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Perdition

Arizona Governor signs Immigration Bill

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Perdition
Passage of the law, which would, among other things, allow the authorities to demand proof of legal entry into the United States from anyone suspected of being in the country illegally, testified to the relative lack of political power of Arizona Latinos, and to the hardened views toward illegal immigration among Republican politicians both here and nationally.

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This new law allows police to question anyone they think is an illegal immigrant, and if they are unable to provide evidence they can be arrested and be charged a fine up to 500 dollars. Basically anyone who looks Hispanic can be question by authorities. Laws before did not require any officer to ask for proof of residency.

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the1truebat

This new law allows police to question anyone they think is an illegal immigrant, and if they are unable to provide evidence they can be arrested and be charged a fine up to 500 dollars. Basically anyone who looks Hispanic can be question by authorities. Laws before did not require any officer to ask for proof of residency.

Seeing as you are from AZ, how do you feel about it?

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GlassButterfly

yes, this is a stupid f*ing law. It'll be repealed though, just watch and wait. Police can't just harass people just because they "might" look like an illegal. Most cops are honest, but there's a few who will take this law too far. It never fails to happen. I love Arizona, but some of our leaders here are complete dumb@sses.

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Amberlight

It's real simple, if you have papers, you can get a job. No papers, no job. No harrassment from cops necessary. People will self deport to where ever they came from. If only Americans would observe and enforce the laws that already exist rather than stupid schemes like this. Funny how we are always screaming about illegal immigraton but don't observe or enforce our own laws already on the books.

Edited by Amberlight

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Fluffybunny

Well, I haven't seen all of the details here, but in general racial profiling works well in many areas. Take airport security for one...the last few times I have flown, I witnessed a ridiculously high percentage of elderly white people being pulled aside for the additional screening before getting on the plane. Why and 80 year old grandmother needs to have her personal belongings rifled through; her walker inspected...it is simply ridiculous.

The concept of flight security aside(what we are doing is debateable, but that is another topic), if we are going to go through the hassles of additional security, then lets be a tad more realistic at looking at who is more of a potential threat...

Common sense has gone out of the window in a world of PC'ness that is out of control. Considering the people that have flown planes into our buildings, which of the following persons would be more of a potential threat:

This person:

GrandmaMosesphoto.jpg

or this one:

mohammed_atta.jpg

So if your are a flight security officer and you have a limited amount of time to check passengers as they come through; which of the two will get your primary focus?

So that is profiling; and it works. To let the second man go through, and focus on the old white woman is exactly what happens in the US on a daily basis because we would rather risk death of a planeload of people than to offend someone.

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Wickian

Well it's kind of hard not to profile by race when nearly all illegal immigrants in Arizona are only one race isn't it?

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supervike

I agree that the laws already on the books should be enforced. But, I keep hearing how the local police 'don't feel it's their job to establish nationality'. Who's job would it be then?

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Perdition

Seeing as you are from AZ, how do you feel about it?

I have mixed feelings about this, but seeing as how much our budget deficit is we kind of need illegal immigrants to stay here since they make up about 26 million in economic activity.

I'm also kind of biased since I'm not white, my parents were immigrants but not Hispanic so if anything like this ever happened to our race I wouldn't be so happy. I've been very unhappy about this state lately because they have been pushing bills that upset me lately.

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supervike

I'm also kind of biased since I'm not white, my parents were immigrants but not Hispanic so if anything like this ever happened to our race I wouldn't be so happy. I've been very unhappy about this state lately because they have been pushing bills that upset me lately.

I don't think this is a racial thing at all. There are those that turn it into one. I don't begrudge these people for trying to make themselves a better life....but, and I know this sounds callous, but you can only have so many folks in a lifeboat before it capsizes.

I'd feel the same EXACT way if it were White Canadians coming here in droves.

Magical NAFTA was supposed to help the issue. If conditions are good in these immigrants home country, they wouldn't have to risk live or limb to try and get here. That was a colossal failure.

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IronGhost

Well, maybe it will kick out more illegals because I know so many Americans are just chomping at the bit to take over all those jobs they have taken up. "Hey, I could be cleaning toilets in that bus stop, but that undocumented Mexican has my job!"

And look over there, the illegal is enjoying his cushy job scraping chicken guts off that poultry plant floor for less than minimum wage and no benefits. That should be my job!

Or: "I know if I could take over that nanny job for those millionaires, and work for less than minimum wage, maybe I can make my house payment!"

So I hope this works out and keeps illegals out. For every illegal kicked out, another American can start breaking his or her back in a hot sugar beet field hoeing weeds under the blazing sun, and for sub-minimum wage.

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Siara

Our laws regarding illegal immigration from Mexico should be exactly the same as their law regarding the illegal immigration of Americans.

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acidhead

Well, maybe it will kick out more illegals because I know so many Americans are just chomping at the bit to take over all those jobs they have taken up. "Hey, I could be cleaning toilets in that bus stop, but that undocumented Mexican has my job!"

And look over there, the illegal is enjoying his cushy job scraping chicken guts off that poultry plant floor for less than minimum wage and no benefits. That should be my job!

Or: "I know if I could take over that nanny job for those millionaires, and work for less than minimum wage, maybe I can make my house payment!"

So I hope this works out and keeps illegals out. For every illegal kicked out, another American can start breaking his or her back in a hot sugar beet field hoeing weeds under the blazing sun, and for sub-minimum wage.

No offense.....

but your mocking towards low paying jobs could be of better use if directed the real reason why low paying jobs do not pay the bills.

-The private Federal Reserve and government™ regulations.

Need a classic example that proves this?

-government™ regulated minimum wage.

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zenfahr

Well, maybe it will kick out more illegals because I know so many Americans are just chomping at the bit to take over all those jobs they have taken up. "Hey, I could be cleaning toilets in that bus stop, but that undocumented Mexican has my job!"

And look over there, the illegal is enjoying his cushy job scraping chicken guts off that poultry plant floor for less than minimum wage and no benefits. That should be my job!

Or: "I know if I could take over that nanny job for those millionaires, and work for less than minimum wage, maybe I can make my house payment!"

So I hope this works out and keeps illegals out. For every illegal kicked out, another American can start breaking his or her back in a hot sugar beet field hoeing weeds under the blazing sun, and for sub-minimum wage.

Since when have jobs like this become below us... I hear alot of people using this argument but it just does not stand. There are millions upon millions of legal citizens that would love to do any work. What happened to the days when teenagers went to work for the summer.

The issue here is not the jobs, but the pay. As long as employers can get away with paying someone less than minimum wage we will have this issue. Its not the immigrants fault.

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AROCES

Well, I haven't seen all of the details here, but in general racial profiling works well in many areas. Take airport security for one...the last few times I have flown, I witnessed a ridiculously high percentage of elderly white people being pulled aside for the additional screening before getting on the plane. Why and 80 year old grandmother needs to have her personal belongings rifled through; her walker inspected...it is simply ridiculous.

The concept of flight security aside(what we are doing is debateable, but that is another topic), if we are going to go through the hassles of additional security, then lets be a tad more realistic at looking at who is more of a potential threat...

Common sense has gone out of the window in a world of PC'ness that is out of control. Considering the people that have flown planes into our buildings, which of the following persons would be more of a potential threat:

This person:

GrandmaMosesphoto.jpg

or this one:

mohammed_atta.jpg

So if your are a flight security officer and you have a limited amount of time to check passengers as they come through; which of the two will get your primary focus?

So that is profiling; and it works. To let the second man go through, and focus on the old white woman is exactly what happens in the US on a daily basis because we would rather risk death of a planeload of people than to offend someone.

I think all airlines should have 2 kinds of flight. One with strict security for those who does not mind profiling, and another one for those who's feelings might get hurt in profiling.

let's see then which flight is always full.

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AROCES

Our laws regarding illegal immigration from Mexico should be exactly the same as their law regarding the illegal immigration of Americans.

They can hurt our feelings, but we are not suppose to hurt theirs.

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J.B.

They can hurt our feelings, but we are not suppose to hurt theirs.

PC Rubbish.

Have the States done things that we shouldn't have? Probably.

Do we have anything to be /ashamed/ of? We wouldn't if we'd behave, and that behaving has nothing to do with kowtowing to others. Offended? Tough. Not our job to cater to the feelings of others. If our actions don't harm people outside our nation - I know, we have to kick this damn war habit first - then our culture shouldn't matter to everyone else. Why? Because if we're good people, who might be a little rough around the edges to others, and if we fix our damn country so that we have jobs, and real exports again, I doubt a little attitude here or there, a derogatory term once in a while which should be watched but not choked out of us, is going to keep people away.

Some nations have sensed a little weakness in our culture, and they're exploiting it, is all. Crush that weakness, stop apologizing for a few words, and we'll regain a bit of that subconscious barely acknowledged respect we had before the World Wars.

As for immigration: Ninja and I did a little word sparring on the subject in the other thread on this subject, and ya know, he made a valid point. At one time every one of us Americans, barring the pure-blood Natives, was like the illegals, coming into America and sending money home to bring our families and friends here. Unfortunately, the lifeboat argument actually does work. There's only so much of that stuff that we can take, and what starts a nation: mass immigration . . . cannot be used to keep it up. At some point you have to close the immigration to a trickle and work with what's here. Not outsource jobs, not bring in millions of lowly paid folk from somewhere else, but deal with the citizens of the nation who are here legally, who were born here, or in one of our international holdings.

Edited by J.B.

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supervike

As for immigration: Ninja and I did a little word sparring on the subject in the other thread on this subject, and ya know, he made a valid point. At one time every one of us Americans, barring the pure-blood Natives, was like the illegals, coming into America and sending money home to bring our families and friends here. Unfortunately, the lifeboat argument actually does work. There's only so much of that stuff that we can take, and what starts a nation: mass immigration . . . cannot be used to keep it up. At some point you have to close the immigration to a trickle and work with what's here. Not outsource jobs, not bring in millions of lowly paid folk from somewhere else, but deal with the citizens of the nation who are here legally, who were born here, or in one of our international holdings.

I guess I don't know what a 'pure blooded' Native is. I was born here, as was my parents, back quite a few generations. I'm not beholden to what they did or didn't do...As none of them have passed on any family wealth, I'm quite sure I'm not guilty of any wrong doings they were part of.

EVERYONE in this country 'immigrated' here from somewhere. What makes 'Native Americans' so special?

(sorry, I just take issue with that one statement, the rest of your points are dead on.)

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acidhead

Obama™ has spoken.... for the Federal government™

He may as well of said "screw State rights - the Federal Government™ knows best for Everybody".

-the guy is a complete fraud.

By the CNN Wire Staff

April 23, 2010 1:54 p.m. EDT

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/23/obama.immigration/index.html?hpt=T1

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama on Friday criticized a controversial new immigration bill in Arizona, calling it "misguided."

"Our failure to act responsible at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as

Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe," the president said at a naturalization ceremony for 24 members of the military.

"In fact, I've instructed members of my administration to closely monitor the situation and examine the civil rights and other implications of this legislation. But if we continue to fail to act at the federal level, we will continue to see misguided efforts opening up around the country."

Obama added, "As a nation, as a people, we can choose a different future, a future that keeps faith with our history, with our heritage, and with the hope that America has always inspired in the hearts of people all over the world."

**********

Edited by acidhead

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acidhead

I guess I don't know what a 'pure blooded' Native is. I was born here, as was my parents, back quite a few generations. I'm not beholden to what they did or didn't do...As none of them have passed on any family wealth, I'm quite sure I'm not guilty of any wrong doings they were part of.

EVERYONE in this country 'immigrated' here from somewhere. What makes 'Native Americans' so special?

(sorry, I just take issue with that one statement, the rest of your points are dead on.)

Apparently nothing...

Hence why they were nearly wiped off the map by immigrants.

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J.B.

I guess I don't know what a 'pure blooded' Native is. I was born here, as was my parents, back quite a few generations. I'm not beholden to what they did or didn't do...As none of them have passed on any family wealth, I'm quite sure I'm not guilty of any wrong doings they were part of.

EVERYONE in this country 'immigrated' here from somewhere. What makes 'Native Americans' so special?

(sorry, I just take issue with that one statement, the rest of your points are dead on.)

Pure Blooded member of the Native tribes, we'll put it that way. What makes them special is the pure dumb luck that they were the first humans even on this continent. So I guess we should call them America's discoverers.

Chances are that on the local level, this new law does very little if anything. By now, the cops in an area will know the people living there, at least if they're anything like the local cops where I live. In most places, no one who is already living in the area will be hassled, beyond maybe a request to verify that the person is indeed legal. New cops who get transferred will learn from their superiors who is and isn't legal in whatever areas they move to, this bill/law will only really affect newly arrived hispanics and vacationers.

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ohio traveler

The illegals may only come here for the work. But they stay for the free government hand-outs provided by legal tax paying Americans.

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ninjadude

Well, I haven't seen all of the details here, but in general racial profiling works well in many areas. Take airport security for one

I know you're trying to make a point that profiling works. And it does in some cases. The Israelis have used it for years. But those are "security" situations. This is quite different. Illegal immigration is not about security. It's not economic. They pay taxes and many times do menial or manual low pay jobs The made up *backlash* is racist - IMO. I'm sure the Tea Partiers/repubs will screem they're not. But let's be clear. Our country is made up of immigrants from all over the world. Who came here, sent money back home to bring more people here, to have babies that were automatically American citizens. This is quintessentially what America is all about. To deny that is myopic and a complete ignorance of US history. I'm not surprised considering the educational civics ignorance I see. There is no magical threshold that is reached for any one group. It's a tired and tried attack on immigrants that has been used throughout the history of America. It was used against Japanese, Vietnamese, Germans, Italians, Irish, and lots of others.

Someone walking down the street or in their own house or yard is by definition supposed to be secure in their own persons from unreasonable search and seizure (I don't have the exact quotes right now). This law breaks that. You can be stopped and arrested (but ultimately cleared) just for looking hispanic. It targets a specific racial group.

Further, it sets up a condition where you must carry your *papers*. Something most places have clearly done away with as unconstitutional. There is no national id. Sorry to bring this to Godwin but that's exactly what the Nazi's did. We Americans like the fact that we can move about and exist anonymously if we choose.

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Astute One

Arizona governor signs immigration bill.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/23/20100423arizona-immigration-law-passed.html

Now Arizona can force the Army National Guard to protect the border. This means the Federal Government can be used to round up illegal immigrants and deport them even though the current administration is developing an amnesty program. Sounds like another Federal conflict of interest!

Would you be willing to pay higher taxes to pay for the National Guard to lower crime, save American jobs, and deport those that are here illegally milking our health care and lowering the standards in our education system?

How do you think the BO adminstration is going to react to this bill?

Will other states join the campaign?

Edited by Astute One

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Startraveler

I'm interested in seeing how the Tea Party acolytes react to this sort of law. Is a (state) law allowing state officials to demand your papers on a whim an oppressive affront to liberty or an acceptable means to an end? Anyone have any resources on the general response from that crowd?

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Astute One

I'm interested in seeing how the Tea Party acolytes react to this sort of law. Is a (state) law allowing state officials to demand your papers on a whim an oppressive affront to liberty or an acceptable means to an end? Anyone have any resources on the general response from that crowd?

Well Startraveler,

You know me a little. I think it is about time this law was passed. They can't demand on a whim. They need a reason to ask. If the guy can't speak English that is probible cause. The police are not supposed to walk up to a group of hispanics and haul them off. They can ask them questions and if their answers indicate suspicion, they can ask for citizenship documents. I'm sure this will not always be the case but so what. I won't be offended if I am stopped and asked questions about my citizenship.

I hope they go a step furthre and call up the national guard. Place a bradley fighting vehicle every mile along the border for intimidation. Fire warning shots over the heads of those who dare to cross. If they keep coming, arrest them. If they carry weapons, treat them like insurgents in Iraq and wax them where the stand because they are insurgents by definition of insurgency.

from wiki: An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognised as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognised as belligerents.

I wish the Texas government had the nerve to take the same action. Hopefully this bill will be contagious. I think Oklahoma already did it.

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