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Still Waters

Aborted baby boy survived for nearly two days

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eqgumby

now an unborn child is a parasite. is the baby of an animal that lays eggs also a parasite. what about animals that have life birth after said baby hatches from an egg inside of mom, such as the great white.

:blink:

Can we NOT go down the whole "A fetus is a parasite" road?

A Fetus provides a purpose and serves a function. It does not simply take from, it gives too.

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Luca-Rosemom 19

At 22 weeks you would begin to feel the baby moving inside. So that is very late to have an abortion done.

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Jack_of_Blades

now an unborn child is a parasite.

what about animals that have life birth after said baby hatches from an egg inside of mom, such as the great white.

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of." Of course an offspring provides towards the survival of the species, though. So partially, yes.

is the baby of an animal that lays eggs also a parasite.

Not by definition.

Of course, by your own definition, we shouldn't consider children or teenagers human...

After all, they're the basic equivalent of tapeworms until after college. Sometimes later.

Disagree, as both children and teenagers display independent thought and biological processes. Also biologically they are not. Though it stands to reason that finacially or emotionally they could be call "parasites". This is not the meaning I'm using though.

And, I'm pretty sure a tapeworm is a parasite. Slightly different than the offspring of someone.

Perhaps I should have found a different word than parasite. However it was the closest word I could think of.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the sarcasm just...slipped by me.

Don't feel too bad. I have a strange sense of humor. ^_^

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Perdition

Well if the fetus was diagnosed with disabilities then i guess its ok, better to live a short life than a long one with suffering.

I don't believe abortion should be used as a contraceptive, but practically everything else the woman has the choice to do what she wants with her own body.

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danielost

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of." Of course an offspring provides towards the survival of the species, though. So partially, yes.

Not by definition.

Disagree, as both children and teenagers display independent thought and biological processes. Also biologically they are not. Though it stands to reason that finacially or emotionally they could be call "parasites". This is not the meaning I'm using though.

Perhaps I should have found a different word than parasite. However it was the closest word I could think of.

Don't feel too bad. I have a strange sense of humor. ^_^

the mother of an egg has to provide the same food to a baby that a mother of live born does, perhaps not as long but it is still the same thing. the mother that lays an egg such as the great white doesnt provide food through its body for its baby when it hatches so the young eat each other, and the mother lays unfertilized eggs as well for it's young.

a tapeworm has independent, if somewhat limited, thinking than it's host does as do most of the parasites.

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Jack_of_Blades

the mother of an egg has to provide the same food to a baby that a mother of live born does, perhaps not as long but it is still the same thing. the mother that lays an egg such as the great white doesnt provide food through its body for its baby when it hatches so the young eat each other, and the mother lays unfertilized eggs as well for it's young.

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of."

a tapeworm has independent, if somewhat limited, thinking than it's host does as do most of the parasites

"display independent thought and biological processes"

Well if the fetus was diagnosed with disabilities then i guess its ok, better to live a short life than a long one with suffering.

I don't believe abortion should be used as a contraceptive, but practically everything else the woman has the choice to do what she wants with her own body.

:tu:

Edited by Jack_of_Blades

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Still Waters

"Baby that survived botched abortion was rejected for cleft lip and palate"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7652889/Baby-that-survived-botched-abortion-was-rejected-for-cleft-lip-and-palate.html

The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans revealed that the foetus had a cleft lip and palate, according to reports in the Italian media. The condition is treatable with surgery Quote

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Jack_of_Blades
"Baby that survived botched abortion was rejected for cleft lip and palate"

Okay now that's digusting.

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Queen in the North

"Baby that survived botched abortion was rejected for cleft lip and palate"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7652889/Baby-that-survived-botched-abortion-was-rejected-for-cleft-lip-and-palate.html

The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans revealed that the foetus had a cleft lip and palate, according to reports in the Italian media. The condition is treatable with surgery Quote

That's... well, wow.

I don't think you can really count that as a 'justified' abortion, no matter where you stand on abortion itself.

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Sweetpumper

"Baby that survived botched abortion was rejected for cleft lip and palate"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7652889/Baby-that-survived-botched-abortion-was-rejected-for-cleft-lip-and-palate.html

The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans revealed that the foetus had a cleft lip and palate, according to reports in the Italian media. The condition is treatable with surgery Quote

How heart-warming.

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__Kratos__

That's... well, wow.

I don't think you can really count that as a 'justified' abortion, no matter where you stand on abortion itself.

Why not? You can get abortion for anything. Just do it for the lulz or for a disabling condition.

The doctor is at fault here, not the woman. Even if the fetus had gotten help right away, the likely hood it would have survived outside the womb would be almost nonexistent at 5 and a half months into the term.

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Queen in the North

Why not? You can get abortion for anything. Just do it for the lulz or for a disabling condition.

The doctor is at fault here, not the woman. Even if the fetus had gotten help right away, the likely hood it would have survived outside the womb would be almost nonexistent at 5 and a half months into the term.

Indeed, the doctor is at fault, not the woman. Not saying abortion is wrong, bad, sin against God, none of that, just pointing out that originally it was brought across as an abortion for an (implied serious) medical condition.

The original article made rather a large point about the baby being aborted because it was disabled, and if I recall correctly, some people's arguments on this thread have been about the quality of life the baby (had it survived) would have had. Cleft palate is treatable...

Why didn't they just say it was an abortion, is what I was saying.

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Poopie

Point is we should abide by the consequences of our actions and take responsibility for our actions.... not simply extract and execute life due to inconvenience.

I would accept pro-choice under the those that were forcefully raped, but nothing else is an excuse.

Abortion is murder and is misused as a form of birth control by many women.....weather you believe or support pro-choice murder is murder.

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Godsnmbr1

"Baby that survived botched abortion was rejected for cleft lip and palate"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7652889/Baby-that-survived-botched-abortion-was-rejected-for-cleft-lip-and-palate.html

The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans revealed that the foetus had a cleft lip and palate, according to reports in the Italian media. The condition is treatable with surgery Quote

As if this wasn't sad enough...

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Startraveler
I would accept pro-choice under the those that were forcefully raped, but nothing else is an excuse.

Abortion is murder ...

This seems to be a fairly common sentiment but I'm not sure exactly what the logic is there. I tend to think it reinforces what I was arguing above: namely that abortion doesn't come down to a question of life but one of (social) personhood. Conceptions caused by rapes are not socially sanctioned and thus even many pro-life folks agree that we don't need to recognize rape-fetuses as persons with the associated rights. Hence their willingness to allow a rape exception to an otherwise black-and-white bedrock moral argument.

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Doc Socks Junior

This seems to be a fairly common sentiment but I'm not sure exactly what the logic is there. I tend to think it reinforces what I was arguing above: namely that abortion doesn't come down to a question of life but one of (social) personhood. Conceptions caused by rapes are not socially sanctioned and thus even many pro-life folks agree that we don't need to recognize rape-fetuses as persons with the associated rights. Hence their willingness to allow a rape exception to an otherwise black-and-white bedrock moral argument.

I think it comes down to a lesser of two evils argument. Because, based on what the law is now, something like that would be an improvement.

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Fluffybunny

I don't understand the rape argument. Is the fetus any more at fault in the situation? To have a hard and fast rule about the sanctity of human life (starting at conception as claimed by some), but then there is this spiritual mulligan for women who got slipped a micky and passed out at a party, or any such variation...it just seems strange to me to take a huge exception regarding the same human life that the rules applied to just moments earlier.

I can just imagine the argument that would occur over such an issue, where a woman wanting an abortion is picketed, called names, had her integrity ripped apart, looked down upon...then she lets slip that she was raped, and so many people go "oh well in that case, go right ahead...let me get the door for you..." tossing those babies rights that were so important seconds earlier.

I don't think that there is a hard line that can be drawn, but that is just my opinion. There are plenty of cases where I could see that it would be the best answer in a horrible situation. I think that it is pretty rare that abortions are used without thought or reflection like post coitus birth control like so many seem to think.

I also find it interesting that the same group of people who want to stop women from having abortions is often the same group that wants to do away with welfare and public assistance for the very same people. A woman who is all alone in the world, and in a horrible situation to begin with will end up needing support in the last period of their pregnancy...so either you are willing to support that part of the system, or be tolerant of the choice that can avoid it altogether...it is a bad situation, and not just black and white like so many seem to think.

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danielost

i think that the reason people are willing to look the other way on a rape case, is the emotions caused from the attack, which may be carried over to the child. i think tho if you dont want the baby for what ever reason give it up for adoption. some people who have been adopted have achieved a good life. some orphans have also achieved a good life.

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FurthurBB

Point is we should abide by the consequences of our actions and take responsibility for our actions.... not simply extract and execute life due to inconvenience.

I would accept pro-choice under the those that were forcefully raped, but nothing else is an excuse.

Abortion is murder and is misused as a form of birth control by many women.....weather you believe or support pro-choice murder is murder.

I am sorry, but, I do not at all agree. Abortion in the first trimester is nothing even akin to murder. I do not believe abortions should be performed after that unless there is a very serious reason. Although in some countries abortion is a common form of birth control, in others it is not the case at all.

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eqgumby

Point is we should abide by the consequences of our actions and take responsibility for our actions.... not simply extract and execute life due to inconvenience.

I would accept pro-choice under the those that were forcefully raped, but nothing else is an excuse.

Abortion is murder and is misused as a form of birth control by many women.....weather you believe or support pro-choice murder is murder.

I almost agree.

In teh event of catastrophic defects, I can see a fairly late-term abortion, as well as a personal choice if the mothers life is undeniably in jeapordy. There are SOME abortions I am against, some I am for, and some I remain silent on because i can't put myself in those shoes.

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eqgumby

I don't understand the rape argument. Is the fetus any more at fault in the situation? To have a hard and fast rule about the sanctity of human life (starting at conception as claimed by some), but then there is this spiritual mulligan for women who got slipped a micky and passed out at a party, or any such variation...it just seems strange to me to take a huge exception regarding the same human life that the rules applied to just moments earlier.

I can just imagine the argument that would occur over such an issue, where a woman wanting an abortion is picketed, called names, had her integrity ripped apart, looked down upon...then she lets slip that she was raped, and so many people go "oh well in that case, go right ahead...let me get the door for you..." tossing those babies rights that were so important seconds earlier.

I don't think that there is a hard line that can be drawn, but that is just my opinion. There are plenty of cases where I could see that it would be the best answer in a horrible situation. I think that it is pretty rare that abortions are used without thought or reflection like post coitus birth control like so many seem to think.

I also find it interesting that the same group of people who want to stop women from having abortions is often the same group that wants to do away with welfare and public assistance for the very same people. A woman who is all alone in the world, and in a horrible situation to begin with will end up needing support in the last period of their pregnancy...so either you are willing to support that part of the system, or be tolerant of the choice that can avoid it altogether...it is a bad situation, and not just black and white like so many seem to think.

I hear you...BUT...if a real rape victim chooses something akin to the morning-after pill, I just can not blame them. If a rape victim gets an abortion at 5 months...they have issues.

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Startraveler

I hear you...BUT...if a real rape victim chooses something akin to the morning-after pill, I just can not blame them. If a rape victim gets an abortion at 5 months...they have issues.

But if one follows the "potential life" train of thought, even something like the morning after pill ought to be seen as akin to murder.

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danielost

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of."

"display independent thought and biological processes"

:tu:

a tapeworm can actually keep a person healthy under the right circumstances. the story goes that a doctor in england ate one once then went on a round the world trip. he supposedly ate the foulist and filthist stuff he could find. he didnt get sick, when he got home and removed the worm it was like 32 feet long.

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Doc Socks Junior

But if one follows the "potential life" train of thought, even something like the morning after pill ought to be seen as akin to murder.

Well, yes. But an extremely more limited form of murder (in the case of pregnancy caused by rape) which is the main point.

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eqgumby

But if one follows the "potential life" train of thought, even something like the morning after pill ought to be seen as akin to murder.

True, but there has to be (in my mind) a cut-off point. Taken to it's extreme, you have a scrotum full of potential of life (assuming you're a male), and should be chastised for spilling it in anything other than a potentially fertile vagina. See what I mean? :innocent:

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