Abramelin]

14 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

Sorry, I thought that was referring to the Anglo-Saxons, and thus not relevant tot the Celts. Did the Celts that colonized Britain come from the Low Countries? I thought they primarily sailed directly from Spain, though Caesar did characterize some of the tribes in the south of England as Belgic. 

Maybe you should start reading the next 2 posts from "The Menapi Quest" thread:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/355711-the-menapia-quest/page/3/#comment-7392157

Or better: read the whole thread. It's only 3 pages.

[flashman7870]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe you should start reading the next 2 posts from "The Menapi Quest" thread:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/355711-the-menapia-quest/page/3/#comment-7392157

Or better: read the whole thread. It's only 3 pages.

Read the whole thread. Interesting stuff.

So if I'm interpreting it correctly in the context of this conversation: The prominence of flood myths in the British Isles among Celts comes from the migrations of the Celtic Menapii (and Frisii and the Cimbrii, since you think they were Celts too) in the wake of the Cimbrian Flood in the second to first century BC, establishing colonies throughout the British isles. From here the story of this catastrophic flood spread and entered into general folklore, prompting a proliferation of flood myths?

[jaylemurph]

...are there really /more/ or special flood legends in the UK than other places?

Because, as I've pointed out many, many times here, virtually all human civilizations and cities are river-based or coastal (and there is literally no place in Britain very distant from the sea), so /of course/ we're going to be pre-occupied with flood stories. I feel like you're seeing something you want (and is super convenient to your theory) but isn't backed up by actual data.

And we know the Celts had IE cultural inheritance and contact with the Greeks, so they would have had opportunities to share/influence each other's flood stories.

--Jaylemurph

[flashman7870]

2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

...are there really /more/ or special flood legends in the UK than other places?

Because, as I've pointed out many, many times here, virtually all human civilizations and cities are river-based or coastal (and there is literally no place in Britain very distant from the sea), so /of course/ we're going to be pre-occupied with flood stories. I feel like you're seeing something you want (and is super convenient to your theory) but isn't backed up by actual data.

And we know the Celts had IE cultural inheritance and contact with the Greeks, so they would have had opportunities to share/influence each other's flood stories.

--Jaylemurph

At least compared to other European and especially North European peoples, it feels like we get a ton more flood stories out of the Celts. Consider that 5 of the 10 flood myths listed on wikipedia's article listing such myths are Celtic (though this is cheating a bit as all of the Greek flood myths are encompassed under a general category "Greek flood myths," and of course we cannot take this as a representative sample). 

I don't think IE cultural inheritances are at issue here, as flood myths aren't any more common to IE peoples than any other. And the suggestion that Brittanic flood myths can be chalked up to Greek cultural influence quite frankly smacks of the sort of over-indulgence in diffusionism that I expect from fringe theorists rather than skeptics. 

I actually don't think it's particularly likely that, even if there is an overrepresentation of Celtic flood myths, that it has it's ultimate provenance in Doggerland. For all of Abe's travails, it seems like the migrations of peoples wiped out any memory of Doggerland, extraordinary as that is in itself. 

[jaylemurph]

36 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

At least compared to other European and especially North European peoples, it feels like we get a ton more flood stories out of the Celts. Consider that 5 of the 10 flood myths listed on wikipedia's article listing such myths are Celtic (though this is cheating a bit as all of the Greek flood myths are encompassed under a general category "Greek flood myths," and of course we cannot take this as a representative sample).

That's sort of my problem with this thread and some of its discussions. There's a lot of feels but very little hard data to look at. I don't feel like there's a consistent methodology used to eliminate false assumptions or other manner of mythological sharing. To me, you just sort of brushed of IE heritage that the Celts possessed and that we know comes through in other IE branches, but again, not for any sound, methodological reason.

Also, what's your criterion for "Celtic" flood stories -- it's not as if the Celts left direct written material; any evidence we have of their mythology comes from second-hand sources, like the Romans, who were notorious for coopting stories and making misleading or flat-out incorrect correspondences to what they were familiar with. I get the feeling connections being made are out of convenient service to pre-made conclusions than reflecting historical reality.

I want to emphasize these are /my/ problems in interpreting the info, not yours or Abe's in theorizing. It's not an attack, but asking questions that seem significant to me that aren't elsewise being addressed.

--Jaylemurph

[flashman7870]

4 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

That's sort of my problem with this thread and some of its discussions. There's a lot of feels but very little hard data to look at. I don't feel like there's a consistent methodology used to eliminate false assumptions or other manner of mythological sharing. To me, you just sort of brushed of IE heritage that the Celts possessed and that we know comes through in other IE branches, but again, not for any sound, methodological reason.

Also, what's your criterion for "Celtic" flood stories -- it's not as if the Celts left direct written material; any evidence we have of their mythology comes from second-hand sources, like the Romans, who were notorious for coopting stories and making misleading or flat-out incorrect correspondences to what they were familiar with. I get the feeling connections being made are out of convenient service to pre-made conclusions than reflecting historical reality.

I want to emphasize these are /my/ problems in interpreting the info, not yours or Abe's in theorizing. It's not an attack, but asking questions that seem significant to me that aren't elsewise being addressed.

--Jaylemurph

Certainly, this is all impressionistic. I'm not a scholar, I'm not doing a dissertation here, and if I were to do a dissertation I probably wouldn't waste my time on this topic. I'm just spinning just-so stories. I would say it's worth keeping in mind that new paradigms of science and history have in the past begun with just-so stories, but then 99.999% of just so stories end up being pointless exercises, pointing towards false conclusions, and that figure probably goes up a few decimal points when they're being constructed by laymen. 

Though as to the point about the dismissal of IE heritage - I just don't see the relevance. Starting from my assertion (based on an impression) that the Celts seem to have more stories than most Northern Europeans about great floods, the fact that the Celts are IE becomes totally irrelevant since we're comparing them entirely to a basket of Indo-European peoples (except I guess the Finns and the Estonians). The fact that the Celts are Indo-Europeans could be useful in characterizing some of these stories specifically, but is totally irrelevant to the contention (whether it be true or not) that the Celts seem to have more flood stories than their surroundings. 

I should also note that for the most part when I'm saying "Celtic," I'm referring to Insular Celts, Britons, Bretons, Welsh, Irish. As to my sources: I'm mostly reliant on sagas, epics, and 'histories,' from the Dark Ages on, written by Britons. These are written not by Romans, but by Roman Catholics. The problems with this scheme are obvious, given that they're being recorded centuries or millenia after any genuine mythological kernel they derive from, and scandalously are after contact with the Biblical flood myth. And yet, it's hardly sustainable to say that these sorts of texts are totally useless for discussions of ancient Celtic belief given that they are often and eagerly cited when it comes to reconstructing the ancient Celtic religion. 

That said, two more problems I would note with this scheme. One, it could be that the unique history of early medieval literacy among Britons simply allowed them to better record their many mythological stories. Literazation of, say, the Germanic societies occurred later, less thoroughly, and in such a manner as to acculturate them and lose a lot more of their stories. 

Second, an obvious selection bias: I am an English speaker. Naturally, there is going to be more written in English on "our" ancient stories (those native to the British Isles) in general then there are going to be for non-English cultures in English, even if those British stories are not particularly widespread or unique. 

[Abramelin]

23 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

Read the whole thread. Interesting stuff.

So if I'm interpreting it correctly in the context of this conversation: The prominence of flood myths in the British Isles among Celts comes from the migrations of the Celtic Menapii (and Frisii and the Cimbrii, since you think they were Celts too) in the wake of the Cimbrian Flood in the second to first century BC, establishing colonies throughout the British isles. From here the story of this catastrophic flood spread and entered into general folklore, prompting a proliferation of flood myths?

That's about what I think happened, only starting earlier like around 300 bce.

I am, however, not saying all the flood myths originated on the SE- coast of the North Sea. But considering the fact that that area, from Flanders to Jutland suffered from numerous floods throughout history made me think those floods were responsible for many if not most Celtic myths about floods.

Edited to add:

The 300 bce date I got from this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/nyregion/30tsunami.html

Edited July 6, 2022 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

However, all the previous has no significance for anything happening 6150 bce or earlier. Well, not according to me that is.

[Abramelin]

16 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

That's sort of my problem with this thread and some of its discussions. There's a lot of feels but very little hard data to look at. I don't feel like there's a consistent methodology used to eliminate false assumptions or other manner of mythological sharing

And I agree.

Now, what I am trying to do is this (and not only in this thread): I connect dots which either no one has ever connected or no one was willing to, and by that I hope someone will show up, saying: "Wait a minute, this makes me think of X!'

Believe me, scientists regularly use that non-method, especially when they got stuck.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Abramelin

[flashman7870]

46 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

That's about what I think happened, only starting earlier like around 300 bce.

I am, however, not saying all the flood myths originated on the SE- coast of the North Sea. But considering the fact that that area, from Flanders to Jutland suffered from numerous floods throughout history made me think those floods were responsible for many if not most Celtic myths about floods.

Edited to add:

The 300 bce date I got from this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/nyregion/30tsunami.html

My primary issue with this idea is that it doesn't seem to be the case that the Menapii were the primary settlers among the Celts of the British Isles. The theory you talk about in that thread seems to be a controversial one, whereas if the Menapii and their stories really did permeate Great Britain I'd think it would be better accepted.

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

My primary issue with this idea is that it doesn't seem to be the case that the Menapii were the primary settlers among the Celts of the British Isles. The theory you talk about in that thread seems to be a controversial one, whereas if the Menapii and their stories really did permeate Great Britain I'd think it would be better accepted.

Ok. And what do you think about the Celtic Belgae being the later Fir Bolg of Ireland?

The Menapi, according to one source I forgot about were part of these Belgae.

[flashman7870]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ok. And what do you think about the Celtic Belgae being the later Fir Bolg of Ireland?

The Menapi, according to one source I forgot about were part of these Belgae.

Huh, I remember your comparison between Belgae and Fir Bolg years ago, but did not remember any Menapii connection. Interesting...

[Abramelin]

20 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

Huh, I remember your comparison between Belgae and Fir Bolg years ago, but did not remember any Menapii connection. Interesting...

The problem, according to me, is the rather simplistic division between Germanic tribes living north of the western Rhine, and Celtic tribes south of the western Rhine.

This division was made up by Julius Caesar.

Many have wondered about the people in the North-West Block being Germanic or Celtic (-this is about language-). Some even thought these people may have spoken  a non IE language (my guess: a language related to Maglemosian with Celtic and Germanic influences).

I think they spoke a Celtic language with borrowings from the neighbouring Germanic tribes.

I know I guess a lot.

Sorry @jaylemurph

 

 

 

[Abramelin]

From an interesting website:

All around the coasts of Britain and Ireland, sea-level researchers find the physical evidence of submerged forests. Although these date from various eras, we may see that they are all of Neolithic age or earlier. Young trees and other land vegetation cannot grow in a salt-water environment. The preservation of tree-stumps, fallen trunks and peat layers beneath beach-sand imply that they grew on dry land and the mature forests were rapidly covered by sand, before they could decay. Furthermore, we can be sure that much of the modern coastline has changed little since Roman times. We know from Diodorus Siculus (first-century BC) that St Michael’s Mount was already a tidal island called Ictis, to which ships would arrive to buy the Cornish tin. [28] Radiocarbon dates for the submerged forest around St Michael’s Mount give ages between 4000 and 6000 BP, all far older than the sixth-century when the submergence of Lyonesse is usually placed. [29]

 

Submerged forests from Cardigan Bay give radiocarbon dates ranging from 5500 BP for the tree stumps around Borth, to 3500 BP at nearby Ynyslas. In the Bristol Channel the deposits at Stolford date from 5398-5020 BP and those around the dolmen at Westward-Ho in Devon gave 6500 BP. Other dates from the submerged forest deposits of the east coast are typically older, associated with the flooding of the North Sea land-bridge. By the very nature of submerged forests deposits we can infer that these were rapid transgressions rather than a gradual encroachment of the sea. The date of submergence cannot be older than the forests. The evidence from the western coasts therefore suggests a cluster of dates in the Middle Neolithic around five thousand years ago, together with a later episode around 1500 BC.

 

Could folk-memory really survive from such remote eras? If we look further back, to the Mesolithic, we find the acceptance by archaeologists of the Maglemosian Culture since the early twentieth century; a community of hunter-gatherers who lived both in northern England and Denmark, before the flooding of the North Sea separated them sometime between 9,000 and 6,000 years ago. However it is only quite recently that archaeologists have dared to consider that during the period of 3,000 years when Doggerland was above the waves, people may actually have lived on what is now the floor of the North Sea! [30] This is rather obvious when you think about it. It is only a small leap of imagination from there to see the possibility of settlements of similar age on the now submerged land to the west of Britain. It is a question of when, not if. It is a much greater leap of imagination for archaeologists to perceive a fairy-tale Arthurian Lyonesse in the flints and pottery that they find.

https://www.third-millennium.co.uk/lyonesse-lost

[Abramelin]

I think Avalon, the White Isle, is the Isle of the Dead: Dogger Island.

Dogger Island may have survived long after the Storegga Slide that caused the largest tsunami in human history.

Or it was the archipelago close to the south-eastern coast of England.