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Doggerland


Sceptical believer

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He was for you, in this thread. And I remember I doubted his theories, based on the criticisms he got from geneticists.

But you defended him, heh.

So now you changed your mind about him.

That's ok. I knew you would, eventually.

And if you want to know what I said about what went before proto-Indo-Europeic, read this thread.

And if you don't want to, Google "Maglemosian" and "Finno"

So what part of "at least in part" did you not understand. All theories change/are modified with the accumulation of newer information/evidence. That's always been true. While some parts of Oppenheimer's theories have been shown to be in error, overall they have not been summarily discarded, as you'd like to believe. And still they have more relevance to human history than the questionable linguistic connections you keep dodging, what with the Nephilim/Niflheim/Proto-Uralic/Proto-Indo-European/post-Doggerland mish-mash which no one has yet substantiated.

I have read this thread and it gets more convoluted with every page.

From my perspective, you and others have taken an interesting subject and attempted to pidgeon-hole an understanding of it that is not in evidence. But it is, after all, your thread. So carry on.

cormac

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1200 years is not nit-picking. Or do you have evidence that Professor Janhunen is wrong? Also, since he suggests a 5000 BC date from Proto-Uralic, (located approximately 1500 miles northeast of Helsinki, Finland) it's even further irrelevant to the discussion of Doggerland, as the language or descendants thereof would make it to the area much, much later than that. So again, any implied linguistic connections between the peoples of Doggerland and those of peoples from thousands of years later is meaningless.

It's not my view, it's Professor Janhunen's. Can you show where/how he is wrong and you are right?

The only thing I've suggested is that you dig DEEPER.

Trying to get you to understand that poorly based linguistic connections is not the way to go.

cormac

Here's the thing cormac, you go on about all this scientifically proven stuff when in fact, it is not at all scientifically proven anything at all.

I read all the stuff, page after page, dna, I can barely follow it but what I can read is, most of this genetics stuff is more INconclusive than you think. Due to travel, migrations, living with other cultures etc etc. None of it is announced as solid proof of anything. It is only the most accepted theory that the Kurgan area is the home of IE, THAT is not rock solid in any way, shape or form, it's only because they find the things that denote that particular culture, whether it be Battle Axe or whatever, to have most archaeological things found there, yes, there's chariots etc, but it is no way THE scientifically proven answer.

None of it is. You can go on all day about this and that being proven but it's not at all, it's mostly the CURRENTLY ACCEPTED THEORY.

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In the Doggerland area they found a reindeer anter spearhead and it's been dated between 4000BP to 10,000BP. I reckon I coulda done a better guess than that....

The time the area was tundra, which could have been as recent as 2000BC, in Doggerland.

The Doggerland research really in it's early stages and most info I've found, Abe, you probably found more, but seems to be repeated stuff by the Doggerland Research crew, the whole area between England and Europe was submerged, the people went somewhere, for all we know, they went due East, to arrive in Central Asia, then from there spread out again, even coming back West again a few thousand years later and also going South into Mesopotamia.

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Here's the thing cormac, you go on about all this scientifically proven stuff when in fact, it is not at all scientifically proven anything at all.

I read all the stuff, page after page, dna, I can barely follow it but what I can read is, most of this genetics stuff is more INconclusive than you think. Due to travel, migrations, living with other cultures etc etc. None of it is announced as solid proof of anything. It is only the most accepted theory that the Kurgan area is the home of IE, THAT is not rock solid in any way, shape or form, it's only because they find the things that denote that particular culture, whether it be Battle Axe or whatever, to have most archaeological things found there, yes, there's chariots etc, but it is no way THE scientifically proven answer.

None of it is. You can go on all day about this and that being proven but it's not at all, it's mostly the CURRENTLY ACCEPTED THEORY.

There's nothing funnier than your weighing in on something you've admitted you can barely follow let alone understand, yet presume to tell others what is the truth. What you have shown however is that archaeogenetics and linguistics both are so far over your head as to be out of reach. Do theories change or become modified, of course they do as I said to Abramelin. Unlike the questionable linguistic and comparative mythological connections that you and a few others like to employ, which are pseudo-science at best and more a matter of your personal opinion than any form of reality. It's also interesting that YOU are the only one using the phrase 'scientifically proven'. I've never said that and neither you nor Abramelin has shown that Professor Janhunen's work in linguistics is in error and that either of you actually know what the truth is.

cormac

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So Proto-Uralic, according to Professor Janhunen, dates to over 1000 years AFTER Doggerland.

cormac

Well, that's only if you assume Doggerland was completely gone by 6000BC.

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Well, that's only if you assume Doggerland was completely gone by 6000BC.

Even if the Dogger Bank, which was the last remaining part of Doggerland to disappear, lasted to c.5000 BC (a possibility) the Proto-Uralic language that Professor Janhunen believes started between the Ob and Yenisei drainage areas in Siberia wouldn't have magically appeared there overnight.

And still, the association with words from other later disparate languages/language groups is rather a moot point.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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I am particularly interested in this "Doggerland": it sunk beneath the waves (and even catastrophically), it was a large area of land, it happened around 8100 BP, and - contrary to what questionmark assumed - it was very probably much more populated than previously thought, and it must have been sort of a post-ice-age paradise (and again, not the barren tundra as was previously thought).

But I keep wondering about the fact that if all the above is true as scientists try to prove, then why are there no surviving myths about this event?

It could be that there are surviving myths about the submergence of Doggerland, but hidden away in cryptic descriptions.

So I'd like to ask people knowledgable about ancient Scandinavian and/or Celtic and/or Germanic mythology if there is indeed a myth/legend that says anything about land submerging beneath the waves.

--

Here's a documentary about the land that was once between England and Europe:

Britain's Drowned World (and why the hell do the Brittish claim this land as theirs??):

-1- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tSnreaCpFho

-2- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=aKlPcxdomr0

-3- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VzIxZMjXe5Q

And from part 4 till till the end they talk about Doggerland, and in one of these parts a scientist even says that the inhabitants - seeing their country sink in the sea - must have wondered what they had done wrong to make the gods drown their land...

-4- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qx9smho3a_E

-5- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=F6MLWBYI8xA

-6- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sxgFx6GoC80

-7- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_iLPcbez5Q0

-8- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bSGqEgyk1_Y

The only thing I know about Celtic legends about sunken land in Northwest Europe are the stories of the country of Lyonese on the coast of Cornwall and the story of the lost city of YS which was swallowed by the sea, but I think Ys was said to be in Gaul (modern day France) and taken place around the 5th century A.D. if my memory serves me correctly. Lyonese was on the oposite side of Britian according to the legends of the coast of Cornwall facing the Atlantic ocean.

Edited by Hyperborianlama
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In those days England was covered in tundra but about 8,500 BC the climate grew much warmer. Forests spread across England. At the same time England was cut off from Europe.

About 7,500 BC a group of humans lived at Star Carr in Yorkshire. They were hunter-gatherers. They hunted deer, wild cattle, pigs and elk. They also ate birds, fish and shellfish. By this time humans had also domesticated dogs. They may also have made boats.

STONE AGE FARMERS

Then about 4,500 BC farming was introduced into England. Using stone axes the farmers began clearing the forests that covered England. They grew crops of wheat and barley and they raised herds of cattle, pigs and sheep. However as well as farming they also hunted animals such as deer, horse, and wild boar and smaller animals such as beavers, badgers and hares. They also gathered fruit and nuts.

At the same time the early farmers mined flint for making tools. They dug shafts, some of them 15 metres (50 feet) deep. They used deer antlers as picks and oxen shoulder blades as shovels. They also made pottery vessels but they still wore clothes made from skins. They erected simple wooden huts to live in.

Moreover the early farmers made elaborate tombs for their dead. They dug burial chambers then lined them with wood or stone. Over them they created mounds of earth called barrows. Although were stone was easily available they made mounds of stones called cairns. Some of these barrows still survive.

From about 2,500 BC England the Neolithic (new stone age) farmers made circular monuments called henges. At first they were simple ditches with stones or wooden poles erected in them. The most famous henge is, of course, Stonehenge. It began as a simple ditch with an internal bank of earth. Outside the entrance stood the Heel Stone. The famous circles of stones were erected hundreds of years later. Stonehenge was altered and added to over a thousand year period from 2250 BC to 1250 BC before it was finished.

After 2,500 BC a new culture had spread across England. The inhabitants are known as the Beaker People because of the pottery beakers they made. They were bell shaped and were often decorated with bone or cords. However it is not known if the Beaker People were a new race who migrated to England from Europe or if the people of England simply adopted a new culture.

7,500BC they domesticate dogs and may have made boats.

4,500BC farming starts in England using stone axes and made elaborate tombs for their dead.

Then they don't know if the Beaker culture was a migration in or the native people took on a new culture.

Historical craniometric studies found that the Beaker people appeared to be of a different physical type than those earlier populations in the same geographic areas. They were described as tall, heavy boned and brachycephalic.

They know the Beaker people were tall.

Beakers arrived in Britain around 2500BC, declined in use around 2200-2100BC with the emergence of food vessels and cinerary urns and finally fell out of use around 1700BC (Needham 1996). The earliest British beakers were similar to those from the Rhine (Needham 2005),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

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I just watched all those You Tube videos that Abe linked. From Part 1 through to 8 I watched, great stuff!

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I just watched all those You Tube videos that Abe linked. From Part 1 through to 8 I watched, great stuff!

Running commentary please. Just kidding.

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Running commentary please. Just kidding.

Here's the links if you wanted to watch them, they are worth your while and Tony Robinson is always good value. Each one is only about 10 minutes long.

-1- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tSnreaCpFho

-2- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=aKlPcxdomr0

-3- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VzIxZMjXe5Q

-4- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qx9smho3a_E

-5- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=F6MLWBYI8xA

-6- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sxgFx6GoC80

-7- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_iLPcbez5Q0

-8- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bSGqEgyk1_Y

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That will cost me £4 to £6 to see them. I'll pass for the moment.

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The links don't work for me :(

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I posted Baldrik's links about Doggerland long ago.

Alas, some prick took them off the internet.

God knows why, but YouTube must be close to God, and think it can rule this rock.

I am not one of those Yehova/Allah/God people, so I will find these videos again.

No goddamn religious prick will hinder me in my investigations.

We have had that time for 2000 years, and NO more of it.

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Heh, I found these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6_toF5aFqw

And click a couple of times on the video you watch here, and then you will see the rest of the documentary in parts (7 parts that is).

.

Marvellous: Blocked on copy-write grounds. Only in England aye? Cheapskate bunch of %$"!%&(&^^^&*&$£"!

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I posted Baldrik's links about Doggerland long ago.

Alas, some prick took them off the internet.

God knows why, but YouTube must be close to God, and think it can rule this rock.

I am not one of those Yehova/Allah/God people, so I will find these videos again.

No goddamn religious prick will hinder me in my investigations.

We have had that time for 2000 years, and NO more of it.

They all worked for me. When I clicked one, then the You Tube had the next part advertised anyway to click, I watched all 8 of them, dunno why they are not working now..

Sorry if I repeat anything mate, a bit new to me so I'm lagging in the info dept. bear with me...

No goddamn religious prick will hinder me in my investigations.

We have had that time for 2000 years, and NO more of it.

You go get 'em Abe. :ph34r:

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Marvellous: Blocked on copy-write grounds. Only in England aye? Cheapskate bunch of %$"!%&(&^^^&*&$£"!

Ah ha, that explains it then I guess. You tell 'em Jesse. <_<

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I think I'll share a tidbit of irony happening right now. I'm reading this thread and a song came across my station.

Defend atlantis by the flobots.

Lol not a great song but it had funny timing today!

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Nothing is sacred on the internet.

Here's a post that I found from Abe, from another forum and a few years back but think it's still relevant to this topic, so Abe, obviously this is old ground you have covered but this post of yours I found most illuminating because it connects it all up together. I'd thought about this just previously here how the symbolism of Nahallenia were Hades attributes, then this can carry on to the King Arthur buried at Avalon, the apple isle. The Highway to Hell.

I have been thinking about your 'Niflheim', A.R.

Avolon = Place of apples. Apple = afal, affal, aval, apfel and so on

Mist = nebel, nefel, nevel in Celtic/Germanic

Now this.

Right after the end (and during) the last the last ice age, Doggerland stretched from Scotland to Norway (but between Norway and Doggerland would have been a waterway following the coast of Norway as it still looks at present).

Then, in a couple of thousand years, the temperatures rose, sea levels rose, and the climate in Doggerland changed form a barren frozen tundra to a forested land with meadows, rivers and lakes: a post Ice Age paradise.

But the water level kept rising, and at some point Doggerland would have become an archipelago, with the Doggers Bank as it's main island (back then the size of Wales or even Ireland). The Channel had been formed, and the cold waters of the melting ice sheets of the north would have met the warmer Gulf Stream in the south. And where did they meet? Around Doggerland (or the main island of Doggerland: Doggers Bank).

And what would have happend where these waters met... the island at the meeting point of these cold and warm waters would have been cloaked in a thick fog. Well, that is my fantasy, lol.

The island would have been called Island of Mists/Fog, the Place of Mists/Fog, or something. Niflheim. Avalon.

And the apple thing was nothing but a faulty translation of nebel, nefel, nevel, to afal, affal, apfel. From mist/fog to apple, from Land of Mists to Land of Apples.... from Niflheim to Avalon.

But that would imply that the original name of the island was in some kind of proto_IE language, related to the present Germanic and Celtic languages. Not proto-Finno Ugric... Or those proto IE langauges were descendants of the proto Finno Ugric language, after being mixed with the language of the peoples that come thousands of years later - from the Danube region - to the borders of the present North Sea.

Time to open the bottle.

EDIT:

My head is getting clouded, and I am watching "Anaconda" on a Dutch commercial tv channel. Someone in that movie mentioned 'mists', and then something popped up in my mind... "The Mists of Avalon", a book written by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I never read that book, or any of her other books, but it sure did make me think... did she know??

Apparently apples in Nordic myth were symbols of immortality. The Nerthus connection, in the sacred cart was interesting too.

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I love the idea but Doggerland is estimated to have dissappeared so long ago. Maybe they are wrong and it was partially above water until 2000bce. There is so much myth and mystery that fits together that I want to believe it yet the length of time makes me doubtful. Thanks for digging that one out for us Puzz, Abe is a wise skeptic and for it to resonate with him does lend it credibility in my eyes. Seriously. LOL

I guess I am interested because I like the idea of ancient lake dwellers who dabbled in magick and contributed to the Cletic culture. Many thousands of years and square miles makes so much possible. A consistent culture lasting for millenia is in Europe is not evidenced as such by archeology but a sustainable culture utilizing the vast forests and other resources like amber could make for a rich culture. Linking this with the legends of the Fey is where it gets really interesting.

Perhaps the only glint of evidence is in the megalithic cultures of Europe and the idea of ancient geomancy. Bit too fringe maybe and observatories and alignments is a better notion but there is no reason why the two explanations are not compatible.

The megalithic culture is so widespread that we should think in terms of migrations as being cyclic. Like birds attempts were made to move south in winter but in summer they would explore north. It makes sense that some would stay in places out of season when populations grew. I also like the idea of PIE deriving from proto-finno-ugric or there being some archaic connection at least.

Apples, immortality and mist. Stone circles in Golan heights and Avebury. I've been holding onto this link because it is like the ultimate speculation. Stonehenge is a particle accelerator. The author may have used liscence at times but it is an intriguing thought isn't it?

http://www.west.net/~simon/STONECIRCLESCRYSTALGRIDSandPARTICLEACCELERATORS--thePHYSICSOFPI.html

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Nothing is sacred on the internet.

Here's a post that I found from Abe, from another forum and a few years back but think it's still relevant to this topic, so Abe, obviously this is old ground you have covered but this post of yours I found most illuminating because it connects it all up together. I'd thought about this just previously here how the symbolism of Nahallenia were Hades attributes, then this can carry on to the King Arthur buried at Avalon, the apple isle. The Highway to Hell.

I have been thinking about your 'Niflheim', A.R.

Avolon = Place of apples. Apple = afal, affal, aval, apfel and so on

Mist = nebel, nefel, nevel in Celtic/Germanic

Now this.

Right after the end (and during) the last the last ice age, Doggerland stretched from Scotland to Norway (but between Norway and Doggerland would have been a waterway following the coast of Norway as it still looks at present).

Then, in a couple of thousand years, the temperatures rose, sea levels rose, and the climate in Doggerland changed form a barren frozen tundra to a forested land with meadows, rivers and lakes: a post Ice Age paradise.

But the water level kept rising, and at some point Doggerland would have become an archipelago, with the Doggers Bank as it's main island (back then the size of Wales or even Ireland). The Channel had been formed, and the cold waters of the melting ice sheets of the north would have met the warmer Gulf Stream in the south. And where did they meet? Around Doggerland (or the main island of Doggerland: Doggers Bank).

And what would have happend where these waters met... the island at the meeting point of these cold and warm waters would have been cloaked in a thick fog. Well, that is my fantasy, lol.

The island would have been called Island of Mists/Fog, the Place of Mists/Fog, or something. Niflheim. Avalon.

And the apple thing was nothing but a faulty translation of nebel, nefel, nevel, to afal, affal, apfel. From mist/fog to apple, from Land of Mists to Land of Apples.... from Niflheim to Avalon.

But that would imply that the original name of the island was in some kind of proto_IE language, related to the present Germanic and Celtic languages. Not proto-Finno Ugric... Or those proto IE langauges were descendants of the proto Finno Ugric language, after being mixed with the language of the peoples that come thousands of years later - from the Danube region - to the borders of the present North Sea.

Time to open the bottle.

EDIT:

My head is getting clouded, and I am watching "Anaconda" on a Dutch commercial tv channel. Someone in that movie mentioned 'mists', and then something popped up in my mind... "The Mists of Avalon", a book written by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I never read that book, or any of her other books, but it sure did make me think... did she know??

Apparently apples in Nordic myth were symbols of immortality. The Nerthus connection, in the sacred cart was interesting too.

Heh, you copied that from my own board.

That "A.R." was an interesting woman from Finland. She was much into shamanism and her ancient ancestors... but sometimes floating out into space...

But I guess I finally 'managed' to chase her off with my heavy-handed behaviour.

..sigh....

I am glad you don't get 'chased off' that easily, Puzz.

I am not that bad, I just have a big mouth.

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So what part of "at least in part" did you not understand. All theories change/are modified with the accumulation of newer information/evidence. That's always been true. While some parts of Oppenheimer's theories have been shown to be in error, overall they have not been summarily discarded, as you'd like to believe. And still they have more relevance to human history than the questionable linguistic connections you keep dodging, what with the Nephilim/Niflheim/Proto-Uralic/Proto-Indo-European/post-Doggerland mish-mash which no one has yet substantiated.

I have read this thread and it gets more convoluted with every page.

From my perspective, you and others have taken an interesting subject and attempted to pidgeon-hole an understanding of it that is not in evidence. But it is, after all, your thread. So carry on.

cormac

Cormac, what I said about the 'Nephilim/Nef Hille' was just in jest. There is no Nef Hille in the OLB, I just used the OLB way of twisting and distorting ancient names of gods, and have some fun with it.

About genetics: I know it's what we call an 'exact science', but it's conclusions based on new facts change so rapidly that we just have to wait for a century for any definative conclusions about human migrations.

"Mish-mash"....

What I am doing in this thead is what is known as 'brainstorming', anyone just blurts out what comes up in her/his mind.

I never said that what I posted was the truth, I just tried out options based on what science and history had to offer.

Can we agree to disagree?

++++

EDITED to add:

The Maglamosian culture spread from England, across Doggerland, to north-western Russia.

After the end of the last Ice Age there were many large ice lakes bordering the retreating ice sheats.

People from England could have been in contact with people from Russia by means of travelling with boats and/or canoes.

And a lot easier than travelling by land.

So this is what I think: that culture *AND* its language spread along that area. But at some point in time, the people at the east developed their own language, the language we now know to be proto-Uralic, or proto-Finno-Ugric.

But remnants of that language got preseverved in the language of the people that entered the western-Euopean area, the pre-Indo-Europeans that invaded Europe long after the end of the last ice age.

Yep, I know, my theory about the name of the Dutch goddess, "Nehallennia", may be off, but it was my assumption that this name got preserved as "Hell"/"Halja"/"Hulle"/"Holle" as the name the Frisians gave to the North Sea. And the Scandinavians had a goddess called "Hell" who ruled about an underworld covered by mists.... an island protected by walls and with a well that was the origin of a lot of rivers... like Doggerland.

Originally 'Nehallennia" may have been an erratic Roman translation/interpretation of "maalähelläjään", or something similar, the 'Land near Ice".

I know you don't like what I am doing here, but I have told you many times I am not convinced about what I suggested.

I am just trying out things, hoping someone gets a sparkling brainwave, and tells us about something not one of us thought of before.

This is the thread to show you have imagination combined with science.

I am not waiting for some 'channeler' to post bs based on his/her dreams, ok?

Cormac, I do aprreciate your critical view, really.

But I also hope you are able to appreciate me giving options.

Even though these options are not proven facts.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Cormac, what I said about the 'Nephilim/Nef Hille' was just in jest.

Perhaps, but even if you didn't start the fire (figuratively speaking) for this particular line of pseudo-scientific/linguistic claptrap, you did in the least provide the kindling. Of this much you should already be aware.

About genetics: I know it's what we call an 'exact science', but it's conclusions based on new facts change so rapidly that we just have to wait for a century for any definative conclusions about human migrations.

It's not going to take a century, IMO, as the basics of archaeogenetics have been laid. The fine tuning, based on newer and better information, will obviously make corrections where necessary, but all in all people WILL NOT change DNA haplogroups willy-nilly every time they migrate (particularly within very short human/genetic periods of time) as some are wont to believe. Nor can the genetics of any given peoples from any given time period be dismissed outright for no other reason than the researcher doesn't understand the genetics involved and wishes to make connections where none are in evidence. And we both know there are some who attempt to do exactly that.

Without a baseline of factual information to start with, your idea of 'brainstorming' isn't any better that idle speculation, IMO. Case in point: If you had originally determined (given the available information from linguistic experts) when and where proto-Uralic or even proto-Indo-European had started, compared them with the timeframe of Doggerland AND THEN speculated on the possibility of what language/language group and when those people may have used either then you'd have been on a more solid footing. As it stands, you heard Finno-Ugric and took off with it before even knowing that it's origins are likely to be not only outside of the chronological date for Doggerlands demise, but also well outside it's geographical relevance. That's what I meant in an earlier post when I talked about 'digging deeper'.

This is the thread to show you have imagination combined with science.

From my perspective (generally speaking), when imagination runs counter to the available facts with nothing else to support it, then it's of little use and should not be presented as a valid argument.

cormac

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