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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

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ChrLzs
3 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

QGIS is free.  Just saying.

So ..... are you offering your services to professionally drive it, if we can run down a decent dataset?

 

As for me ... I know when I'm getting out of my depth... :P

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Abramelin

Ok @ChrLzs

I think I get it.

But Cormac posted a PNG image, part of a much larger PNG image that I posted in a former post.

Does that make any difference?

Take your time. This thread already lasted for a decade. A few days extra won't hurt anyone one bit.

 

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)

The only real solution to this problem/question is for someone in the region to rent a ship with sidescan and multibeam sonar and with a diving drone with cameras. Until then it will remain a mystery

https://www.nioz.nl/national-marine-facilities/research-vessels

Is anyone going to do that? Probably not. The next best idea is to convince someone who can do that. Convince them to develop an interest in that point and to include looking at in some future large scale investigation/research.

 

Edited by Hanslune
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ChrLzs
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Have a good life. said:

Ok @ChrLzs

I think I get it.

Excellent..!

Quote

But Cormac posted a PNG image, part of a much larger PNG image that I posted in a former post.  Does that make any difference?

Yes, but with two HUGE provisos.

1. IF we can trace the history of the file right back to the uncompressed source data.  The problem is that anyone can grab an image of any quality and then make changes to it (enhance, enlarge, adjust contrast..) add then resave the now compromised file as a PNG, TIF, JPEG or whatever.  There is simply no substitute for going back to the original data files and then monitoring every step in the image's history to ensure nothing compromises it.

2. IF we can guarantee that the image has not been enlarged and or enhanced in any way and resaved...  As soon as you see those little solid squares... it's been overenlarged.  And most enlarging algorithms are NON-linear, and thus they add false details.

Essentially it is incredibly easy to contaminate the original data, and once that happens, all added analysis is invalid.

Quote

Take your time. This thread already lasted for a decade. A few days extra won't hurt anyone one bit.

I acknowledge I've come in late, and I'm playing a bit of catchup...  but it shouldn't be too onerous to go right back and get the original file - I no longer work at a research institute so I don't have easy access, but any currently working oceanographer or marine scientist could sign up at the site mentioned earlier and simply ask for the available bathymetry data.  Like most research data archivists, they will happily help you get the original source data IF you can show you have a genuine interest.  I tested that myself and went through the motions but before they would send the data they wanted to know who I worked for and what I was doing.  As they've spent a lot of money to gather and store this data, it's only fair that they don't waste time with every tom, jane or harriet who has seen "something odd"...  Plus there may be opportunities for collaboration, and these folks will be delighted to get involved with worthwhile projects.

 

To me, the shape looks like a natural formation that has been 'straightened' by compression, over-enlarging and invalid enhancements - or it could also be an area where they were calibrating the sonar equipment or whatever they used to get the soundings.

If someone can supply the provenanced source data, I'd be happy to help further with the process, but at this point I think it's a bit of a dead end.

Edited by ChrLzs
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Abramelin

I have asked those in the know, but never got an answer. Or maybe: not yet.

If whatever it is, is just the result of over-enthousiastically playing with pixels and so on by some 'tom, jane or harriet' searching for something odd, then why does it show up in papers?

For instance this one:

LINK

Or a direct link to the image in the paper:

LINK

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Abramelin

A screenshot from the image I linked to in my former post (for those who suffer from 'link phobia') :

 

And notice the 'bulge' drawn around it. It's part of the Danish Economic Zone or something, and it incorporates the Kraka Field, an oil/gas field located in the Salt Dome Province.

 

20210724_205913.jpg

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Abramelin
On 7/23/2021 at 3:06 AM, Golden Duck said:

QGIS is free.  Just saying.

Apparently you are familiar with it.

And?

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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Apparently you are familiar with it.

And?

If you want to clean up GIS images use a GIS system.

I tried to trace conversation backwards but couldn't find what the images represent. If it is raster data there might free data sources.

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Abramelin

Well, thanks.

Sort of.

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Abramelin

The fact that this formation is bordering, or on top of an amphidromic point, and is sharing the same squarish space with a seasonal temperature anomaly doesn't give anyone second thoughts. The fact that this 'thing' shows up on every bathymetric map of the North Sea, even the latest ones, doesn't ...

I give up.

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ChrLzs
22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I have asked those in the know, but never got an answer. Or maybe: not yet.

That's a little unusual, but do read on.  Usually, researchers will be delighted to get enquiries about their work, even if a bit offtopic.  But....

Quote

If whatever it is, is just the result of over-enthousiastically playing with pixels and so on by some 'tom, jane or harriet' searching for something odd, then why does it show up in papers?

That would be because the image is NOT being used for any in depth high resolution analysis and/or the 'feature' isn't particularly notable or relevant - in this case, I wouldn't have looked twice at that area.

Quote

For instance this one:

LINK

Or a direct link to the image in the paper:

LINK

I have a question for you.  How do you explain that the shape shown in that image is different (not as squared off) to your earlier, 'enhanced' version?

To me, that little patch of pixels looks uninteresting and insignificant, I'm sorry.  Look around the image ... EVERYWHERE it shows those squared off edges, perfectly aligned vertically and horizontally - it's jpeg compression effects, as I explained earlier.  Are you honestly not seeing all the other squared off 'anomalies'?

 

There's just nothing there worthy of further time.  I know that's not the answer you want, but there it is. 

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Abramelin

I do see those squared off patches everywhere.

And yes, I do see that that latest image I posted shows a somewhat different then squarish formation, agreed.

Well, yeah, that is not the answer I had hoped for of course, lol!

All that I can do now is find me a bathymetric map with the original uncompressed data. As though I haven't tried that for months already...

But thanks for the effort, Chrlzs!

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Abramelin
Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2021 at 10:37 PM, Hanslune said:

The only real solution to this problem/question is for someone in the region to rent a ship with sidescan and multibeam sonar and with a diving drone with cameras. Until then it will remain a mystery

https://www.nioz.nl/national-marine-facilities/research-vessels

Is anyone going to do that? Probably not. The next best idea is to convince someone who can do that. Convince them to develop an interest in that point and to include looking at in some future large scale investigation/research.

 

I think I am going to contact professor Vincent Gaffney, the one who kindled my interest in Doggerland.

I found his email address just now.

Any ideas what to tell and ask him?

And what NOT to tell him?

Edited to add:

I actually found out that the same formation shows up on a recent paper where the writer tells us they base the image on quite recent data. But instead of going on about it for again pages on end, I thought I'd better ask a professor who may have easy access to the right contacts, has authority and enough influence to get the desired information.

Maybe best for those who dó have ideas about what to tell him is to send me a pm.

 

 

Edited by Abramelin
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ChrLzs
3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Any ideas what to tell and ask him?

And what NOT to tell him?

Just be brief, and summarise what he needs to know to answer - preferably use numbered questions.  And tell the truth without speculation.

Something like this.

Quote

 

Hi.  I'm currently doing a bit of amateur research on the Dogger Bank region.  I'm fascinated by its history, going right back to ..... 

I have found it rather difficult to get hold of good (ie high resolution) bathymetry data.  What I can find seems to be low resolution and suffers from what appear to be processing artefacts, an example being the squarish region at Lat .. Lon .., as shown on this map (include an annotated image and the link to its source).

I was hoping you might be able to help with:

1. A source for better bathymetry, if it exists

2. Any information or additional sources you may have, especially about the region shown..

Any assistance you might be able to provide would be greatly appreciated.

As you can see I haven't speculated, just asked, and made it simple for him to respond.  If you want to refer to the potential temperature link do so, but I wouldn't ^_^.

Don't waffle on or complicate it too much, just start a friendly and simple dialogue.

 

Good luck with your search.

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ChrLzs
9 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

Good luck with your search.

BTW, if you do run into issues with getting access to data, a couple of tips..

Go to your local library and use their computers - libraries often have multiple subscriptions to most research archives.. (here in Oz they do, anyways).

Go to your nearest University and ask them really really nicely...

If all else fails, drop names, eg tell them you have been speaking to Vincent, and he was very supportive .... :D 

Or just pay the money....

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ChrLzs

One last thing (sorry, I'll shut up after this.. :D )..

If you do get hold of a data file, it may not be obvious how to use whatever format it is in - that's where you might need some help, or you may indeed have to install a GIS (Geographic Information System) program in order to use/view the data.

I'm a bit rusty on the topic - the last time I used GIS was back before the turn of the millenium.. :unsure:  but feel free to ask for help - sounds like the Duck may know stuff on this topic also.

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badeskov
8 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

One last thing (sorry, I'll shut up after this.. :D )..

If you do get hold of a data file, it may not be obvious how to use whatever format it is in - that's where you might need some help, or you may indeed have to install a GIS (Geographic Information System) program in order to use/view the data.

I'm a bit rusty on the topic - the last time I used GIS was back before the turn of the millenium.. :unsure:  but feel free to ask for help - sounds like the Duck may know stuff on this topic also.

Oh ChrLzs, can you please stop being so methodical? ;-)

 

cheers!

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badeskov
20 minutes ago, badeskov said:

Oh ChrLzs, can you please stop being so methodical? ;-)

 

cheers!

Oh, by the way, pardon my science background. 

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Golden Duck
31 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

One last thing (sorry, I'll shut up after this.. :D )..

If you do get hold of a data file, it may not be obvious how to use whatever format it is in - that's where you might need some help, or you may indeed have to install a GIS (Geographic Information System) program in order to use/view the data.

I'm a bit rusty on the topic - the last time I used GIS was back before the turn of the millenium.. :unsure:  but feel free to ask for help - sounds like the Duck may know stuff on this topic also.

I used QGIS for study.  I haven't used it in a few years.  There's quite a community around the system.  Amongst the training resources you can find case studies for it's use.

The following search gave me a few hits for data sets with some in the public domain.

https://www.google.com/search?q=QGIS+OCEAN+FLOOR&rlz=1C1SQJL_enAU962AU962&oq=QGIS+OCEAN+FLOOR&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i10i22i30.5270j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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ChrLzs

For some slightly better resolution, I found this:

http://www.doggerbank.nl/bathymetry-doggerbank-chart.jpg

 

and in this video...  this is a cropped, unresized freeze frame:
1678917177_000-Doggerbank_video.jpg.5b4cd8a4508032a787019bab0728d21f.jpg

 

I haven't gone back to track down the data from which these came, but I think they show significantly less squarey-ness.  (That's a scientific term - Badeskov will back me up there....)

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Abramelin
4 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

For some slightly better resolution, I found this:

http://www.doggerbank.nl/bathymetry-doggerbank-chart.jpg

 

That is, I think, the first chart I uses in this thread!

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Trelane

I've been lurking, taking in all the information over several pages. I personally don't think there's anything to it. It stands to reason if there were, there would be more information/interest in it.

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Abramelin
18 hours ago, Trelane said:

I've been lurking, taking in all the information over several pages. I personally don't think there's anything to it. It stands to reason if there were, there would be more information/interest in it.

Maybe there ìs more interest in it, but no desire to make whatever they found public, not yet.

The mound covering Göbekli Tepe didn't look interesting for a long time. But some found it intesting enough to start digging anyway.

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Abramelin
Posted (edited)

I haven't written the letter to Gaffney yet; I've planned to do that the coming weekend.

------

And this is what I found :

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2019.00234/full

Quote:

Left High and Dry: Deglaciation of Dogger Bank, North Sea, Recorded in Proglacial Lake Evolution

 

In this study, we deduce the behavior of the ice sheet through investigation of an integrated, high resolution dataset from Dogger Bank, North Sea. Our aim is to describe the role of ice streaming and subglacial conditions on the advance, maximum extent and retreat of the ice sheet during MIS 2.

(...)

Dogger Bank is a large (approximately 15,000 km2), flat-topped bank of sediment in the southern North Sea (Figure 1) that forms a present-day bathymetric high, between 18 and 63 m below mean sea level (MSL). Recent acquisition of high-resolution seismic reflection data and geotechnical boreholes up to 50 m deep collected in support of windfarm site investigations have revealed the stratigraphic complexity of the Dogger Bank (Cotterill et al., 2017a, b; Phillips et al., 2018; Emery et al., 2019).

Figure 1:

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/476415/feart-07-00234-HTML/image_m/feart-07-00234-g001.jpg

Figure 9:

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/476415/feart-07-00234-HTML/image_m/feart-07-00234-g009.jpg

And last but not least:

Data Availability

The datasets generated for this study will not be made publicly available because they belong to a confidential industry dataset. Requests to access the datasets should be directed to the corresponding author.

 

Edited by Abramelin
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Trelane
1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe there ìs more interest in it, but no desire to make whatever they found public, not yet.

The mound covering Göbekli Tepe didn't look interesting for a long time. But some found it intesting enough to start digging anyway.

Fair enough. Yet, there was interest in GT. Whereas there's been none in this "formation" you are discussing.

Again, surely it stands to reason there would have been something published somewhere by now talking about it.

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