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Still Waters

Aborted baby boy survived for nearly two days

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eqgumby

Well, yes. But an extremely more limited form of murder (in the case of pregnancy caused by rape) which is the main point.

That's another can of worms, isn't it? "Limited form of murder...". Seems absurd. If you say, "I am going to kill *insert human here*" and make plans to do so, that is essentially first degree murder. This is why the anti-abortion extremists are against the morning after pill as well as virtually all forms of abortion.

The debate ends up being, WHEN is that group of cells that is going to be a baby, actually defined as "human".

When a sperm penetrates an egg, BOOM! Something happens. That moment, something that is uniquely destined to be come a human has started, has been created, be it by God or nature. At that moment, that thing, that group of cells, has no purpose other than to become a living breathing human. It may NOT, again be it God or nature causing the cells to stop growing, to mutate, to do whatever! We just don't know. That's the extreme side of the argument.

Now I have a hard time accepting the above argument as being the final word on the topic. And I don't think the "it's my body" argument is valid, because it's a choice your making for MORE than just you. To think so is the pinnacle of conceit.

I can see a very compelling anti-abortion argument, but rationally, I know when you inject humanity into the equation, it becomes way more complex than I can fathom.

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Jack_of_Blades

a tapeworm can actually keep a person healthy under the right circumstances. the story goes that a doctor in england ate one once then went on a round the world trip. he supposedly ate the foulist and filthist stuff he could find. he didnt get sick, when he got home and removed the worm it was like 32 feet long.

Okay.... what does that have to do with anything that I posted?

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of."

How many more times do I really need to post this?

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Torgo

So they try to abort, it fails, and after just 20 hours they try to save it in the ICU?

Does anyone else see the insanity in this?

There is no substantive difference between when the attempted abortion took place and when the baby was put in the ICU. None. The justifications for late-term abortions are built upon such inconsistencies and absurdities... I can at least understand the arguments in favor of early term abortions even if I for the most part do not agree with them, but if you are trying to abort something that if it is outside the mother you try valiantly to save, your cognitive dissonance is astounding.

Edited by Torgo

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Startraveler

Well, yes. But an extremely more limited form of murder (in the case of pregnancy caused by rape) which is the main point.

I want to make sure I've got this right:

  • You agree that at least some forms of emergency contraception are a form of murder.
  • The nature of the sex (i.e. consensual or not), however, affects the degree to which taking emergency contraception is murder.

Is that correct?

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Doc Socks Junior

I want to make sure I've got this right:

  • You agree that at least some forms of emergency contraception are a form of murder.
  • The nature of the sex (i.e. consensual or not), however, affects the degree to which taking emergency contraception is murder.

Is that correct?

Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is murder in a more limited scope. Less murder, is better.

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pbarosso

justification for the killing of an innocent defenseless human is about the sickest thing i can think of. tells us how sick our society is.

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Murrangurk

I'm amazed how many gullible pro-lifers have been sucked in by this bogus, hyped up, biased drivel. Is this the UM forums, or A Current Affair?

Grow up and stop whipping yourselves into indignant frenzies. The world has ACTUAL, REAL issues that need action. Focus your nonsense on those.

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Queen in the North

I can at least understand the arguments in favor of early term abortions even if I for the most part do not agree with them, but if you are trying to abort something that if it is outside the mother you try valiantly to save, your cognitive dissonance is astounding.

I agree, completely.

I'm amazed how many gullible pro-lifers have been sucked in by this bogus, hyped up, biased drivel. Is this the UM forums, or A Current Affair?

Grow up and stop whipping yourselves into indignant frenzies. The world has ACTUAL, REAL issues that need action. Focus your nonsense on those.

I assume by "ACTUAL, REAL" issues you mean poverty, climate change et al? Because from the way you mentioned UM in the previous line, one could take that to mean that you value UFO sightings and conspiracy theories as more important than a child surviving a late-term abortion and then being left to die, and the factors which allowed this situation to arise?

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eqgumby

Okay.... what does that have to do with anything that I posted?

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of."

How many more times do I really need to post this?

Are you trying to justify abortion by saying a fetus is a parasite until it is born? Or does it reach non-parasite status after it's weened and can perform some useful function in society, say at about a year or two years old? Would that qualify a 3 month old baby for some form of "retroactive abortion"?

Please enlighten us.

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Jack_of_Blades

Are you trying to justify abortion by saying a fetus is a parasite until it is born? Or does it reach non-parasite status after it's weened and can perform some useful function in society, say at about a year or two years old? Would that qualify a 3 month old baby for some form of "retroactive abortion"?

Please enlighten us.

I will enlighten: I used the word "parasite" (as I've explained) because I couldn't think of any other

derogatory word to tack onto "glob of cells". I admit (as I have already) that I was putting a square

block into a rectangle hole. Then daniel brought up wether or not an animal that is developed

outside of the body of the mother is a parasite, I replied no with this post:

""An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of." Of course an offspring provides towards the survival of the species, though. So partially, yes"

I'm not justifing calling a baby a parasite; nor am I in some wierd position claiming babies are detrimental to our species. I'm only justifing my use of the word in the given context.

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eqgumby

I will enlighten: I used the word "parasite" (as I've explained) because I couldn't think of any other

derogatory word to tack onto "glob of cells". I admit (as I have already) that I was putting a square

block into a rectangle hole. Then daniel brought up wether or not an animal that is developed

outside of the body of the mother is a parasite, I replied no with this post:

""An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of." Of course an offspring provides towards the survival of the species, though. So partially, yes"

I'm not justifing calling a baby a parasite; nor am I in some wierd position claiming babies are detrimental to our species. I'm only justifing my use of the word in the given context.

OK, no sweat.

I've actually heard that argument before...that a fetus, at some point, is just a parasite...from a woman no less...it rather stuns me.

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Torgo

I feel compelled to add that the only time one can consider an embryo to be a "blob of cells" is before roughly 2-3 weeks post fertilization. After that point you get neurolation and the formation of the body axis and neural tube, which quickly progresses to forming the rudiments of all body structures and organs. Weather that organism is deserving of human rights is a separate question from what it is; people should at least get their embryology straight.

Edited by Torgo

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HerNibs

OK, no sweat.

I've actually heard that argument before...that a fetus, at some point, is just a parasite...from a woman no less...it rather stuns me.

*waves hand*

Agrees. Me. Mother of 4.

Fetus. It's a parasite. Until it can survive (be viable) outside of the womb, it's a parasite.

ETA _ Ok, same species but still a parasite.

In the most literal definition - Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

Main Entry: vi·a·ble

Pronunciation: \ˈvī-ə-bəl\

Function: adjective

Etymology: French, from Middle French, from vie life, from Latin vita — more at vital

Date: circa 1832

1 : capable of living; especially : having attained such form and development as to be normally capable of surviving outside the mother's womb <a viable fetus>

2 : capable of growing or developing <viable seeds> <viable eggs>

3 a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

I am strongly pro-choice and even more strongly against late term abortions.

First trimester is what I feel is a reasonable limit. (IMO)

Nibs

Edited by HerNibs

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eqgumby

*waves hand*

Agrees. Me. Mother of 4.

Fetus. It's a parasite. Until it can survive (be viable) outside of the womb, it's a parasite.

ETA _ Ok, same species but still a parasite.

In the most literal definition - Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

Main Entry: vi·a·ble

Pronunciation: \ˈvī-ə-bəl\

Function: adjective

Etymology: French, from Middle French, from vie life, from Latin vita — more at vital

Date: circa 1832

1 : capable of living; especially : having attained such form and development as to be normally capable of surviving outside the mother's womb <a viable fetus>

2 : capable of growing or developing <viable seeds> <viable eggs>

3 a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

I am strongly pro-choice and even more strongly against late term abortions.

First trimester is what I feel is a reasonable limit. (IMO)

Nibs

:lol:

Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

I'm sorry, but anthropologically speaking, and evolutionarily speaking, it's just not a parasite. It may feel like it, may behave like it, but there would be no natural drive to protect a "parasite", as there is a natural drive to protect ones offspring.

I get it, but it's far from any argument for abortion, that's all I'm saying.

And if it WAS a parasite, it would STILL be a parasite at birth, and for a long time thereafter. At what point do we say, "OK, you're officially NOT a parasite and qualify as a human and we can't kill you because we don't want you or you're a burden"?

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danielost

the doctors basically took this new born baby and dumped in a trash can thinking he would die in a couple of minutes. and this is ok with the pro-choice crowd. the same group that is against the death penilty, no matter the crime.

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Jack_of_Blades

the doctors basically took this new born baby and dumped in a trash can thinking he would die in a couple of minutes. and this is ok with the pro-choice crowd. the same group that is against the death penilty, no matter the crime.

I think the difference is how the person views death. I personally view death as a part

of life and the easy way out. As such being put in a 6x8 sell for the rest of my life is

FAAAAAAAR more terrifing than any form of death. Death isn't a punishment, it's an

escape route.

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HerNibs

:lol:

Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

I'm sorry, but anthropologically speaking, and evolutionarily speaking, it's just not a parasite. It may feel like it, may behave like it, but there would be no natural drive to protect a "parasite", as there is a natural drive to protect ones offspring.

I get it, but it's far from any argument for abortion, that's all I'm saying.

And if it WAS a parasite, it would STILL be a parasite at birth, and for a long time thereafter. At what point do we say, "OK, you're officially NOT a parasite and qualify as a human and we can't kill you because we don't want you or you're a burden"?

:P

Ah, natural drive to protect my offspring? Nope. Not offspring until birth. :) No urge to protect the parasite until MUCH later in the pregnancy. At least personally. I don't think we are all that conditioned about our offspring, especially in utero. I'll have to look into it but I'm not sure it's all that instinctual.

At birth it is viable. Until then (not necessarily birth) nope, parasite. There is no mutual benefit in the first trimester. There is no way the fetus can survive away from the host (mother).

How isn't it a parasite?

Once viable, it cannot be destroyed or killed any more than any other living human being may be killed just due to it's very existence.

Nibs

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danielost

I think the difference is how the person views death. I personally view death as a part

of life and the easy way out. As such being put in a 6x8 sell for the rest of my life is

FAAAAAAAR more terrifing than any form of death. Death isn't a punishment, it's an

escape route.

so it ok to give a woman an easy way out, an escape route.

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HerNibs

so it ok to give a woman an easy way out, an escape route.

Easy way out? Unlike the man who has to carry the baby...no wait..

Escape route?

Please explain.

Nibs

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Superglobe

I honestly have very little opinions on abortion as an issue, I'm not female, it doesn't concern me.

However, this seems awfully late-term for an abortion. I thought the cutoff was 20 weeks?

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HerNibs

I honestly have very little opinions on abortion as an issue, I'm not female, it doesn't concern me.

However, this seems awfully late-term for an abortion. I thought the cutoff was 20 weeks?

It varies from state to state. I believe the majority of states do not allow late term abortions.

Nibs

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Startraveler
and this is ok with the pro-choice crowd. the same group that is against the death penilty, no matter the crime.

I don't oppose the death penalty. Not on any sort of moral grounds, anyway. I do think that the numbers suggest the death penalty is often considerably more expensive than the alternative (e.g. life imprisonment), which implies to me that if one were to sit down and do a cost-benefit analysis on the subject one would find it isn't worth the cost. But that argument is unrelated to this subject.

Perhaps a more consistent example would be assisted suicide. I believe a person ought to have the right to die at a time and by a method of their choosing, with professional help if they so desire. That's a choice anyone should be allowed to make. In the case of an unborn child that's biologically dependent on the mother for life, I think the responsibility for such a decision naturally falls to her. Decisions about her own life and death should be in her hands and this naturally implies that decisions about the life of her unborn child should be in her hands.

Edited by Startraveler

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danielost

I don't oppose the death penalty. Not on any sort of moral grounds, anyway. I do think that the numbers suggest the death penalty is often considerably more expensive than the alternative (e.g. life imprisonment), which implies to me that if one were to sit down and do a cost-benefit analysis on the subject one would find it isn't worth the cost. But that argument is unrelated to this subject.

Perhaps a more consistent example would be assisted suicide. I believe a person ought to have the right to die at a time and by a method of their choosing, with professional help if they so desire. That's a choice anyone should be allowed to make. In the case of an unborn child that's biologically dependent on the mother for life, I think the responsibility for such a decision naturally falls to her. Decisions about her own life and death should be in her hands and this naturally implies that decisions about the life of her unborn child should be in her hands.

sorry assisted suicide is not the same as an abortion. the person receaving the help to die has a choice, the aborted child does not. this brings it back to the death penilty. the death penilty is a discourgement for others to commit crime ie murder 1st degree.

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FurthurBB

the doctors basically took this new born baby and dumped in a trash can thinking he would die in a couple of minutes. and this is ok with the pro-choice crowd. the same group that is against the death penilty, no matter the crime.

You think pro choice people are all against the death penalty? Ridiculous!! I know many that are very much for the death penalty. I am not for the death penalty except for crimes against humanity. For everything else it is ineffective at preventing crime, it sends the wrong message, and only serves as retribution. Now, as far as this situation I do not think any abortions should be performed after 12 weeks so it looks like your assumptions are just wrong all around.

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FurthurBB

sorry assisted suicide is not the same as an abortion. the person receaving the help to die has a choice, the aborted child does not. this brings it back to the death penilty. the death penilty is a discourgement for others to commit crime ie murder 1st degree.

There are no aborted children.

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