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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

Yes, Hades: I have mentioned Hades in this thread too.

And the river Styx which coiled 9 tims around Hades.. like a guarding snake. That made me think of that snake that nibbled at the roots of Yggdrasil, a snake that lived in a sacred well on/in Niflheim (and could that be the big lake on Doggerland, a lake formed by the Silverpit Crater - which isn't a crater after all - ??). After England finally got separated from mainland Europe the new southern currents nibbled at the new coasts of the North Sea, currents that coiled around Dogger Island, the remaining part of Doggerland after the Storegga Slide...

Hades, another Underworld, and associated with mists.

Yes, all very interesting indeedy.

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Abe, did you ever catch up with this article? I'm sure everyone else might find it interesting too.

In March 2007, the New York Times ran an article discussing the DNA evidence for the theory that the English and the Irish are both largely descended from late Ice Age migrants, with only a small genetic contribution from more recent invaders. This article extensively cited the conclusions of Stephen Oppenheimer, but it also included these eye-catching paragraphs:

Dr. Oppenheimer has relied on work by Peter Forster, a geneticist at Anglia Ruskin University, to argue that Celtic is a much more ancient language than supposed, and that Celtic speakers could have brought knowledge of agriculture to Ireland, where it first appeared. He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion. . . .

Germanic is usually assumed to have split into three branches: West Germanic, which includes German and Dutch; East Germanic, the language of the Goths and Vandals; and North Germanic, consisting of the Scandinavian languages. Dr. Forster’s analysis shows English is not an off-shoot of West Germanic, as usually assumed, but is a branch independent of the other three, which also implies a greater antiquity. . . .

Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.

Foster's ideas have understandably not been well-received by linguists. He is, after all, a mere geneticist -- and one whose conclusions fly in the face of all conventional theory. However, if only because they align so closely with my prior speculations, I have to take them seriously.

If Foster is correct, then the blue arrows on the map above correspond precisely with his four branches of Germanic -- English with the left-hand arrow, West Germanic with the lower right-hand arrow, which points to the Netherlands and northern Germany, East Germanic with the arrow that zooms off to the right, and North Germanic with the two small arrows that head up into Denmark and Sweden.

That would be interesting enough in itself, but there's also a second piece to the story..

In April 2007, an article appeared describing how archaeologists were mapping a "lost country" beneath what is now the North Sea, between Britain and the Netherlands. Hunter-gatherer communities had thrived there between about 10,000 and 6000 BC, when it was drowned by rising sea levels as the last of the Ice Age glaciers melted.

In the map, present-day Britain is shown on the left, with part of Ireland beyond it. The present-day Netherlands are on the right, and Doggerland is in between and connected to both.

A later article from July 2008 (which now appears to be available only as paid content) provided additional details, including the provocative notion that "Mesolithic people have in the past been depicted by researchers as restless nomads and Doggerland as a land bridge through which they passed without leaving a trace. The new map suggests that, on the contrary, Doggerland would have been an ideal environment for them to linger in."

In fact, the article suggests that Doggerland may have been such a rich environment that its inhabitants were not nomads at all, but had the luxury of a sedentary lifestyle -- something that has been available to hunter-gatherers in only a few optimal locations, such as prehistoric Japan and the Pacific Northwest.

It seems as though we might conceive of Doggerland almost as a kind of local, small-scale Atlantis, whose gradual submergence forced its inhabitants to migrate to Britain on the west and the Netherlands on the east. As they did so, they could have maintained their sedentary ways by acquiring the new techniques of agriculture, which were just then arriving from the east and south.

Additional evidence is provided by the Frisian language and culture. These days, the Frisians amount to some 400,000 people living in one province of the Netherlands and speaking their own distinctive language. In the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, however, they extended much further up and down the North Sea coast. (The pale circle on the map indicates roughly the present location of Friesland.)

Frisian has the distinction of being the closest of any language to English. There is even a bit of traditional doggerel which was concocted to demonstrate the point. It runs, "'Good butter and good cheese' is good English and good Fries." (Some excellent translations of Bob Dylan songs into Frisian help make the case as well.)

The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland.. However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.

The only unanswered questions that remain have to do with what the the potentially sophisticated Mesolithic culture of Doggerland might actually have been like -- and what traces it may have left in the societies on either side of the North Sea that it influenced.

http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/wonder/indoeuropean/doggerland.html

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Yes, all very interesting indeedy.

The main problem is of course the same one as before: the time frame.

According to science Dogger Island finally disappeared around 5000/5500 BC (the last Storegga Slide took place at 6145 BC). Even if the French writers Sylvain Tristan and Jean Deruelle are right, then still it stayed above sealevel to 3000 BC at the latest.

Could a(n orally transmitted) myth linger on for thousands of years before it was put down in words on rock and paper (runes) ??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Cool.

My answer was directed at Swede.

I agree that it's because it seems a bit dull that no one is getting into it. But I think the idea certainly has merit and it was land that is now submerged so people must have left it and probably knew the story of it sinking. The connection to Niflheim is imo very strong.

Another fringe theory mentions Walcheren as the seat of Hades, described by Homer.

Already in Roman days, the island was a point of departure for ships going to Britain and it had a temple of the goddess Nehalennia who was popular with those who wished to brave the waters of the North Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walcheren

Here we have Nehallenia,(Nyhellenia) at Walcheren (sometimes called Walhallagaren) which has been described in at least one theory as being the seat of Hades.

Sorry sweet heart XXX

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Abe, did you ever catch up with this article? I'm sure everyone else might find it interesting too.

http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/wonder/indoeuropean/doggerland.html

Yes, you bet I did. But I understand this thread is quite large so no doubt some things will be repeated. Even I forget sometimes if I posted about something here or not (or elsewhere).

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The main problem is of course the same one as before: the time frame.

According to science Dogger Island finally disappeared around 5000/5500 BC (the last Storegga Slide took place at 6145 BC). Even if the French writers Sylvain Tristan and Jean Deruelle are right, then still it stayed above sealevel to 3000 BC at the latest.

Could a(n orally transmitted) myth linger on for thousands of years before it was put down in words on rock and paper (runes) ??

.

I believe in the culture it would have been in, yes. The Western Europeans, whether they be true Celts or earlier ones who became who we knew as Celts, are renowned for their ancient oral traditions, they can recall these poems for generations. In those days my guess would be they could keep them for even longer.

If it wasn't in the area it is I'd say no, but Celtic bards are legendary for recalling these stories and imo there is no reason not to think they could not have been passed on for hundreds of generations.

Even a telling of a Greek myth has the mention of it...

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

The Celts of the West knew so well, one of the most ancient of Greek myths. It was them who possessed the Phaethon story.

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Yes, you bet I did. But I understand this thread is quite large so no doubt some things will be repeated. Even I forget sometimes if I posted about something here or not (or elsewhere).

Well, well, well, weren't you on an other thread asking me what I was on, you don't have to take my advice but get off the bottle and get on the herb and maybe you come out of your drunken stupor and your eyes and hears will become wide and you will know.PS Peace be with you.

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I believe in the culture it would have been in, yes. The Western Europeans, whether they be true Celts or earlier ones who became who we knew as Celts, are renowned for their ancient oral traditions, they can recall these poems for generations. In those days my guess would be they could keep them for even longer.

If it wasn't in the area it is I'd say no, but Celtic bards are legendary for recalling these stories and imo there is no reason not to think they could not have been passed on for hundreds of generations.

Even a telling of a Greek myth has the mention of it...

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

The Celts of the West knew so well, one of the most ancient of Greek myths. It was them who possessed the Phaethon story.

Now I don't mean to get in on some of this but you know the Mic- Mac have a myth or legend that was past down by oral tradition and it speaks of a time when the Great Ice Boat went on bye and it gives the name of P.E.I of today as well in English it is " When a boat weighs heavy in the water, when seen from far off" but before this it was called "Our Great Boat". What I'm getting at is it sounds of a time of the glaciers and how P.E.I was created in a sense by the glaciers because P.E.I is were they stopped and they started to reseed from there or float on bye like a boat.

I won't bring up here as to where that boat can be seen today, is at not on this one but back on my story.

and if true that goes back a little more than a few thousand years for a story to be passed down does it not.

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I think Heligoland can offer some clues, inhabited by ethnic Frisias. The geological make up particularly seems to suggest it was part of something much bigger at one time. Considering Doggerland would have been in the area of the German Bight, Heligoland could have been part of it. The sheer cliffs of Heligoland look like they have just fallen away to me, rather than been eroded in any way.

The island of Heligoland is a geological oddity; the presence of the main island's characteristic red sedimentary rock in the middle of the German Bight is unusual. It is the only such formation of cliffs along the continental coast of the North Sea. The formation itself is from the early Triassic geologic age, the formation is called Bunter. It is older than the white chalk that underlies the island Düne, the same rock that forms the white cliffs of Dover in England, and cliffs of Danish and German islands in the Baltic Sea. In fact, a small chalk rock close to Heligoland, called witt Kliff[2] (white cliff), is known to have existed within sight of the island to the west till the early 18th century, when storm floods finally eroded it to below sea level.

Heligoland's rock is significantly harder than the postglacial sediments and sands forming the islands and coastlines to the east of the island. This is why the core of the island, which a thousand years ago was still surrounded by a large, low-lying marshland and sand dunes separated from coast in the east only by narrow channels, has remained to this day, although the onset of the North Sea has long eroded away all of its surroundings. A small piece of Heligoland's sand dunes remains — the sand isle just across the harbour called Düne (Dune), which today holds Heligoland's airstrip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland

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Now I don't mean to get in on some of this but you know the Mic- Mac have a myth or legend that was past down by oral tradition and it speaks of a time when the Great Ice Boat went on bye and it gives the name of P.E.I of today as well in English it is " When a boat weighs heavy in the water, when seen from far off" but before this it was called "Our Great Boat". What I'm getting at is it sounds of a time of the glaciers and how P.E.I was created in a sense by the glaciers because P.E.I is were they stopped and they started to reseed from there or float on bye like a boat.

I won't bring up here as to where that boat can be seen today, is at not on this one but back on my story.

and if true that goes back a little more than a few thousand years for a story to be passed down does it not.

Yes, I'm sure many ancient cultures, even like our Australian Aboriginals and their stories of the Dreamtime are quite a bit older than 2 or 3 thousand years, from what I know.

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Fosite/Forseti was the God of Heligoland, called Holy Land as well.

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti

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Sorry sweet heart XXX

well, that's OK, but don't let it happen again. :ph34r: lol

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Well, well, well, weren't you on an other thread asking me what I was on, you don't have to take my advice but get off the bottle and get on the herb and maybe you come out of your drunken stupor and your eyes and hears will become wide and you will know.PS Peace be with you.

The main difference between you and me is this: I admit when I post when 'under influence'.

As p***ed as I am at that moment, I do realize that I am.

You never adimitted you were posting when you smoke herbs... but we all know you did.

And even when I am drunk, I am much more reasonable and logic then you will ever be when sober, or clear-minded.

Have you ever posted when sober??

I think not; not many people understand what you are talking about.

Ever.

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Fosite/Forseti was the God of Heligoland, called Holy Land as well.

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti

Ottema translated "Fosetiland/Helgoland" as 'pleasurable land", "Happy Land".

I don't have the link at hand right now, but I do remember what he said about FositeLand.

It must be somewhere in his introduction to the OLB (Oera Linda Book).

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I believe in the culture it would have been in, yes. The Western Europeans, whether they be true Celts or earlier ones who became who we knew as Celts, are renowned for their ancient oral traditions, they can recall these poems for generations. In those days my guess would be they could keep them for even longer.

If it wasn't in the area it is I'd say no, but Celtic bards are legendary for recalling these stories and imo there is no reason not to think they could not have been passed on for hundreds of generations.

Even a telling of a Greek myth has the mention of it...

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

The Celts of the West knew so well, one of the most ancient of Greek myths. It was them who possessed the Phaethon story.

I hope you won't forget that there were no Celts or Germans around at 6145 BC; they were still hanging around near the Black Sea.

All we can think of is that their ancestors (of the German and Celtic tribes) met the people already living in Europe after the last Ice Age, and adopted their myths about a country that got catastrophically flooded.

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Eridanes (Greek 'Hridanos), a mythical river having Electrides (Amber) Islands at its mouth, first named as real by Hesiod, and placed in unknown northernmost Europe, flowing into the Northern Ocean (the Caspian Sea believed to be one of its inlets), supposed to be frozen, too shallow, or glutinous for navigation. Description of the Eridanus as an amber-river may embody memory of an early amber-route from Jutland up the Elbe and Rhine (Rhenus) and down the Rhone (Rhodanus) or across the Alps to north Italy. Greek authors from the time of PHERECYDES (mythologist ca 550 BC; or genealogist 456 BC) agreed to identify 'Hridanos with the Padus (Ligurian Bodincus, Greek 'Hridanos; modern Po) river in Western Europe (although there are no islands at the mouth). From Etruscan times, dikes protected its reclaimed riparian lands. Herodotus 5th c BC, and Strabo 1st c AD (both familiar with the Caspian Sea) doubted its existence. (Padus river is presumably named after Padua).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gGHX3JmmsDYJ:balln.cwahi.net/amuse_amenace/ancient_10.htm+eridanes+hades&cd=2&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl

What islands or island was at the mouth of that Eridanos river?

The mouth of the Eridanos would be the Kattegat.. the Eridanos River being nothing but the Baltic Sea at a very ancient time, and maybe Dogger Island and a couple of other smaller islands located around it that were still above sea level back then were those islands.

But could people have remembered it for thousands of years before puting it on paper or inscribed it in stone??

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I hope you won't forget that there were no Celts or Germans around at 6145 BC; they were still hanging around near the Black Sea.

All we can think of is that their ancestors (of the German and Celtic tribes) met the people already living in Europe after the last Ice Age, and adopted their myths about a country that got catastrophically flooded.

Nor Hebrews/Aramaeans or Old Norse (as in Vikings) from which the words "Nephilim" or "Niflheim" (respectively) could have been in use to describe Doggerland for that matter. Since these groups greatly postdate the final destruction of Doggerland, it's rather meaningless to attempt to assign any kind of connection between the two, IMO.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Yet another summary (and I hope you will belive me that I do not believe everything I found):

-1- Doggerland was a large stretch of land that became inhabited soon after the end of the last ice age, and became a good place for humans to live in, after a couple of thousand years (lets say from 8500 - 6100 BC)

-2- The culture of Doggerland was probably part of the Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BCE–6000) BCE) that existed in Northern Europe (from Britain to the Baltic)

-3- They very probably were seafarers

-4- The language spoken by the ancient Doggerlanders may have been (proto)-Finno-ugric

-5- Doggerland got flooded and whiped from the map by a giant tsunami at around 6100 BC.

-6- Those who survived the deluge (by being at a safe enough distance, or surfing the hell out of there by riding the tsunami, lol) fled to Scotland, England, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

-7- There are scientific clues (linguistic and genetic) that Doggerland was some sort of original homeland to many peoples now living at the borders of the North Sea

-8- It's possible (is it??) that the ancient Picts were the last remnants of the Doggerlanders who had survived the deluge. Maybe a relation with the Fomorians in the oldest Irish legends

-9- No idea at all, but maybe Nehalennia was the name of an ancient seagoddess worshipped long before the existence of Celtic and Germanic tribes at the coasts of the North Sea and maybe they - Celts and Germans - took over the worship (using slightly altered names, like "Elen", "Holle", "Hel", "Hulda" and so on. Maybe these Celtic and Germanic tribes were nothing but the offspring of these Doggerlanders, and maybe a mix of these Doggerlanders with people who came later to north-western Europe

-10- The Germanic name "Hel" or Celtic "Hal" (and lots of similar names) are the names of the old North Sea. There are even pilgrim roads through Germany and the Netherlands that are called "Hellweg", literally, "Road to Hell", Hell being the old name of the North Sea before the Christians stole it.

Over time the name Hell became synonym for everything evil. Maybe "hell" was connected to the original name of Doggerland, in some proto -IE or proto Finno Ugric language.

-11- Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the 'white people' (god knows why, but some geneticists believe this to be true)

-12- The Oera Linda Book, a proven hoax btw, may have used ancient (and unknown Frisian or other) legends as a source

-13- (I almost forgot) Some think that ancient seafarers (from the western Mediterreanean) depicted the remnants of Doggerland in petroglyphs in present Portugal ( Aboboreira/ "How the Sungod reached America") as a dangerous area in the North Sea, an area to avoid.

-14- A guess: are the present Frisians the descendants of those Doggerlanders??? And did their ancestors indeed sail the seas and oceans back then, and did they influence the cultures of the countries they landed upon/in (I dont know the right English word for it)??

-15- If Doggerland was the homeland of white people, and if it is true that they fled it when they saw it being submerged, what did they do?? Flee as far as they could? Tell other people they met on their voyages - being seafarers - about what had happened to them or their kin??

-16- Was Doggerland "Hyperborea"? If the surivors of that deluge fled to everywhere, on ship or on land, crossing Europe, they may have met the ancestors of Homer and told them their story. They had already established the amber routes across Europe...

-17- Are they the ones who started the Megalithic culture across western Europe? And if so, why??

.

Well after hours of rereading and still confused as you it seems, I'll muddy things a bit further perhaps.

The Frisian connection:

The only remaining Frisians are left in Holland. But they must according to general belief have scattered to England at some remote point in time if they are allied or are the descendants of the people from Doggerland.

Time moves forward some 4,000yrs and the Bronze age is in full swing or at least the axes made of bronze are. Enter the Trojans (Wilkens theory) and the war over the distribution of tin. The Trojans could converse with the Achaeans but the Achaeans could not converse with the Trojan allies. Are the Trojans therefore of Frisian decent? Of course this presupposes that you agree with the Troy - England scenario but might be worth some consideration.

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Well after hours of rereading and still confused as you it seems, I'll muddy things a bit further perhaps.

The Frisian connection:

The only remaining Frisians are left in Holland. But they must according to general belief have scattered to England at some remote point in time if they are allied or are the descendants of the people from Doggerland.

Time moves forward some 4,000yrs and the Bronze age is in full swing or at least the axes made of bronze are. Enter the Trojans (Wilkens theory) and the war over the distribution of tin. The Trojans could converse with the Achaeans but the Achaeans could not converse with the Trojan allies. Are the Trojans therefore of Frisian decent? Of course this presupposes that you agree with the Troy - England scenario but might be worth some consideration.

When I mention ancient Frisians, I am talking about the people who might have inhabited Doggerland, and who might have emigrated to southern Norway.

They may have carried a different name, god knows what name.

Frya's people? Ingva'People? Hell's People???

Who cares??

Read the whole fcking thread, and dont post what has been posted many times before.

Do your work: READ.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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When I mention ancient Frisians, I am talking about the people who might have inhabited Doggerland, and who might have emigrated to southern Norway.

They may have carried a different name, god knows what name.

Frya's people? Ingva'People? Hell's People???

Who cares??

Read the whole fcking thread, and dont post what has been posted many times before.

Do your work: READ.

.

I have read the thread.

When I mention ancient Frisians, I am talking about the people who might have inhabited Doggerland, and who might have emigrated to southern Norway.

And so am I except this group of people (Frisian?) go west into what became Britain at the time of the inundation. This as I see it may account for the Trojans since they appear to be a tribe/race apart from the native British people their allies. I was trying to add strength to your argument of the old Frisian sect in Holland tying that with the language difference of the Achaeans and the British natives.

But you have it how you want, it's your thread.

PS: Just checked posts containing Achaean or Trojan and Doggerland is not included in the list.

Edited by Flashbangwollap

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PS: Just checked posts containing Achaean or Trojan and Doggerland is not included in the list.

They are not, and why did you think they were??

Achaean and Trojan things came thousands of years after Doggerland submerged.

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When I mention ancient Frisians, I am talking about the people who might have inhabited Doggerland, and who might have emigrated to southern Norway.

They may have carried a different name, god knows what name.

Frya's people? Ingva'People? Hell's People???

Who cares??

Read the whole fcking thread, and dont post what has been posted many times before.

Do your work: READ.

.

Abe, you ask for people to hopefully join the thread and this is how you answer them...?

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I have read the thread.

When I mention ancient Frisians, I am talking about the people who might have inhabited Doggerland, and who might have emigrated to southern Norway.

And so am I except this group of people (Frisian?) go west into what became Britain at the time of the inundation. This as I see it may account for the Trojans since they appear to be a tribe/race apart from the native British people their allies. I was trying to add strength to your argument of the old Frisian sect in Holland tying that with the language difference of the Achaeans and the British natives.

But you have it how you want, it's your thread.

PS: Just checked posts containing Achaean or Trojan and Doggerland is not included in the list.

Anyway, yes, how are the British Trojans exactly?.....

From Lydia to Rome to England or simply been in England all along?

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Abe, you ask for people to hopefully join the thread and this is how you answer them...?

Yes.

I hate to explain the bloody obvious, you know that.

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Helen of Troy is most likely some sort of Hel incarnation too.

The beginning of the Iliad reminded me of something there too, a reference to Hades.

Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and vultures, for so were the counsels of Jove fulfilled from the day on which the son of Atreus, king of men, and great Achilles, first fell out with one another.

http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.1.i.html

In the OLB it does say how Frya basically disappeared beneath the sea.

Good summary Abe, beginning of post shown below, I'll try and stick to some of these points...

Yet another summary (and I hope you will belive me that I do not believe everything I found)

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