Doggerland

[Swede]

22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I think it's an underestimation of the true number of people living in Doggerland.

From what I learned, the avarage temperature was a few degrees Celsius higher than at present.

The land was lush, with many lakes and rivers.

Lots of game and fish, and lots of trees and shrubs and herbs carrying nuts and berries and eatable leaves and roots.

I also suggested that many people fled the Laacher See volcanic explosion, and ended up in Doggerland. From the pictures I posted of the fall-out, many would have chosen the north-west route which would bring them into Doggerland.

I also learned, throughout all these years, that this area was the most hospitable area of ancient Europe.

 

Cormac was referring to a specific time period, ~8200 BP. See Walker et al 2020, Figure 2. Tens of thousands?

Edit: Clarification.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Swede

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, Swede said:

Cormac was referring to a specific time period, ~8200 BP. See Walker et al 2020, Figure 2. Tens of thousands?

Edit: Clarification.

It were the words of Vincent Gaffney, the one who co-wrote the paper Cormac quoted from.

[Abramelin]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:20 PM, Abramelin said:

Something I posted about years ago is, that bathymetric maps of the present North Sea will not really represent the land surface of Doggerland.

Not only the Storegga Slide will have reshaped its surface, but also the later sea currents.

And again about the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide: according to a paper I posted somewhere in the beginning of this thread (paper by some Norwegian oil company) the tsunami lasted from several hours to a couple of DAYS.

Now imagine what that gigantic moving mass of water would do with the topsoil. Ànd with the dating of the last of Doggerland...

Edited to add:

https://www.infocuriosity.com/10-main-causes-of-soil-erosion/

10 Main Causes Of Soil Erosion

8. Harsh climatic conditions

During extreme climatic situations like drought, tsunami, and many other conditions, massive erosion occurs. In times of drought, for example, the vegetative cover of the soil withers away and the land is left uncovered. In the course of this period also, a fast-moving wind is usually experienced. The wind carries away the fine topsoil. In acute cases like the tsunami, a large mass of soil is carried and deposited in the lowlands.

@Swede

The bolded part of the post I quoted ìs the question.

The topsoil would have been removed to a great depth, and certainly if the tsunami lasted for a couple of days.

What kind of effect would that have on the carbon dating of the demise of Doggerland?

After the tsumami retreated, a much older layer of the surface would have been left.

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

@Swede

The bolded part of the post I quoted ìs the question.

The topsoil would have been removed to a great depth, and certainly if the tsunami lasted for a couple of days.

What kind of effect would that have on the carbon dating of the demise of Doggerland?

After the tsumami retreated, a much older layer of the surface would have been left.

I’m going to chime in long enough to say NOT ALL of the topsoil would be obliterated, especially over so vast an area, nor to the same extent, most of which was not consistently ASL to begin with, IMO. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

I’m going to chime in long enough to say NOT ALL of the topsoil would be obliterated, especially over so vast an area, nor to the same extent, most of which was not consistently ASL to begin with, IMO. 
 

cormac

Most if not all of the carbon dating was done on the Dogger Bank, the area which must have had to bear the full brunt of this gigantic moving mass of water.

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Most if not all of the carbon dating was done on the Dogger Bank, the area which must have had to bear the full brunt of this gigantic moving mass of water.

Bore hole analysis over the entirety of Doggerland would likely tell a lot more than just concentrating on the Dogger Bank. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

Bore hole analysis over the entirety of Doggerland would likely tell a lot more than just concentrating on the Dogger Bank. 
 

cormac

As far as I know, carbon dating was only done on the Dogger Bank.

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, Abramelin said:

As far as I know, carbon dating was only done on the Dogger Bank.

I don’t doubt it. It’s not likely to answer much though unless the testing is more comprehensive. One might as well be basing a situation in London on what’s happening in Glasgow. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

I don’t doubt it. It’s not likely to answer much though unless the testing is more comprehensive. One might as well be basing a situation in London on what’s happening in Glasgow. 
 

cormac

My point: if the demise of Doggerland was based on carbon dating the samples taken from the Dogger Bank, then that dating could well be ages off.

[cormac mac airt]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

My point: if the demise of Doggerland was based on carbon dating the samples taken from the Dogger Bank, then that dating could well be ages off.

But are you sure they WERE ONLY taken from Dogger Bank? I think it would be irresponsible if they were. 
 

cormac

[Kenemet]

52 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

@Swede

The bolded part of the post I quoted ìs the question.

The topsoil would have been removed to a great depth, and certainly if the tsunami lasted for a couple of days.

What kind of effect would that have on the carbon dating of the demise of Doggerland?

After the tsumami retreated, a much older layer of the surface would have been left.

Tsunamis don't remove that much topsoil unless the land happened to be denuded for some reason.

If it somehow scraped the land (unlikely) down to a rock layer, then it doesn't affect carbon dating at all because you can't carbon date rock.

But what about replaced topsoil?  Well, the replaced topsoil would have organic material from the time that the land was inundated (dead plants, bodies of people and animals, other decayed material) and the dates would show to the time that everything died there (plus or minus whatever the parameters are.)

Okay, but what if it only eroded away the most recent topsoil?  Well, that has to go somewhere and it's unlikely that a tsunami (which is basically a strong local flood) would remove just one layer that related to one or two particular time periods.  Tsunamis aren't bulldozers, so they don't do a tidy and even scrape of everything.  You'd have a lot of remaining material from the event timeline.

[flying squid]

Is this someone fantasizing the Doggerland flag, or what?

[The Puzzler]

Relative to the idea that Doggerland was connected through lines, the avenues, from Stonehenge to Doggerbank or Dogger Island, this might be of interest….but it’s prob been posted already…

https://members.ancient-origins.net/articles/st-michael’s-ley-line-leading-legendary-doggerland

Edited February 21, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Relative to the idea that Doggerland was connected through lines, the avenues, from Stonehenge to Doggerbank or Dogger Island, this might be of interest….but it’s prob been posted already…

https://members.ancient-origins.net/articles/st-michael’s-ley-line-leading-legendary-doggerland

No, I posted about the Great Ridgeway ending up close to the Cross Sands Anomaly.

Ley lines are nonsense.

You can draw a million lines through England using historical sites.

[Swede]

23 hours ago, Abramelin said:

It were the words of Vincent Gaffney, the one who co-wrote the paper Cormac quoted from.

But what time period was Gaffney referring to? Citation? However, even if referring to the largest extent of Doggerland, the figure seems to be exaggerated. Have you researched the hypothesized demographics of the earlier period? May have some relevant references.

.

[Swede]

23 hours ago, Abramelin said:

@Swede

The bolded part of the post I quoted ìs the question.

The topsoil would have been removed to a great depth, and certainly if the tsunami lasted for a couple of days.

What kind of effect would that have on the carbon dating of the demise of Doggerland?

After the tsumami retreated, a much older layer of the surface would have been left.

¹⁴C dating is not the only dating method that has been applied. Other methods include OSL dating, stratigraphy, and seismic data.The transported soils associated with the tsunami are identifiable and coring samples can distinguish between the original horizon and tsunami-related depositions. In addition, particularly with AMS radiocarbon dating, organic material in the original horizon(s) and the transported soils can be conducted and compared/contrasted.

.

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, Swede said:

But what time period was Gaffney referring to? Citation? However, even if referring to the largest extent of Doggerland, the figure seems to be exaggerated. Have you researched the hypothesized demographics of the earlier period? May have some relevant references.

.

Gaffney referred to the moment of the Storegga Tsunami.

That happened when there were only islands left of Doggerland, somewhere around 6150 bce.

Well, that's what we're supposed to think.

Demographics? Heh, to know about that, we have to find the remnants of all those who perished.

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, Swede said:

¹⁴C dating is not the only dating method that has been applied. Other methods include OSL dating, stratigraphy, and seismic data.The transported soils associated with the tsunami are identifiable and coring samples can distinguish between the original horizon and tsunami-related depositions. In addition, particularly with AMS radiocarbon dating, organic material in the original horizon(s) and the transported soils can be conducted and compared/contrasted.

.

True. But did they use all these dating technologies, or are you assuming they did?

Edited February 21, 2023 by Abramelin

[Swede]

9 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

True. But did they use all these dating technologies, or are you assuming they did?

Yes. Also, in regards to ¹⁴C dating:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/stepping-stones-to-the-neolithic-radiocarbon-dating-the-early-neolithic-on-islands-within-the-western-seaways-of-britain/0BAA5BF7AC3592D81EC57937E177A9BD

.

[Swede]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Gaffney referred to the moment of the Storegga Tsunami.

That happened when there were only islands left of Doggerland, somewhere around 6150 bce.

Well, that's what we're supposed to think.

Demographics? Heh, to know about that, we have to find the remnants of all those who perished.

Of potential interest:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0037

Edit: Insert correct reference.

.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Swede

[Abramelin]

Sorry @Swede, I am also watching a football match (Liverpool - Real Madrid). So I'm getting a bit distracted.

I'll reply next morning (Dutch time).

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

@Swede

These papers are quite a bit over my head.

But I suggest - and agree -  population on Doggerland was on avarage low, but concentrated at certain spots where many thousands lived in large settlements.

 

[Swede]

On 2/25/2023 at 1:04 PM, Abramelin said:

@Swede

These papers are quite a bit over my head.

But I suggest - and agree -  population on Doggerland was on avarage low, but concentrated at certain spots where many thousands lived in large settlements.

 

To my knowledge, there are no contemporaneous examples on either side of the channel, thus this speculation lacks support. If we accept the reconstructions of Walker et al (2020), we can derive the below approximations. Circa 8200 BP, the remnants of Doggerland consisted of basically an extended littoral and Dogger Island. Plug in the population figure of your choosing and you will find that a population density that incorporated "tens of thousands" is quite inconsistent with the region and relevant time period.. For your consideration:

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Swede said:

To my knowledge, there are no contemporaneous examples on either side of the channel, thus this speculation lacks support. If we accept the reconstructions of Walker et al (2020), we can derive the below approximations. Circa 8200 BP, the remnants of Doggerland consisted of basically an extended littoral and Dogger Island. Plug in the population figure of your choosing and you will find that a population density that incorporated "tens of thousands" is quite inconsistent with the region and relevant time period.. For your consideration:

I think I remember that image represented the situation long after the Storegga Tsunami.

No links to show to prove what I just said. Not yet.

And I do have my doubts about the datings, based on the moorlog, the peat layers formed àfter the tsunami.

[Swede]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I think I remember that image represented the situation long after the Storegga Tsunami.

No links to show to prove what I just said. Not yet.

And I do have my doubts about the datings, based on the moorlog, the peat layers formed àfter the tsunami.

The Storegga event(s) are estimated, based upon ¹⁴C dating, to have occurred between 6225 BC and 6170 BC, ie ~8200 BP.

.