Doggerland

[The Puzzler]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Britain: Paleolithic (c. 3.3m-9600BC) Mesolithic (c. 9600-4000BC) Neolithic (c. 4000-2500BC). 

And…?

[The Puzzler]

I’m so tired from work but I’m not sure what I’ve said wrong…I’ll assess all comments within 24 hrs ty

[Abramelin]

Zigzag lines and other protective patterns in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic art

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618219307657

 

[Abramelin]

14 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I’m so tired from work but I’m not sure what I’ve said wrong…I’ll assess all comments within 24 hrs ty

You didn't say anything wrong.

[The Puzzler]

19 hours ago, Abramelin said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr

Founded: Approximately 9300 BC

Abandoned: Approximately 8480 BC

Ah ha I’m awake now….I said after Neolithic lol 

Pre Beaker and before Neolithic….obviously

I told y’all I been working too hard 

[Abramelin]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:52 AM, The Puzzler said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia
Just the motion of the island really…

If you search for "Mestdagh" here on UM, you'll find my posts about his theory that the Vikings real goal was to find their mythical homeland. And it was rhombus shaped. According to him it was the "Ile de France"  which wasn't a real island. Well, read it yourself.

But when I read about this rhombus shaped island, I had to think about Jean Deruelle's theory that part of Doggerland/Dogger Island was protected by dikes. The funny thing is, that this island was... almost rhombus shaped.

 

I'm having a break now, but there's another thing. Your Wiki link mentions "Scandzia" or something. Several Greek geographers thought it was an island (the southern part of Sweden). It never was during their time, but it was almost an island during the time of Doggerland.

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'm having a break now, but there's another thing. Your Wiki link mentions "Scandzia" or something. Several Greek geographers thought it was an island (the southern part of Sweden). It never was during their time, but it was almost an island during the time of Doggerland.

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-3-319-51726-1_1998-2/MediaObjects/184254_0_En_1998-2_Fig1_HTML.png

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Abramelin

[docyabut2]

On 10/6/2009 at 7:30 AM, Abramelin said:

No, sorry, I don't get it...

I know the flooding of the Black Sea may have been much less catastrophic than prevously thought by Ryan and Pitman, and to quote something I posted here earlier, people didn't have to 'run for the hills'.

But the Storregga Slide which I have mentioned ad nauseum must have been a reallly catastrophic event for the people living on Doggerland.

You must not forget, Doggerland was flat as a pancake, with maybe only the present Doggers Bank sticking out from the suface as a low undulating hill. The tsunami that resulted from the Storregga Slide was huge, one of the largest ever, and must have whiped Doggerland clean.

The tsunami that resulted from the Storregga Slide was huge, one of the largest ever, and must have whiped Doggerland clean.

I agree. 

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

The tsunami that resulted from the Storregga Slide was huge, one of the largest ever, and must have whiped Doggerland clean.

I agree. 

You quoted a post from 2009...

In the meantime scientists found out that it was less catastrophic then once thought. A large part of Doggerland was already submerged before the tsunami took place.

[docyabut2]

 

 

[docyabut2]

17 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You quoted a post from 2009...

In the meantime scientists found out that it was less catastrophic then once thought. A large part of Doggerland was already submerged before the tsunami took place.

Can t remember that post.:( do you have that link ?

Edited April 12, 2023 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

 

 

That was educational, thanks

Interesting how far into Britain it reached. Also other countries and the heights of the sediment.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

You quoted a post from 2009...

In the meantime scientists found out that it was less catastrophic then once thought. A large part of Doggerland was already submerged before the tsunami took place.

Maybe not to Doggerland by then but I’d think catastrophic to the mainland countries it hit.

The whole area would have trembled from the slide, and the tsunamis wiped out communities living on the edges of the land it hit, massive waves, flooding, even though I don’t think the geological nature of Doggerland suffered too much and was mostly deserted by then, I think the impact of this event on the people living on the coasts would have been catastrophic. And remembered. 

[Essan]

6 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

. And remembered. 

And then forgotten. 

There are no myths or stories from Britain at all.   And even today people are still utterly surprised when a bit of the Norfolk coast falls into the sea along with their home, as if it's the first time such a thing has ever happened!  

 

[Thanos5150]

23 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And that is, as far as I understood it, based on similar zigzag decorations of Neolithic times. Not on radiocarbon dating.

Here a zigzag pattern on a bone, found at the bottom of the North Sea, and dated to Mesolithic times:

https://images.app.goo.gl/EF8RaUyej71u5dic6

 

Compare with the above:

How about the famous Blombos cave in South Africa c. 75,000BP:

 Or this one even older, Indonesia c. 100,000BP:

Chevron patterns are one of the most ubiquitous art motifs since man first scrawled.  

Quote

Edited to add:

No Thanos, I did not forget anything.

I merely assumed people following this thread would remember about the ingraved bone.

I was wrong, apparently.

When was that-10 years and 30 pages ago? 

And then you expect them to read the link and see that you were talking about artifacts 10,000yrs apart? 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Thanos5150
typo

[Thanos5150]

23 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Here a zigzag pattern on a bone, found at the bottom of the North Sea, and dated to Mesolithic times:

https://images.app.goo.gl/EF8RaUyej71u5dic6

 

Skull of 'Oldest Dutchwoman' Found Beneath the North Sea:

Quote

Oldest Dutch artwork

The decorated bison bone is slightly older than the human skull fragment — about 13,500 years old, the radiocarbon testing showed. Fishermen found the bone in the Brown Ridge area in 2005. It was then donated to the Netherlands' National Museum of Antiquities.

The carved zigzag pattern used to decorate the bone was characteristic of an abstract and geometric art style, attributed to the Federmesser culture of northwest Europe during the Late Paleolithic period (part of the Old Stone Age), said Niekus, who studied the prehistoric artwork for the new research.

"It has been suggested that the repetitive motifs have to do with streaming water, but another explanation, which we intend to explore further, is the fact that these zigzag patterns occur in [hallucinations] when shamans are in a trance,” Niekus said. "So, perhaps shamanism became more important during the Federmesser culture."

Similar zigzag decorations have been found on human-made artifacts from across Europe at that time — on the jawbone of a horse in the U.K., a deer antler from France and an elk antler from Poland, he said.

Such finds suggested that the different regions had a "shared symbolic vocabulary" that would have been understood by people over large parts of northwest Europe during the Late Paleolithic period, he said.

"We think this also means that there must have been quite intensive contacts over large areas," Niekus said. "People were very mobile in that period."

Federmesser culture:

Federmesser group is an archaeological umbrella term including the late Upper Paleolithic to Mesolithic cultures of the Northern European Plain, dating to between 14,000 and 12,800 years ago (the late Magdalenian).^[1] It is closely related to the Tjongerian culture, as both have been suggested.^[2] It includes the Tjongerian sites at Lochtenrek in the Frisian part of the Netherland, spanning the area of Belgium, the Netherlands, northern France, northern Germany, southern Denmark, and Poland (Tarnowian and Witowian cultures). It is also closely related to the Creswellian culture to the west and the Azilian to the south. The name is derived from the characteristic small backed flint blades, in German termed Federmesser ("quill knife"). It is succeeded by the Ahrensburg culture after 12,800 BP.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Thanos5150

[docyabut2]

is this the link ?

 

As recently as 20,000 years ago—not long in geological terms—Britain was not, in fact, an island. Instead, the terrain that became the British Isles was linked to mainland Europe by Doggerland, a tract of now-submerged territory where early Mesolithic hunter-gatherers lived, settled and traveled.

Doggerland gradually shrank as rising sea levels flooded the area.Then, around 6150 B.C., disaster struck: The Storegga Slide, a submarine landslide off the coast of Norway, triggered a tsunami in the North Sea, flooding the British coastline and likely killing thousands of humans based in coastal settlements, reports Esther Addley for the Guardian. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/tiny-islands-survived-tsunami-almost-separated-britain-europe-study-finds-180976430/

[Thanos5150]

22 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

And…?

And what...? 

You said:

Quote

How bout the pendant from Star Carr? Been reading heaps of the links,  I find Star Carr about the range of the Bouldnor Cliffs, an early Mesolithic people who inhabited Doggerland as they transferred into Britain. I don’t see any stone megaliths to before Neolithic. All the ones found seem to date at maybe 3000BC earliest. Star Carr is pre Beaker but after Neolithic.

If Star Carr is Mesolithic, and the Mesolithic is before the Neolithic as I noted for you, how do we explain them being as you claim "after Neolithic"? 

[Abramelin]

12 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

And what...? 

You said:

If Star Carr is Mesolithic, and the Mesolithic is before the Neolithic as I noted for you, how do we explain them being as you claim "after Neolithic"? 

She made a mistake, as she already explained.

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Essan said:

And then forgotten. 

There are no myths or stories from Britain at all.  

The problem is that there maybe àre myths about this event, but that we don't recognize them as such.

And it wouldn't be myths from only Britain, but also myths from other countries surrounding the present North Sea.

[Abramelin]

24 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

is this the link ?

 

As recently as 20,000 years ago—not long in geological terms—Britain was not, in fact, an island. Instead, the terrain that became the British Isles was linked to mainland Europe by Doggerland, a tract of now-submerged territory where early Mesolithic hunter-gatherers lived, settled and traveled.

Doggerland gradually shrank as rising sea levels flooded the area.Then, around 6150 B.C., disaster struck: The Storegga Slide, a submarine landslide off the coast of Norway, triggered a tsunami in the North Sea, flooding the British coastline and likely killing thousands of humans based in coastal settlements, reports Esther Addley for the Guardian. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/tiny-islands-survived-tsunami-almost-separated-britain-europe-study-finds-180976430/

It is.

[Thanos5150]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

She made a mistake, as she already explained.

And I just explained why I said what I did. 

Not a problem @The Puzzler. Just trying to be helpful to you. 

[Abramelin]

58 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

"It has been suggested that the repetitive motifs have to do with streaming water, but another explanation, which we intend to explore further, is the fact that these zigzag patterns occur in [hallucinations] when shamans are in a trance,” Niekus said. "So, perhaps shamanism became more important during the Federmesser culture."

Shamanism, halllucinations...

Using that, can you explain the next petroglyph:

I thought I could. And posted about it.

Please have a go.

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Maybe not to Doggerland by then but I’d think catastrophic to the mainland countries it hit.

The whole area would have trembled from the slide, and the tsunamis wiped out communities living on the edges of the land it hit, massive waves, flooding, even though I don’t think the geological nature of Doggerland suffered too much and was mostly deserted by then, I think the impact of this event on the people living on the coasts would have been catastrophic. And remembered. 

And another thing to add: according to a paper published by a Norwegian oil company, the tsunami may have lasted from a couple of hours... to a couple of days.

An unimaginable huge layer of sea sediment (the size of Ireland and half a mile thick) started shifting, and caused the - what's now known as - the Storegga Slide.

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said:

Compare with the above:

How about the famous Blombos cave in South Africa c. 75,000BP:

 Or this one even older, Indonesia c. 100,000BP:

Chevron patterns are one of the most ubiquitous art motifs since man first scrawled.  

When was that-10 years and 30 pages ago? 

And then you expect them to read the link and see that you were talking about artifacts 10,000yrs apart? 

I thought you were an avid reader, considering the tomes you regularly post, and that you wouldn't have any problem reading all of this thread from the start.

 

##

10,000 years apart you say.

Based on the assumption the 'map' was from Neolitic times.