Doggerland

[Piney]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:04 PM, Abramelin said:

@Swede

These papers are quite a bit over my head.

But I suggest - and agree -  population on Doggerland was on avarage low, but concentrated at certain spots where many thousands lived in large settlements.

 

If they were agroforesters, that wouldn't be supportive of their food supply.

They would have winter base camps made up of smaller populations than the procurement camps in order to have enough to survive.

Using scale, the population of the Delaware Valley and Southern New Jersey was about 30  people during the Middle Archaic.

[Abramelin]

Swede, Piney, Cormac and others: you all know I'm a stubborn ass. When I'm convinced something could be true or could really have happened, I won't give up easily.

From about the start of this thread it was suggested that Doggerland must have been a hunter-gatherer paradise. And by that suggesting the population was considerably higher than the surrounding areas.

And then I discovered this "squarish" formation that looked like a strategically located ... whatever. A protected harbour? Some 'sacred' site protected by a low wall made of clay or whatever? A site of 11 by 11 kilometers. If this formation was man-made, many must have participated for maybe several years in building it.

The formation does exist. I only need more detailed scans.

I know, and I said it before: maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

But... maybe not.

And then there is the Cross Sands Anomaly. A large, long barrow like, piece of chalk that must have stood out from its surroundings like a pimple on a bare butt.

 

 And... let's not forget about the "White Bank". I almost forgot about that one. It's just a little south of the 'squarish formation'.

There was a "(White) Island of the Dead" in legends on the south coast of the North Sea. And I posted those legends.

That's it for now.

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Swede, Piney, Cormac and others: you all know I'm a stubborn ass. When I'm convinced something could be true or could really have happened, I won't give up easily.

From about the start of this thread it was suggested that Doggerland must have been a hunter-gatherer paradise. And by that suggesting the population was considerably higher than the surrounding areas.

And then I discovered this "squarish" formation that looked like a strategically located ... whatever. A protected harbour? Some 'sacred' site protected by a low wall made of clay or whatever? A site of 11 by 11 kilometers. If this formation was man-made, many must have participated for maybe several years in building it.

The formation does exist. I only need more detailed scans.

I know, and I said it before: maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

But... maybe not.

And then there is the Cross Sands Anomaly. A large, long barrow like, piece of chalk that must have stood out from its surroundings like a pimple on a bare butt.

 

 And... let's not forget about the "White Bank". I almost forgot about that one. It's just a little south of the 'squarish formation'.

There was a "(White) Island of the Dead" in legends on the south coast of the North Sea. And I posted those legends.

That's it for now.

Your squarish formation rather loses its appeal when one realizes that by circa 6200 BC said formation was ALREADY under water.
 

While the white bank is also interesting it’s a bit of a stretch to think that that geological feature specifically is related to stories of the “White Island of the Dead”. 

cormac

[Trelane]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Swede, Piney, Cormac and others: you all know I'm a stubborn ass. When I'm convinced something could be true or could really have happened, I won't give up easily.

From about the start of this thread it was suggested that Doggerland must have been a hunter-gatherer paradise. And by that suggesting the population was considerably higher than the surrounding areas.

And then I discovered this "squarish" formation that looked like a strategically located ... whatever. A protected harbour? Some 'sacred' site protected by a low wall made of clay or whatever? A site of 11 by 11 kilometers. If this formation was man-made, many must have participated for maybe several years in building it.

The formation does exist. I only need more detailed scans.

I know, and I said it before: maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

But... maybe not.

And then there is the Cross Sands Anomaly. A large, long barrow like, piece of chalk that must have stood out from its surroundings like a pimple on a bare butt.

 

 And... let's not forget about the "White Bank". I almost forgot about that one. It's just a little south of the 'squarish formation'.

There was a "(White) Island of the Dead" in legends on the south coast of the North Sea. And I posted those legends.

That's it for now.

Or maybe, just maybe it's nothing. That's also a possibility.

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, Trelane said:

Or maybe, just maybe it's nothing. That's also a possibility.

Of course that's also a possibility.

But marine archaeology is a slow process; you cannot just start digging somewhere where you expect to find something. Also, modern archaeology gets a lot of help from Lidar scans. As far as I know that's not of much use for marine archaeology.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

18 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Your squarish formation rather loses its appeal when one realizes that by circa 6200 BC said formation was ALREADY under water.

So? It would only make it older than 6200 bce. I have often said that it was strategically located on the west bank of the paleo-Elbe. The paleo-Elbe was long gone before 6200 bce.

 

18 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

While the white bank is also interesting it’s a bit of a stretch to think that that geological feature specifically is related to stories of the “White Island of the Dead”. 

The White Bank was probably part of a chalk ridge. It may have stayed far longer above sea level. Sea currents may have finally aten' away the chalk, long after Doggerland, including Dogger Island, was gone.

[Essan]

Star Carr in Yorkshire  gives an indication of the types of settlement - and the lifestyles of those who lived in them - that may well have existed on Doggerland during the Mesolithic.  Our ancestors were much more than mere hunter-gathers even 10,000 year ago.

https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/return-to-star-carr-discovering-the-true-size-of-a-mesolithic-settlement.htm

http://www.starcarr.com/

 

 

[Piney]

7 hours ago, Essan said:

Star Carr in Yorkshire  gives an indication of the types of settlement - and the lifestyles of those who lived in them - that may well have existed on Doggerland during the Mesolithic.  Our ancestors were much more than mere hunter-gathers even 10,000 year ago.

https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/return-to-star-carr-discovering-the-true-size-of-a-mesolithic-settlement.htm

http://www.starcarr.com/

 

 

As I already said. They were agro-foresters who purposely burned and quite possibly seeded groves of food plants, berry bushes and mast trees the way the "tethered nomads" of North America did. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Piney
brain fart

[flashman7870]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

As I already said. They were agro-foresters who purposely burned and quite possibly seeded groves of food plants, berry bushes and mast trees the way the "tethered nomads" of North America did. 

Wrong, actually the Doggerlanders were Calusa-style fisher kings who lived on the bounty of the North Sea and Elbish littoral. They ruled as tyrants over the people of the British would-be Isles. Using sea shells collected over their thousand year reign, they built the Squarish Formation, which would be the largest manmade structure by mass for ~7000 years until the construction of Khufu's pyramid. And they spoke modern Finnish. 

[Piney]

Just now, flashman7870 said:

Wrong, actually the Doggerlanders were Calusa-style fisher kings who lived on the bounty of the North Sea and Elbish littoral. They ruled as tyrants over the people of the British would-be Isles. Using sea shells collected over their thousand year reign, they built the Squarish Formation, which would be the largest manmade structure by mass for ~7000 years until the construction of Khufu's pyramid. And they spoke modern Finnish. 

Then the Calusa migrated to Florida and built Atlantis. 

[+joc]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Then the Calusa migrated to Florida and built Atlantis. 

I've taken to watching youtube video shorts lately for some reason.  So, I have been hearing a lot of people talking about the Amazon and all of these ancient cities, highly technological it seems that were never discovered until they started clearing the jungles...so...just asking the one person I think would know...what's up with that?

[flashman7870]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Then the Calusa migrated to Florida and built Atlantis. 

As a matter of fact - I think Abe has raised the possibility of a connection between Prehistoric Florida and Doggerland before! Specifically this site -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windover_Archeological_Site

Now we just need some evidence that the Calusa spoke Finnish and we're all set. 

Maybe that's what the old Welsh Indians thing was actually about - Europeans heard natives speaking something that sounded like one of the gibberish European language, they just decided it was the wrong kind of gibberish!

[Abramelin]

16 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

As a matter of fact - I think Abe has raised the possibility of a connection between Prehistoric Florida and Doggerland before!

Heh, I NEVER made that connection.

But yes, I once thought, many years ago, that the Windover people were descendents of Europeans.

I think it was either Cormac or Piney who proved me wrong.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Heh, I NEVER made that connection.

But yes, I once thought, many years ago, that the Windover people were descendents of Europeans.

I think it was either Cormac or Piney who proved me wrong.

Both...

[Piney]

18 hours ago, joc said:

I've taken to watching youtube video shorts lately for some reason.  So, I have been hearing a lot of people talking about the Amazon and all of these ancient cities, highly technological it seems that were never discovered until they started clearing the jungles...so...just asking the one person I think would know...what's up with that?

Cultural destruction. The Yanomami and their neighbors weren't primitive forest dwellers. They were beat down into that by the Spanish.

[Abramelin]

18 hours ago, joc said:

I've taken to watching youtube video shorts lately for some reason.  So, I have been hearing a lot of people talking about the Amazon and all of these ancient cities, highly technological it seems that were never discovered until they started clearing the jungles...so...just asking the one person I think would know...what's up with that?

The reports of Spanish conquistadors actually proved to be true.

These guys reported about many thousands of well- kept villages along the Amazon and its tribituaries.

But their reports were considered to be exaggerated. And that's being polite.

Lidar proved these reports were spot on.

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, Piney said:

Both...

Sorry, but I now think I remember it was Cormac. Let's be honest: when it's about genetics, Cormac is the one who responds with the most recent info. It's hìs thing.

[Abramelin]

20 minutes ago, Piney said:

Cultural destruction. The Yanomami and their neighbors weren't primitive forest dwellers. They were beat down into that by the Spanish.

We're deviating a bit from Doggerland, but I'd like it to be said (again) that this 'pristine' Amazon jungle wasn't that pristine at all: these socalled 'primitive Injuns' had reshaped it into a huge garden.

Then the christians from Europe entered their territory, slaughtered as much of them as was physically possible, introduced diseases, and by that decimated these 'primitives' and pushed them back to the stone age.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

19 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

Wrong, actually the Doggerlanders were Calusa-style fisher kings who lived on the bounty of the North Sea and Elbish littoral. They ruled as tyrants over the people of the British would-be Isles. Using sea shells collected over their thousand year reign, they built the Squarish Formation, which would be the largest manmade structure by mass for ~7000 years until the construction of Khufu's pyramid. And they spoke modern Finnish. 

Maybe try again next morning, after the buzz wore off.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Sorry, but I now think I remember it was Cormac. Let's be honest: when it's about genetics, Cormac is the one who responds with the most recent info. It's hìs thing.

It might of been but since I'm more than familiar with the Eastern Archaic Piney Island Culture and Windover itself I'm sure I chimed in.

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, Piney said:

It might of been but since I'm more than familiar with the Eastern Archaic Piney Island Culture and Windover itself I'm sure I chimed in.

I think it was a mutual effort on both our parts, but I could be wrong. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

Ok, ok, it were the both of you. Jesus.

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, ok, it were the both of you. Jesus.

 

[flashman7870]

On 3/1/2023 at 2:37 PM, Abramelin said:

Maybe try again next morning, after the buzz wore off.

Obviously I was joking with the concept, but honestly I do wonder about it as a possibility. A neolithic or palaeolithic culture legitimately could maintain something like a "civilization" with a sufficient density of fish around. If that existed in Doggerland, than its entirely possible that a true civilization did exist, with kings and complex labor and pantheons and heroic poems, all swept away beneath the rising tide, leaving nary a trace with the peoples that came after them. 

But of course, this is just baseless speculation, not even sure if the waterways in and around Doggerland supported such a population in its time. 

Probably the best way of identifying whether or not such a thing existed, archaeologically, would be to find large mounds of oyser or mussel shells beneath the north sea. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by flashman7870

[Piney]

7 hours ago, flashman7870 said:

Obviously I was joking with the concept, but honestly I do wonder about it as a possibility. A neolithic or palaeolithic culture legitimately could maintain something like a "civilization" with a sufficient density of fish around. If that existed in Doggerland, than its entirely possible that a true civilization did exist, with kings and complex labor and pantheons and heroic poems, all swept away beneath the rising tide, leaving nary a trace with the peoples that came after them. 

But of course, this is just baseless speculation, not even sure if the waterways in and around Doggerland supported such a population in its time. 

Probably the best way of identifying whether or not such a thing existed, archaeologically, would be to find large mounds of oyser or mussel shells beneath the north sea. 

Shell mounds in the Eastern U.S. like Tuckerton, New Jersey were created over a period of a few thousand years