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Perdition

Arizona Governor signs Immigration Bill

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zenfahr

So what is the probable cause to assume a person is illegal? Reasonable suspicion? You're only looking at the outside, how they look, how they talk etc. Probable cause? What has that person done to make the officer think hes illegal?

While being pulled over is one thing because everyone has to give them some from of ID (driver's license), if you don't have it your screwed no matter if you are illegal or not. But if the person is somewhere public minding their own business, what gives the officer the right to question them? What gives the officer the right to walk up to them assuming they are illegal immigrants? If that person is not breaking the law visually ie. doing drugs, stealing, etc. then what reasons do officers have?

Dude, you can get pulled over for doing nothing. A cop can search your car for no reason what so ever. All they need to do is justify their actions.... ie... I pulled you over because you had your brights on, but now that I have pulled you over I think I smell something, Im going to need to search your car, Lame! But it happens all the time. But they are not going to start walking up to every person with brown skin asking to see IDs. But with that said, its not as hard as you would think to spot an illegal alien and a person who is here legally.

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Michelle

Dude, you can get pulled over for doing nothing. A cop can search your car for no reason what so ever. All they need to do is justify their actions.... ie... I pulled you over because you had your brights on, but now that I have pulled you over I think I smell something, Im going to need to search your car, Lame! But it happens all the time. But they are not going to start walking up to every person with brown skin asking to see IDs. But with that said, its not as hard as you would think to spot an illegal alien and a person who is here legally.

I agree with you here again. The police can ask you for an ID at any time. If you stand around outside of business after hours they have every right to stop and ask you why you are loitering. They have no idea if you are a lookout for someone that has broken in or if you are casing the place and from my experience it makes no difference what color you are or whether you are male or female. I've stopped at our business, in a bad part of town, to pick up paperwork or to check on the place on a Sunday when all of the neighboring businesses are closed. If the cop is new and happens to drive by they will stop and ask me if everything is okay and ask to see ID. I am glad that they do and am never offended.

Edited by Michelle

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DieChecker

I think that Profiling is really a bad practice. But, I also feel that Illegal Aliens are breaking the law, simply by being here. If I snuck into a African, Middle Eastern, or even European country, they would have no problems with throwing me in a prison and (Hopefully) sending me back to the States. The millions of illegals have no "Right" to be here. They criminally infiltrated our borders in the hopes that they can hide from the system long enough to have some kind of History so they can petition to stay here.

I have read too that the California fence worked really well. The Cali locals that were so angry and defiant when it was going up are singing a different tune now.

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Perdition

Dude, you can get pulled over for doing nothing. A cop can search your car for no reason what so ever. All they need to do is justify their actions.... ie... I pulled you over because you had your brights on, but now that I have pulled you over I think I smell something, Im going to need to search your car, Lame! But it happens all the time. But they are not going to start walking up to every person with brown skin asking to see IDs. But with that said, its not as hard as you would think to spot an illegal alien and a person who is here legally.

Cops are not allowed to check your car without a warrant. They are allowed to look from the outside into your car but never conduct a full search. They trick you into giving up your rights so they can search your car. You can refuse if they ask to check your car, your house, anything you own. Just like you have the right to remain silent. Every person in the US is protected by all the amendments no matter if you are a citizen or not.

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ninjadude

Most states require all adults over the age of 18 to carry some sort of state issued ID card or driver's license

to drive yes. to walk down the street or sit in your house? no.

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ninjadude

Probable Cause: Not talking. Not talking in English. A cop could just ask you average day questions and if you speak fine enough English, you probably will get along well, without any id being asked for.

so all the millions of people in the US who don't speak english can be arrested? no that's not gonna work either.

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ninjadude

Cops don't have the right without probable cause.

with this law they do in arizona.

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Poopie

Ninja's right. As much as I hate to admit it...

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ninjadude

Ninja's right. As much as I hate to admit it...

:ph34r:

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Wickian

so all the millions of people in the US who don't speak english can be arrested? no that's not gonna work either.

They won't arrest you for not speaking English, I'm sure there will be plenty of tourists in AZ to see the Grand Canyon. They'll arrest after you don't speak English and you're then unable to provide a passport or I.D.

Edited by Wickian

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Lord Umbarger

In normal times, yeah, I'd have to agree that it'd be a little on the draconian side but, with things the way they are, I honestly don't. This is our country. If we sneak into YOUR country, have large segments of our population refuse to even learn YOUR language, avoid paying our fair share of taxes and shift that burden on to you and YOUR family, wouldn't you get a little tired of it too? Im all honesty, can you think of any nation on Earth with the means to control it's border that doesn't? How is it that when the US does what every other nation on Earth does, we're called "unfair" and "racist"? Do you honestly think that Mexico would stand by and let millions of unskilled, uneducated and un-necessisary illegal aliens just stomp across it's boarder?

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zenfahr

Cops are not allowed to check your car without a warrant. They are allowed to look from the outside into your car but never conduct a full search. They trick you into giving up your rights so they can search your car. You can refuse if they ask to check your car, your house, anything you own. Just like you have the right to remain silent. Every person in the US is protected by all the amendments no matter if you are a citizen or not.

That really sounds good in written word. I would dare you to try to tell a cop that when he has you pulled over on the side of the road. They dont need a warrant to search your car, just probable cause.

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zenfahr

so all the millions of people in the US who don't speak english can be arrested? no that's not gonna work either.

I dont think you get the point here. Cops are not going to go out and profile every person they meet. Have you been to Arizona? This just means that when they do stop you, If you cant speak english, and if you fit the description, they can ask you for your papers. If you are a legal citizen, then you would have no issue. If you are here as a tourist, or for school, or on a work visa.... again no problem. But I do have to ask, are you concerned with having to show your papers?

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Lord Umbarger
That really sounds good in written word. I would dare you to try to tell a cop that when he has you pulled over on the side of the road. They dont need a warrant to search your car, just probable cause.
There are ways to prevent that... to a point. There are some really good videos, (many on YouTube for free), by an organisation that I can't remember the name of at the moment, that gives advice on how to handle being pulled over and how to avoid some warrentless searches. In either case though, if you have nothing to hide, (ie: Aren't breaking the law), there really isn't that much to be concerned with other than the fact that a cop is wasting his time on you rather than going after someone who might actually BE breaking the law.

The short version of it is,

Don't open the window all the way, just crack it enough to hand out the requested info.

If asked to get out of the vehicle, do so but, lock the car behind you and pocket your keys.

No matter how the request to search is phrased, just respond with "I do not give my concent to any searches".

Above all, don't yell, curse, threaten, or physically resist any instruction the cop gives you. Comply but, while doing so, state that you do not give your concent.

If you go to YouTube and search for "how to keep from being illegally searched", or some variation of that, you should find the videos that I'm talking about.

As always, I am NOT a lawyer, I will NOT be responcible for getting you out of jail, and I am NOT offering anyone legal advice. Read and know your local laws before you do anything. Even after watching the videos and taking notes, compare what they advise to your local laws and ordinances. Also, keep in minds that laws do change from time to time. It's YOUR butt, risk it in any manner YOU choose at YOUR descretion.

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Perdition

That really sounds good in written word. I would dare you to try to tell a cop that when he has you pulled over on the side of the road. They dont need a warrant to search your car, just probable cause.

No matter what Its down to you willing to give up your rights or not. Yes the cop can forcefully try to search your car and you are not allowed to stop him physically but you do have the right to take his badge number and bring it to court to say that he unlawfully searched your car without a warrant. The 4th amendment protects the rights of people in the us from unlawful search and seizure and this applies to everything you own and even yourself.

What some of you seem to be saying is that it is OK for officials to ID because you happen to be speaking a different language when they are close by. Since when is that not racial profiling? People are being FORCED to carry their papers, which takes away a persons right.

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lynxster

Why don`t we just copy Mexico`s immigration law:

Mexico has a single, streamlined law that ensures that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

- in the country legally;

- have the means to sustain themselves economically;

- not destined to be burdens on society;

- of economic and social benefit to society;

- of good character and have no criminal records; and

- contributors to the general well-being of the nation.

The law also ensures that:

- immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;

- foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;

- foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;

- foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;

- foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;

- those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.

Who could disagree with such a law? It makes perfect sense. The Mexican constitution strictly defines the rights of citizens -- and the denial of many fundamental rights to non-citizens, illegal and illegal. Under the constitution, the Ley General de Poblacion, or General Law on Population, spells out specifically the country's immigration policy.

Why is Mexico pushing the US to water down our own immigration laws and policies, when its own immigration restrictions are the toughest on the continent? If a felony is a crime punishable by more than one year in prison, then Mexican law makes it a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.

If the United States adopted such statutes, Mexico no doubt would denounce it as a manifestation of American racism and bigotry.

We looked at the immigration provisions of the Mexican constitution. Now let's look at Mexico's main immigration law.

Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

- Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

- Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)

- Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

- The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)

Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

- Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

- A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

- A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).

- Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

- Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)

- Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

- Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)

- Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)

- Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

- "A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)

- Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)

- Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

- A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

- Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

Yeah, why don`t we just adopt their immigration law?

:devil:

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Astute One

Cops are not allowed to check your car without a warrant. They are allowed to look from the outside into your car but never conduct a full search. They trick you into giving up your rights so they can search your car. You can refuse if they ask to check your car, your house, anything you own. Just like you have the right to remain silent. Every person in the US is protected by all the amendments no matter if you are a citizen or not.

Cops search cars all the time without a warrant. Many times they ask the car owner and he says, yes. Sometimes the cop searches without asking and stops when told he doesn't have permission. Sometimes the cop searches without permission and when told he doesn't have permission. Many times nothing is done about it. Usually when nothing is found and no arrest is made, there is no reason to complain.

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Astute One

so all the millions of people in the US who don't speak english can be arrested? no that's not gonna work either.

No, you are stretching it. That's no reason for arrest. It's probable cause to ask immigration questions. It works for me.

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Astute One

with this law they do in arizona.

The law mandates that immigrants “carry their alien registration documents at all times” and that police officers “question people” if there is “reason to suspect they’re in the United States illegally.”

Reason to suspect they're in the United States Illegally is probable cause.

This is no different than asking for someone's ID if they suspect someone of committing any crime.

So do you get it yet?

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zenfahr

No matter what Its down to you willing to give up your rights or not. Yes the cop can forcefully try to search your car and you are not allowed to stop him physically but you do have the right to take his badge number and bring it to court to say that he unlawfully searched your car without a warrant. The 4th amendment protects the rights of people in the us from unlawful search and seizure and this applies to everything you own and even yourself.

What some of you seem to be saying is that it is OK for officials to ID because you happen to be speaking a different language when they are close by. Since when is that not racial profiling? People are being FORCED to carry their papers, which takes away a persons right.

Nah that would be nuts and thats really taking it to the extreme.... There are a ton of people down here who speak another language including most of the cops. Many are also of mexican heritage. Which language do you think they are going to be questioned in? Not English. Its wrong to think that they are going to around questioning everyone they meet. But there are indicators that someone could be illegal besides the language. The problem we have in this country is that these people here cause trouble. If you come here to work and dont cause trouble, well you may be able to escape the system. But if you get caught gangbanging, or are found out in the desert crossing the border, well now we can hold you accountable for breaking our immigration laws as well. What we are telling them is IF you come over here and break our laws we will hold you accountable, as opposed to just sending you back home so you can try it again. You need to understand . . . Mexico is at war with the cartels... they are on the boarder and the violence is spilling over. I dont want people running over here to hide, nor do I want people sneaking over here to hunt someone down. Everyone in this country at one point or another has to prove that they are a citizen. You have too, or you cant work, cant drive, cant vote... etc. Its time for a no tolerance stance.

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Perdition

Nah that would be nuts and thats really taking it to the extreme.... There are a ton of people down here who speak another language including most of the cops. Many are also of mexican heritage. Which language do you think they are going to be questioned in? Not English. Its wrong to think that they are going to around questioning everyone they meet. But there are indicators that someone could be illegal besides the language. The problem we have in this country is that these people here cause trouble. If you come here to work and dont cause trouble, well you may be able to escape the system. But if you get caught gangbanging, or are found out in the desert crossing the border, well now we can hold you accountable for breaking our immigration laws as well. What we are telling them is IF you come over here and break our laws we will hold you accountable, as opposed to just sending you back home so you can try it again. You need to understand . . . Mexico is at war with the cartels... they are on the boarder and the violence is spilling over. I dont want people running over here to hide, nor do I want people sneaking over here to hunt someone down. Everyone in this country at one point or another has to prove that they are a citizen. You have too, or you cant work, cant drive, cant vote... etc. Its time for a no tolerance stance.

I understand where you are coming from and illegal immigration and border control need to be fixed, but by forcing everyone to carry ID is not the solution. Hitting the heart of why illegal immigrants are coming here is, such as work environment. The main reason why people were illegally crossing the borders is to find a job here and bring money back home. If employers stopped hiring illegals then what reasons would they have for staying here?

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zenfahr

The trick is getting the employers to stop hiring these people.... but when they only have to pay pennies on the dollar to do so, I cant see how we are going to be able to fix any problems. I have always said, we should have gone to war against Mexico rather than Iraq! You want to talk about a real and immediate threat against our country, just look south. If we could have gone in and liberated the Mexican people, institued work, pay, and living standards there i'm pretty sure most would go back home to their familias. And if not, who would care? They would be citizens, and would therefore have to pay taxes no matter where they lived just like everyone else. Im sure its not a popular opinion, but I think it would have been better for the country than the war we are currently fighting.

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DieChecker

Cops are not allowed to check your car without a warrant. They are allowed to look from the outside into your car but never conduct a full search. They trick you into giving up your rights so they can search your car. You can refuse if they ask to check your car, your house, anything you own. Just like you have the right to remain silent. Every person in the US is protected by all the amendments no matter if you are a citizen or not.

Like others have said Probable Cause trumps that. If a cop sees an open alcoholic container in your car, they can go right ahead and search it. I've seen people scream about "Their Rights" before, and usually they are actually wrong.

I'm not saying a cop can just pull someone over at random and check their trunk, but if they saw blood dripping or smoke or something they certainly then have probable cause.

I've seen the PC thing go too far here in Oregon. There is a law in Beaverton Oregon that is about Anti-Profiling. It says, generally, that if a percentage of minority persons have already gotten traffic tickets that month, equal to the community percentage of said minority, then no more tickets can be given to that minority type in that neighborhood till the percentages are more balanced. So, hypothetically, around the 15th of the month Hispanics can get pulled over several times, but never given a ticket... if they have already reached their percentage for the month.

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Astute One

Nah that would be nuts and thats really taking it to the extreme.... There are a ton of people down here who speak another language including most of the cops. Many are also of mexican heritage. Which language do you think they are going to be questioned in? Not English. Its wrong to think that they are going to around questioning everyone they meet. But there are indicators that someone could be illegal besides the language. The problem we have in this country is that these people here cause trouble. If you come here to work and dont cause trouble, well you may be able to escape the system. But if you get caught gangbanging, or are found out in the desert crossing the border, well now we can hold you accountable for breaking our immigration laws as well. What we are telling them is IF you come over here and break our laws we will hold you accountable, as opposed to just sending you back home so you can try it again. You need to understand . . . Mexico is at war with the cartels... they are on the boarder and the violence is spilling over. I dont want people running over here to hide, nor do I want people sneaking over here to hunt someone down. Everyone in this country at one point or another has to prove that they are a citizen. You have too, or you cant work, cant drive, cant vote... etc. Its time for a no tolerance stance.

That's funny, how come you are NOT ranting about the rights you lost when you were told to carry papers for proof of auto insurance. Only those who have autos are targeted with this one just like a group of people called immigrants are targeted to by being required to carry their proof of citizenship.

NO DIFFERENCE.

Edited by Astute One

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Lord Umbarger

Why don`t we just copy Mexico`s immigration law ..... Yeah, why don`t we just adopt their immigration law?

:devil:

Because, if we did that, we'd be racists! Just look at how they are already responding to the Arizona Immigration Law. (I posted a thread about this news story but, I'm posting a link HERE just to show the context of my statement).

Edited by Lord Umbarger

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