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Perdition

Arizona Governor signs Immigration Bill

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Astute One

How can it NOT be racial profiling?

What about other states doing the same for Asian illegals or heck, Canadian?

How is this law even valid? State law cannot over ride federal law?

Nibs

Nibs, Aren't you Canadian? Why don't you sneak accross the border and to AZ. Then go to a cop and tell him your parents live in Canada. Watch how your are immediately profiled as a suspected illegal immigrant. Would you consider this racially profiled? You are white, right?

Point being. Your will be profiled based on your answers to questions and not your race. If anyone looks at this logically, they will understand that this is nationality profiling. It's done everyday at immigration check points around the world and U.S. It has nothing to do with race. Playing the race card is easy and simple, and people jump on the racism train because it's political.

Choo Choo Nibs, ride that train. choo choo.

You are not alone. I notice all the shades are draw over all the windows on the choo choo. It's easier to sleep in the dark.

Edited by Astute One

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Perdition

That's not the way the law is supposed to work but just like any law, laws can be abused. Anytime anything is done to clamp down on a group of people, it doesn't matter who they are, the group protests. This is just the way it is. These protest won't do any good. The majority wants the law, and it is completely constitutional.

Actually, this law protects the constitution by protecting the citizens and constitution from foriegn invaders. Those immigrant, American citizens who protest should be deported for violating their Oath of Allegiance to United States. By protesting, these naturalized U.S. citizens, formerly Mexicans, are stating that their allegiance may lie with the invaders; which is clearly an oath violation.

http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-4180714/aHR0cDovL3d3dy51c2Npcy5nb3YvZmlsZXMvbmF0aXZlZG9jdW1lbnRzL00tNzYucGRm

Doesn't it make sense then for the protesters who are naturalized U.S. citizens from Mexico to be interogated because by protesting they give probable cause for accusations of siding with the invaders (Mexicans); and if they make statements indicating their allegiance to Mexco, they should be stripped of citizenship and sent back to Mexico for violating their oath of allegiance by acting as a traitor to the USA. OR maybe slap them on the hand and make them take a few classes on honor, ethics, and conflict of interest.

If not, what good is an Oath of Allegiance, and it should be eliminated if we are not going to use the oath to protect the USA.

Interesting?

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about illegal aliens, but what ultimately this law could lead to is racial profiling. No one of any race wants to be continuously asked for identification for being legal citizens. If you were a legal born Hispanic in the the US, how does that make you feel by having officers constantly asking for your ID because you happen to "look illegal." Even for me who is Asian american, I could be asked for ID. If I don't have ID I would be arrested, even though I was born and raised in the US.

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HerNibs

Nibs, Aren't you Canadian? Why don't you sneak accross the border and to AZ. Then go to a cop and tell him your parents live in Canada. Watch how your are immediately profiled as a suspected illegal immigrant. Would you consider this racially profiled? Your are white, right?

Going to an officer and TELLING them I'm not American is a big difference from having an officer stop me and ask me for proof of citizenship due to the way I look and as far as I can tell, that is enough of a reason for the officer to stop someone.

Oh, I'm not Canadian.

Point being. Your will be profiled based on your answers to questions and not your race. If anyone looks at this logically, they will understand that his is nationality profiling. It's done everyday a immigration check points around the world and U.S. It has nothing to do with race. Playing the race card is easy and simple, and people jump on the racism train because it's easy and political.

WHY would an officer even begin to ask an individual any questions about citizenship?

What would be the reason for them to stop some one in the first place?

Nibs

______________________

ETA - I don't understand the "choochoo" stuff you added.

Edited by HerNibs

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Astute One

Going to an officer and TELLING them I'm not American is a big difference from having an officer stop me and ask me for proof of citizenship due to the way I look and as far as I can tell, that is enough of a reason for the officer to stop someone.

Oh, I'm not Canadian.

WHY would an officer even begin to ask an individual any questions about citizenship?

What would be the reason for them to stop some one in the first place?

Nibs

Come on Nibs. You get pulled over for speeding in AZ. You give the cop a Canadian drivers license. He asks you where you are from. You say Canada. He says. Do you have a visa?...you studder because you don't.... and then you say, yes, I have one. And sense you studdered, the cop says, can I see your passport and visa please.

By, by, Nibs. Hello Canada, sure is good to see you again.

You were just profiled. Did race have anything to do with it?

Edited by Astute One

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susieice

Most states require all adults over the age of 18 to carry some sort of state issued ID card or driver's license. I can't go to the bank or use a credit card in a store without showing mine. All visitors to the US must show a current visa upon request to stay here. School students must carry a school issued ID card with their picture on it. Unfortunately, this must be done for security purposes. Most workplaces require an ID badge for the same reason.

It is a shame to have to put a racist tag on AZ, but because of their location, Mexico comes immediately to mind and it has been the main source of illegals, but there are illegals here from Asia and even Europe. Yes, even Canadians must show some sort of ID to be in the US legally and visa versa. Any of us could be asked to present our ID if it appears as though we may be doing something wrong.

This thread seems to be going more along the lines of racial profiling, which black americans have been dealing with for years. That is not the way to go, but if you are asked to present something showing who you are and that you are here legally, citizen or not, you should be able to do so. The law provides for legal entry into the country if you only apply for a work visa. You may have to renew it every 6 months, but your safe from deportation.

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J.B.

Probable Cause: Not talking. Not talking in English. A cop could just ask you average day questions and if you speak fine enough English, you probably will get along well, without any id being asked for.

Cops who already know you aren't going to start asking you for ID. They'll already know if you're legally here, and if they don't, a quick stop home to get your ID will be all it takes. Honestly, no one should go without their driver's liscense or some form of ID in the first place, because you can die at any time, and it's just common sense that you should always have some form of ID on you. Laziness is never a defense.

Law of unintended consequences always comes into play, and yeah, there's gonna be issues here, tough. They happen. Looking Hispanic? That's not enough for probable cause. Period. This law has good potential for shifting the problem to something more manageable without demeaning our legal immigration process.

Also, earlier, maybe in another thread, Ninja said there's no threshold for a single race,. You're right, I wasn't being racist with my threshold talk. I was saying there's a threshold when you have to drop the population in a nation to a certain level. Are we there yet? The threshold changes based on economics. Right now, yeah, 10% unemployment says we've probably hit our population threshold here. We need to curb the immigration altogether for a while.

The war on terror: Mexico should have been one of our targets. Our neighbors should always be watched, anyway. Especially Mexico. Any nation that pumps out masses of illegal immigrants into our nation needs to be investigated, diplomatically, and then whatever operations need to take place to fix the issue need to take place. Can be as simple as opening up student exchange and training their own students to fix the issue, or could be as dangerous as sending in spec ops teams to deal with some politicians who are hurting the nation.

Edited by J.B.

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Astute One

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about illegal aliens, but what ultimately this law could lead to is racial profiling. No one of any race wants to be continuously asked for identification for being legal citizens. If you were a legal born Hispanic in the the US, how does that make you feel by having officers constantly asking for your ID because you happen to "look illegal." Even for me who is Asian american, I could be asked for ID. If I don't have ID I would be arrested, even though I was born and raised in the US.

Well, I've been pulled over more than I care to admit. I am asked, have you had anything to drink just about every single time. I don't drink. Am I offended by the fact that I was asked a profiling question to establish if any law has been broken. Do you understand how silly this argument really is. I get asked if I have any guns in my car. Am I offended? I am asked to produce my insurance card to prove that I am legal. There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.

I am white and when I go to Mexico. The INS officer always asks me when I return to the US, "what is your nationality." Is he racially profiling me? Is my answer more believable than an answer from a hispanic speaking spanish? Most of the time, yes.

The accusations of racism HAVE NO MERIT. It's another BS argument because those affected feel offended. SO what. How come they aren't whinning about having to show proof of insurance even though a majority does not have it just like many don't have citizenship?

Edited by Astute One

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Perdition

Well, I've been pulled over more than I care to admit. I am asked, have you had anything to drink just about every single time. I don't drink. Am I offended by the fact that I was asked a profiling question to establish if any law has been broken. Do you understand how silly this argument really is. I get asked if I have any guns in my car. Am I offended? I am asked to produce my insurance card to prove that I am legal. There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.

I am white and when I go to Mexico. The INS officer always asks me when I return to the US, "what is your nationality." Is he racially profiling me? Is my answer more believable than an answer from a hispanic speaking spanish? Most of the time, yes.

The accusations of racism HAVE NO MERIT. It's another BS argument because those affected feel offended. SO what. How come they aren't whinning about having to show proof of insurance even though a majority does not have it just like many don't have citizenship?

Thats funny cause i have been to mexico many times and have NEVER been asked what nationality I was. The only thing that I have been asked is where are we heading too, even with a giant camper being towed from our car, and my dad's horrible accent, they never check us. If you were Hispanic yes they would check you, because its from mexico going into USA. Coming back from Vietnam only vietnamese people were checked at US customs and white people were allowed to walk. Yes it makes me mad even though I haven't brought anything back that I shouldn't have, but this issue is border control.

However being in the states is different. Its not the border anymore, its where citizens live. This law allows officers to be able to walk up to just about anyone on the streets and ask them for ID. Maybe a group of mexicans are standing outside a gas station that officer "under reasonable suspicion" can go up to them and ask them to show their ID.

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Astute One

Thats funny cause i have been to mexico many times and have NEVER been asked what nationality I was. The only thing that I have been asked is where are we heading too, even with a giant camper being towed from our car, and my dad's horrible accent, they never check us. If you were Hispanic yes they would check you, because its from mexico going into USA. Coming back from Vietnam only vietnamese people were checked at US customs and white people were allowed to walk. Yes it makes me mad even though I haven't brought anything back that I shouldn't have, but this issue is border control.

However being in the states is different. Its not the border anymore, its where citizens live. This law allows officers to be able to walk up to just about anyone on the streets and ask them for ID. Maybe a group of mexicans are standing outside a gas station that officer "under reasonable suspicion" can go up to them and ask them to show their ID.

Did the dogs sniff your camper? If not, you were lucky. Have you ever been sent into secondary and searched. I have about five times. Do I have a problem with it? No, not as long as they don't tear up my property. Did they profile me? Yes. So what!

I have gone through with just one question and that is, what is your citizenship? Maybe, by your actions, you already indicated your citizenship with your US license plate, so he didn't ask.

Arizona is a boarder state. So what's the problem?

Edited by Astute One

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Perdition

What gives them the right to search people without a warrant? Are you telling me that you are allowing this law to break the constitution?

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J.B.

I can back that search up with some specific logic, though I don't think they need to do warrantless searches to pull this immigration reform off.

The logic: They'll only search people when they have probable cause to do so, and if that probable cause checks out, the people being searched are not U.S. citizens, and therefore are not subject to the parts of the Constitution that apply to U.S. citizens alone.

It's not national IDs that bug me, it's just how much they want to put on the damn things. All it needs is my name, my birthdate, and some proof that I'm an American citizen. They should leave it at that, and yes, everyone should carry one at all times. It's not that hard. Just don't get too restrictive on what those caqrds allow you access to. The problem with "Your papers, sir?" Was that the papers usually delineated what, exactly, you could do. they didn't stand simply as proof you belong in the nation.

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Perdition

I thought that all persons in the US are protected under the 14th amendment, including illegals.

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Astute One

What gives them the right to search people without a warrant? Are you telling me that you are allowing this law to break the constitution?

Since when do they need a warrant to search somebody? Cops search innocent people all the time. The constitution is being protected by enforcing the new law.

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J.B.

I thought that all persons in the US are protected under the 14th amendment, including illegals.

From what I read, the original intent of the 14th amendment wasn't to cover Illegals. Hell, the intent doesn't even specify that children born in the states to illegals are American citizens. It's just assumed to be so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Citizenship_Clause

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Startraveler

From what I read, the original intent of the 14th amendment wasn't to cover Illegals. Hell, the intent doesn't even specify that children born in the states to illegals are American citizens. It's just assumed to be so.

The citizenship question doesn't matter for the point Perdition was making. Read the text of the first section:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It carefully lays out a definition of citizen and then assures that no state will "abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." Then, in the bit I bolded, it abandons the "citizen" language for the much broader "person" to describe those entitled to due process and equal protection of the laws.

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Perdition

Since when do they need a warrant to search somebody? Cops search innocent people all the time. The constitution is being protected by enforcing the new law.

The 4th amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Edited by Perdition

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Solipsi Rai

To be blunt, the feds failed to properly secure our borders and the Arizona section of the Mexican border is very unsecure. The San Diego sector has a 20-foot tall fence with modern security features and it's nicknamed the "Wall of shame", but after it's completion in phases from 1996 to 2001, the rate of illegal immigration through the port of entries in San Ysidro, Otay Mesa and Tecate dropped by 80-90% in the decade (2000s). Locals in the San Diego area said the standard of living in the communities improved along with the job market when the economy thrived in the late 1990s and again mid 2000s before the real estate bubble burst, also severely affected Arizona.

The consequences of the San Diego sector fence was moving the path of illegal immigrants entering the US into the Arizona desert increased to a point that state was feeling overwhelmed. Also was the decision by New Mexico gov. Bill Richardson to dispatch the National Guard in the summer of 2006 made NM unaccessible to illegal immigration, made the towns of Naco, Douglas and Nogales very desirable for them.

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Doc Socks Junior

I guess it really is true. You can't spell Racism without ( R ).

Did you really just say that? That's remarkably like saying that you can't spell Dumb with ( D ). What a coincidence...

Edited by socrates.junior

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Poopie

I guess it really is true. You can't spell Racism without ( R ).

Dude you need to **** OFF!!!

Spammer.

Edited by Poopie

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Astute One

The 4th amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Probable cause and cops can search you legally. Of course you have to prove to the court he doesn't have probable cause, because the cop will use some reason to show that he does have PC. Either way, if you are suspected of being illegal, you are PC-in your way to Mexico.

I guess I better start carrying my passport while in AZ. I guess they could haul me, a while male, down if I don't have proper info. I know a guy who got jailed because he wouldn't tell the cops his name and he had no ID. They finger printed him to find out who he was, then let him go, and called him a dumb a.s. Did they have probable cause. Yes, he was in someone elses car with their ID-Kinda like speaking spanish in an immigration investigation.

Edited by Astute One

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Perdition

Probable cause and cops can search you legally. Of course you have to prove to the court he doesn't have probable cause, because the cop will use some reason to show that he does have PC. Either way, if you are suspected of being illegal, you are PC-in your way to Mexico.

I guess I better start carrying my passport while in AZ. I guess they could haul me, a while male, down if I don't have proper info. I know a guy who got jailed because he wouldn't tell the cops his name and he had no ID. They finger printed him to find out who he was, then let him go, and called him a dumb a.s. Did they have probable cause. Yes, he was in someone elses car with their ID-Kinda like speaking spanish in an immigration investigation.

So what is the probable cause to assume a person is illegal? Reasonable suspicion? You're only looking at the outside, how they look, how they talk etc. Probable cause? What has that person done to make the officer think hes illegal?

While being pulled over is one thing because everyone has to give them some from of ID (driver's license), if you don't have it your screwed no matter if you are illegal or not. But if the person is somewhere public minding their own business, what gives the officer the right to question them? What gives the officer the right to walk up to them assuming they are illegal immigrants? If that person is not breaking the law visually ie. doing drugs, stealing, etc. then what reasons do officers have?

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Astute One

So what is the probable cause to assume a person is illegal? Reasonable suspicion? You're only looking at the outside, how they look, how they talk etc. Probable cause? What has that person done to make the officer think hes illegal?

While being pulled over is one thing because everyone has to give them some from of ID (driver's license), if you don't have it your screwed no matter if you are illegal or not. But if the person is somewhere public minding their own business, what gives the officer the right to question them? What gives the officer the right to walk up to them assuming they are illegal immigrants? If that person is not breaking the law visually ie. doing drugs, stealing, etc. then what reasons do officers have?

Fail to speak english. change his story. Hand the officer a Mexican passport. Hand the officer a Mexican drivers license. The officer sees drugs on him or sees a gun in his pocket. The accused answers a question and states hisr parents live in Mexico. When asked where he is from, saying he was born in Mexico.....yada, yada, yada.

All these are probable cause.

How many can you think of?

Cops don't have the right without probable cause.

But some cops do it anyway. These cops did it before the new law and they will do it after. So what, the system isn't perfect. It's part of being an immigrant and their ancestors will appreciate their sacrafice like I appreciates those before me who sacraficed.

Edited by Astute One

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SRCivic98

Well the only thing can make a person removable from the U.S. is someone who isn't a citizen and is here illegally. The only way probable cause can be assumed is if proof of citizenship is asked for and the person in question is unable to show any or attempts to flee. At that point they have broken a federal law for illegally immigrating into the country.

Most likely officers will only ask someone who can't speak, or has a poor understand of, English.

or is the person is acting really suspicious when there's an officer present. That would get my attention as well and then I'd just talk to them and ask them if everything is okay....but if they still seem jumpy then I would ask for ID. After that if they said they didn't understand or started acting scared then I would really start thinking about the situation because either one they're going to show you proof of citizenship or two, things are going to get interesting.

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zenfahr

I know you're trying to make a point that profiling works. And it does in some cases. The Israelis have used it for years. But those are "security" situations. This is quite different. Illegal immigration is not about security. It's not economic. They pay taxes and many times do menial or manual low pay jobs The made up *backlash* is racist - IMO. I'm sure the Tea Partiers/repubs will screem they're not. But let's be clear. Our country is made up of immigrants from all over the world. Who came here, sent money back home to bring more people here, to have babies that were automatically American citizens. This is quintessentially what America is all about. To deny that is myopic and a complete ignorance of US history. I'm not surprised considering the educational civics ignorance I see. There is no magical threshold that is reached for any one group. It's a tired and tried attack on immigrants that has been used throughout the history of America. It was used against Japanese, Vietnamese, Germans, Italians, Irish, and lots of others.

Someone walking down the street or in their own house or yard is by definition supposed to be secure in their own persons from unreasonable search and seizure (I don't have the exact quotes right now). This law breaks that. You can be stopped and arrested (but ultimately cleared) just for looking hispanic. It targets a specific racial group.

Further, it sets up a condition where you must carry your *papers*. Something most places have clearly done away with as unconstitutional. There is no national id. Sorry to bring this to Godwin but that's exactly what the Nazi's did. We Americans like the fact that we can move about and exist anonymously if we choose.

I agree with what you wrote, but ultimately it will come down the states right to govern itself. Unless you live down here you really are not fully aware of the extremity of the situation. Our borders are being overrun by an overflowing war between the Mexican cartels and the military. The governt has provided a border patrol, but it is not effective enough. The violence is spilling over into our country, this is an attempt to curb that. We need to stop worrying about what people think, and start doing what is nessisary. There is no national ID, sure. But just about EVERYONE has some sort of state ID and I would dare anyone, white, black, hispanic or chinese, to deny a cop, when he asks to see it. Law or no law right or wrong, if you do not show your ID they will take you in. I believe in immigration, I have no problem with any immigrant… IF and only IF they go through the proper channels for being here.

Edited by zenfahr

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Paranormalcy

Topics merged. Please check forums for a topic before posting yours to avoid making IDENTICAL POSTS.

Also, I have removed a couple of posts that had no business being in here, political party mudslinging. Whatever other possibly relevant or useful information was in those posts is lost too - I'm not going to dig through someone's posts because they made a bad judgment and decided to throw in stupid insults - if you want your stuff taken on its merit and read, keep it civil - if you're not worried about it, just keep on including your divisive rhetoric along with the rest of your post and see how much of your stuff sees the light of day.

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