How do I invite evil spirits to my home?

[White Crane Feather]

Wow xingwi, you are a passionate man. I'm not being dishonest, I'm not on a high horse, I'm not a prophet. In traditional societies there would have been Somone like you or I in each group. You are the one claiming absolute knowledge of these things not I. Your useless Illogical philibustering style attacks just make you look silly.

All the other ranting aside, you think demons exist because people say they have seen them in the astral, and probably because a book tells you they are. Well lots of people have seen big foot aswell, turns out mpost encounters were probably just bears, and big foot is in books aswell. It's called misinterpretation. If you are whereing fear goggles when you transition into the altered states that's how you inturprete other things. I work through this with people all the time. And soon as people learn control any hint of negativity drys up. That's real evidence that what people are seeing is just extensions of themselves. The rest of the fear mongering is unnecessary. This is also why evil dosnt exist in spirit. Evil intentions are not just chosen choices, they are results of fear. People do what we call evil acts based on some sort of fear based psychology. I have got news for you xingwi, spirits are not human. That are not subject to our petty psychological problems. The altered states/spirit world/astral can only be navigated once there is no fear otherwise the creative force of your being manifests all sorts of blocks. In my experience it's like gravity it's a rule. Only beings that conquer their fear can operate intelligibly. Evil beings might as well be called fear beings. If the exist they would be wallowing their own hell... Indeed that's what humans do when they cross the vail mired in their their fear... They create all manner of evil preditor.

I do believe god is a uninversal conciousness and all other consciousnesses merely extensions of it. in his context, there is only one mind and your demons are extensions of yourself, and yes so are spirit guides/angels. I'm also open to the possibility that we are children, babies, and it's our job to rise above and mature by shedding things like fear based thinking. I'm a pretty practical guy despite all the flying around with spirits stuff, so anything is possible, but it's a standard part of my personality to have to have reasons to believe in things. Evil entires just don't hold up to any kind of scrutanty.... Scientific, metaphysical, logical, and philisophical.

There is no boogie man under our beds my friend, if you want to live your life believing that and scareing people go ahead, but I will continue to speak up.

To each their own then.

[XingWi]

Wow xingwi, you are a passionate man. I'm not being dishonest, I'm not on a high horse, I'm not a prophet. In traditional societies there would have been Somone like you or I in each group. You are the one claiming absolute knowledge of these things not I. Your useless Illogical philibustering style attacks just make you look silly.

All the other ranting aside, you think demons exist because people say they have seen them in the astral, and probably because a book tells you they are. Well lots of people have seen big foot aswell, turns out mpost encounters were probably just bears, and big foot is in books aswell. It's called misinterpretation. If you are whereing fear goggles when you transition into the altered states that's how you inturprete other things. I work through this with people all the time. And soon as people learn control any hint of negativity drys up. That's real evidence that what people are seeing is just extensions of themselves. The rest of the fear mongering is unnecessary. This is also why evil dosnt exist in spirit. Evil intentions are not just chosen choices, they are results of fear. People do what we call evil acts based on some sort of fear based psychology. I have got news for you xingwi, spirits are not human. That are not subject to our petty psychological problems. The altered states/spirit world/astral can only be navigated once there is no fear otherwise the creative force of your being manifests all sorts of blocks. In my experience it's like gravity it's a rule. Only beings that conquer their fear can operate intelligibly. Evil beings might as well be called fear beings. If the exist they would be wallowing their own hell... Indeed that's what humans do when they cross the vail mired in their their fear... They create all manner of evil preditor.

I do believe god is a uninversal conciousness and all other consciousnesses merely extensions of it. in his context, there is only one mind and your demons are extensions of yourself, and yes so are spirit guides/angels. I'm also open to the possibility that we are children, babies, and it's our job to rise above and mature by shedding things like fear based thinking. I'm a pretty practical guy despite all the flying around with spirits stuff, so anything is possible, but it's a standard part of my personality to have to have reasons to believe in things. Evil entires just don't hold up to any kind of scrutanty.... Scientific, metaphysical, logical, and philisophical.

There is no boogie man under our beds my friend, if you want to live your life believing that and scareing people go ahead, but I will continue to speak up.

To each their own then.

Evasive tactics, again. You haven't responded to any of my questions in post#1825 and instead you sidestep by saying its all "illogical filibustering". It is long because I tried to respond to all of your claims and queries. It is not "filibustering".

Should I assume it is a cop out, then? Seeker?

You are making a straw man argument here. Read my post again. I said I can make a good case following your own logic. If you think that you (alone) with your subjective experience can make a good case then why can't those astral travelers, most of whom are far more "well versed" than what you claim yourself to be, make a good case. Why can't your subjective experience be a "misinterpretation", tell me? Those travelers have not just seen them but interacted with them and realized their nature. I also said "irrespective of their religious beliefs" (whether they "fear" demons or not?). If you expect me to accept that you "made a good case" with your subjective experience then as per your own rule you will have to accept that the combined experiences of so many travelers will make a better case. All this, following your own logic.

Besides, building over your own claims, when you agree that your spirits have free will then why don't you accept the possibility that at least some of them can be malevolent? Can you see your self-contradiction here?

I don't think demons exist because people say they have seen them. I have my own experiences as my own evidence for me because I know what I experienced and because I know that it is illogical to assume that out of countless free willed astral beings none can be malevolent.

Sorry, but you started all this. I gave you a chance to move on but you refused.

You can take your own time if you want to, take a day or two or a week or more, but I expect your reponse for all my questions in post#1825.

I will enjoy my holidays until then.

Thank you.

[XingWi]

Although it is fun to mess with you once in a while and watch your reaction.

Seeker79, what's the significance of "79" in your display name?

79 synonyms of satan

Relax! it's just a joke!

[_Only]

That is exactly what an eastern school says about astral projection. Yet it is only a belief. There are so many variations so many interpretations that you cannot claim the authority of one school of thought over the other. But if you will ever have a full conscious astral experience you will be compelled to believe that it is something not limited to your mind, it is something that extends outside its realms. Even if you are a skeptic you will be compelled to rely at least on the universal consciousness theory if you don't admit that there are real beings in the astral plane. For many, the experience is not dream like but far more real, in fact more real than physical world itself.

When saying a trip into the mind, I wasn't implying that it wasn't real, but the opposite. Sometimes I assume everyone already is on the same page with what I think, but I was far from getting to the idea that anything 'from the mind' is at all limiting. I am under the opposite belief. The mind is everything. I am under the belief that what goes on in the mind is more real than the physical 3 dimensional world here; this world being just one dream of many.

[buckskin scout]

That is exactly what an eastern school says about astral projection. Yet it is only a belief. There are so many variations so many interpretations that you cannot claim the authority of one school of thought over the other. But if you will ever have a full conscious astral experience you will be compelled to believe that it is something not limited to your mind, it is something that extends outside its realms. Even if you are a skeptic you will be compelled to rely at least on the universal consciousness theory if you don't admit that there are real beings in the astral plane. For many, the experience is not dream like but far more real, in fact more real than physical world itself.

Presently, both Seeker79 and I believe that the spirits we came across were not just the constructs of our minds and that has, admittedly, put both of us in a very vulnerable position. As Seeker79 has rightly said, from a skeptic's viewpoint both of us are freaks.

But here is a question I want to pose, astral plane is it internalized or externalized experience?

A skeptic can retort, ah you are just lucidly dreaming Seeker79? Or some such argument?

Due to my personal experiences, I am astonished you do not believe evil entities or negative spirits exist. I am absolutely astonished. But my undeniable proof can not be shared with others per se.

[White Crane Feather]

But here is a question I want to pose, astral plane is it internalized or externalized experience?

A skeptic can retort, ah you are just lucidly dreaming Seeker79? Or some such argument?

Due to my personal experiences, I am astonished you do not believe evil entities or negative spirits exist. I am absolutely astonished. But my undeniable proof can not be shared with others per se.

It's both ambush bug. All experiences are internal and some are external and internal. There is no such thing as a purely external experience. Here in lies the problem. We all psycologically taint our experiences. In an altered state of conciousness this is compounded 30 fold.

Yes indeed the skeptics do. But lucid dreams happen during rem. the rem cycle takes 90 minutes to start. It's not dreaming as we define dreaming. If a skeptic wants a label, the skeptic would call the journey and induced sustained hypnagogic trance.

Indeed that's all we have here is our personal experiences, and do to mine I cannot. I heave encountered "evil spirts" before, and I keep a detailed journal. One representation of a type of evil spirit I see is related to the flu. I see them just before my kids get sick or a flue sweeps through my family. It's my interpretation of something that I am aware of on a deeper level. We are just visual beings we have to construct images for everything we become aware of. Another might think the "evil spirit" is causing the sickness, I am well aware corolation problems with assumptions like that. All other encounters, I have learned to refocus my mind channel psychological fear away from me and realize that altered state imagery is a visual construct of things that are not even in physical reality. In essence you have to learn to master your self, and not let sponsoring emotions and instincts control you. This frees you from reacting to stressors that cause you to inturpret things as "demons". Do you remember when NEO in the Matrix held up his hand and stopped the bullets. He finally realized that nothing is as it seems, intellectually he knew it, but had not integrated it until that moment. Then his mind opened, and he could see the matrix for what it really was.

This is reminiscent of when the Buddha faced the demon hords of Mara and over came them.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)

It's also a common theme in almost all heroic journies. Part of the heros journey is often a decent into hell then a rebirth haveing conquered it, in shaminism it is the shamanic crisis.

Educate yourself, meditate, allow your thoughts deep self reflection, surrender your self to the great spirit. Demons will evaporate.

This is an interesting discussion

"Mara's most effective weapon is sustaining a climate of fear, whether the fear be of drought or famine or cancer or terrorism. Identifying with a desire or fear tightens the knot that binds one to it, and, thereby, the sway it can have over one."

"In the course of the Buddha's Enlightenment it is stressed that he overcame ignorance and darkness, conceptions which are also used prominently in connection with Mara's activities. Both are readily associated with the capacity to blind men, in terms of confusing their understanding."

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/mara.html

I don't think we are here to struggle against evil, ambush bug, we are here to struggle against ourselves.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Seeker79

[_Only]

Due to my personal experiences, I am astonished you do not believe evil entities or negative spirits exist. I am absolutely astonished. But my undeniable proof can not be shared with others per se.

Because it's perception. I'd be willing to bet 4 dollars that you two could see the same being or event, and not see and describe it in the same way.

Edited December 20, 2012 by _Only

[Kazahel]

Yes indeed the skeptics do. But lucid dreams happen during rem. the rem cycle takes 90 minutes to start. It's not dreaming as we define dreaming. If a skeptic wants a label, the skeptic would call the journey and induced sustained hypnagogic trance.

Just quickly so other people know. It only takes about 90mins the first time you fall asleep inorder to go into REM stage sleep. After that going into REM stage sleep gets quicker and in the mornings you can get into REM stage sleep very fast. So for people who might not know, this is when you wake up in the mornings and you just know as soon as you shut your eyes again you'll go back to sleep and into a dream very quickly. So it can take only a few moments/minutes to get back into REM.

Which is why I believe if anyone is trying to OBE in the mornings its most likely going to occur during REM stage sleep.

Seeker79, when do you usually OBE?

[White Crane Feather]

Just quickly so other people know. It only takes about 90mins the first time you fall asleep inorder to go into REM stage sleep. After that going into REM stage sleep gets quicker and in the mornings you can get into REM stage sleep very fast. So for people who might not know, this is when you wake up in the mornings and you just know as soon as you shut your eyes again you'll go back to sleep and into a dream very quickly. So it can take only a few moments/minutes to get back into REM.

Which is why I believe if anyone is trying to OBE in the mornings its most likely going to occur during REM stage sleep.

Seeker79, when do you usually OBE?

At night. Though I do occasionally in the morning. My favorite though is in the afternoon, I just don't do it that much.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Seeker79

[Order66]

The evil spirits feed on negative energy. If their presence is not unwanted to you and causes you no anxiety, then there is no negative energy for them to feed on and hence no reason for them to be there.

[White Crane Feather]

The evil spirits feed on negative energy. If their presence is not unwanted to you and causes you no anxiety, then there is no negative energy for them to feed on and hence no reason for them to be there.

What is negative energy? How exactly do they feed on it?

Isnt it more likely that negative emotions are causing negative manifestations?

Edited December 20, 2012 by Seeker79

[Kazahel]

At night. Though I do occasionally in the morning. My favorite though is in the afternoon, I just don't do it that much.

Do you mind if I post a small quote from a PM because that is not what you have told me before?

Edited December 20, 2012 by Kazahel

[White Crane Feather]

Do you mind if I post a small quote from a PM because that is not what you have told me before?

I see your at it again. Go right ahead. Lately it's always at night. And here I thought you and I could have a normal conversation. You are welcome to check my blogs I usually post roughly what time I enter trance.

I'm sure if you look hard enough you might be able to convince yourself of some other inconsistency.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's experiences through lucid dreaming. I think it can be done both ways. The ways that I do it are more closely realated to sleep paralysis and hypnagogia. lucid dreams to me are of an entirely different quality than OOBEs. I have both, I dream all the time.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Seeker79

[Kazahel]

I see your at it again. Go right ahead. Lately it's always at night. And here I thought you and I could have a normal conversation.

Yes I do tend to question things in life. And what is normal? You mean hows the weather? Anyway..

The process I use for OBEs is this.

1) relax ( usually in the morning)

2) use a meditation that holds awareness

3) continue until vibrations start. ( this is a feeling of mild electric shock all over the body )

4) lift one arm then exit from my body by floating or by just getting up.

There is never a break in concousness. You do not fall asleep. It's hard to call something a dream when you know you did not fall asleep. It's also right away.

And this is why I told you in PM that what you are most likely doing is called a WILD technique. And if you focus on the body you could potentially create that experience. You later replied with this..

But you don't have to do it in the morning it can be done at night to. It's just that your tired at night and more likely to fall asleep.The first indications of sleep are areas of hypnogogia. See the link. Dreams do not have to occure in rem, but most do and rem Starts about 90 minutes into the cycle. All wild techniques involve entering the dream/visions imeadiatly. I gave done it nearly instantly before.

So I was never sure here if you meant instantly in the mornings which is understandable because you are closer to REM or if you meant instantly at night. But if it was so instant and easy at night you would not fall asleep. Or is it that at night it takes longer.

Anyway of course I realise that I guess you now change your ways and do it more at night. I expected that. Fair enough.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Kazahel

[White Crane Feather]

Yes I do tend to question things in life. And what is normal? You mean hows the weather? Anyway..

And this is why I told you in PM that what you are most likely doing is called a WILD technique. And if you focus on the body you could potentially create that experience. You later replied with this..

So I was never sure here if you meant instantly in the mornings which is understandable because you are closer to REM or if you meant instantly at night. But if it was so instant and easy at night you would not fall asleep. Or is it that at night it takes longer.

Anyway of course I realise that I guess you now change your ways and do it more at night. I expected that. Fair enough.

If you don't believe me check my blogs man, that seems to be what your into. there are some in the morning and mostly lately at night. I really don't find the need to journey anymore unless there is a reason.

Look I don't want to argue with you anymore, I. Sorry you feel like I'm a fraud.

What little research has been done eeg wise on people like me ( that I can find anyway), seems to sugest it's not at happening during normal rem. that's all. And since I have dropped into trance in the afternoon before nearly instantly I tend to think its not a rem cycle. I have also just recently been able to accomplish it in a pure posture upright meditative position after a work out. Now, it's entirely possible that my brain is trained to slip into REM stages very fast, but there is no way to know that unless I'm in a MRI machine or hooked to an EEG. I'm working on makeing this happen some day as we speak.

[Kazahel]

If you don't believe me check my blogs man, that seems to be what your into. there are some in the morning and mostly lately at night. I really don't find the need to journey anymore unless there is a reason.

Look I don't want to argue with you anymore, I. Sorry you feel like I'm a fraud.

Please dont post lies. I told you only the other day in PM that I never read anyones blogs unless the the poster has placed a link to it as if it is a form of evidence. I actually have the blog section down the right side crossed out so I dont see it. And its not about being a fraud. I was suggesting that maybe because you were usually OBEing in the morning(and using a WILD technique) that you could be easily falling into REM stage sleep and creating the experience of out of body from simply having that as a goal running through your mind. So above when you said to everyone that REM takes 90mins I wanted people to know that this is not always the case. It can take only moments sometimes.

What little research has been done eeg wise on people like me ( that I can find anyway), seems to sugest it's not at happening during normal rem. that's all. And since I have dropped into trance in the afternoon before nearly instantly I tend to think its not a rem cycle. I have also just recently been able to accomplish it in a pure posture upright meditative position after a work out. Now, it's entirely possible that my brain is trained to slip into REM stages very fast, but there is no way to know that unless I'm in a MRI machine or hooked to an EEG. I'm working on makeing this happen some day as we speak.

Yes but we went over that before and there was some REM in that research. These are just snippets below from long links you gave me.

][/b]Monroe had some alphoid activity, but not the large amount Miss Z showed. He also showed REMs in his second OBEwhere he reported seeing a stranger with the technician.

The EEG prior to the Monroe’s reported OBE may be roughly classified as a borderline or hypnagogic state, a stage 1 pattern containing instances of alphoid activity rhythm (indicative of drowsiness) and theta activity (a normal sleeping pattern, part of stage 1). This pattern persisted through the first OBE, but was accompanied by a sudden fall of systolic blood pressure lasting seven seconds, this being roughly equivalent to Monroe’s estimated length of his OBE. There was REM activity of an ambiguous nature during this period.

The second OBE was reported after a period of EEG shifting between stage 1 and stage 2 sleep. This second OBE’s exact duration is unknown, but appears to have been accompanied by a similar stage 1 pattern, and only two instances of isolated REM activity near the end

So the first OBE is only seven seconds.. and had some REM. I think thats how that reads anyway. And the second one they dont know how long it was(so it couldve been less than seven seconds..) and there was isolated REM near the end. And the end might have been when he had his three second OBE.. Anyway this is just another reason I'm not really a fan of Monroe and dated scientific study. I personally think Monroe just wanted to sell books and the mysteroius miss Z section to all this would not count in todays scientific community imo. So I would not call miss Z 'wise'. I think miss Z was a fraud and a tool to sell a book back in the days of hippies tripping out over such wonderful new age concepts.

Anyway that aside I do agree there has been very little modern research done and more needs to be done. Thats why I sit on the fence and suggest to people like you that maybe the morning OBEs which you usually did before... was slipping into REM. And people can dream very quickly during the afternoons too. I know if I sleep in the arvo I can slip into a dream within maybe 10/20mins, they are different feeling dreams though and not so heavy, so it might not be normal REM but I think it must have traces of REM. And people can dream in non REM stage sleep. Anyway like we both agree, I guess we wont know for sure until more research is done.

I think we have gone off topic now though. Sorry about that Sakari.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Kazahel

[buckskin scout]

It's both ambush bug. All experiences are internal and some are external and internal. There is no such thing as a purely external experience. Here in lies the problem. We all psycologically taint our experiences. In an altered state of conciousness this is compounded 30 fold.

Yes indeed the skeptics do. But lucid dreams happen during rem. the rem cycle takes 90 minutes to start. It's not dreaming as we define dreaming. If a skeptic wants a label, the skeptic would call the journey and induced sustained hypnagogic trance.

Indeed that's all we have here is our personal experiences, and do to mine I cannot. I heave encountered "evil spirts" before, and I keep a detailed journal. One representation of a type of evil spirit I see is related to the flu. I see them just before my kids get sick or a flue sweeps through my family. It's my interpretation of something that I am aware of on a deeper level. We are just visual beings we have to construct images for everything we become aware of. Another might think the "evil spirit" is causing the sickness, I am well aware corolation problems with assumptions like that. All other encounters, I have learned to refocus my mind channel psychological fear away from me and realize that altered state imagery is a visual construct of things that are not even in physical reality. In essence you have to learn to master your self, and not let sponsoring emotions and instincts control you. This frees you from reacting to stressors that cause you to inturpret things as "demons". Do you remember when NEO in the Matrix held up his hand and stopped the bullets. He finally realized that nothing is as it seems, intellectually he knew it, but had not integrated it until that moment. Then his mind opened, and he could see the matrix for what it really was.

This is reminiscent of when the Buddha faced the demon hords of Mara and over came them.

http://en.m.wikipedi...iki/Mara_(demon)

It's also a common theme in almost all heroic journies. Part of the heros journey is often a decent into hell then a rebirth haveing conquered it, in shaminism it is the shamanic crisis.

Educate yourself, meditate, allow your thoughts deep self reflection, surrender your self to the great spirit. Demons will evaporate.

This is an interesting discussion

"Mara's most effective weapon is sustaining a climate of fear, whether the fear be of drought or famine or cancer or terrorism. Identifying with a desire or fear tightens the knot that binds one to it, and, thereby, the sway it can have over one."

"In the course of the Buddha's Enlightenment it is stressed that he overcame ignorance and darkness, conceptions which are also used prominently in connection with Mara's activities. Both are readily associated with the capacity to blind men, in terms of confusing their understanding."

http://www.urbandhar...arma8/mara.html

I don't think we are here to struggle against evil, ambush bug, we are here to struggle against ourselves.

All of this reads like New Age self-realization and self-empowerment exercises.

I think I am superman therefore I am superman. But in reality, can I stop bullets? Leap over tall buildings? Or stop a locomotive?

I do not fear demons, therefore they are powerless to me.

That reeks of self pride and the pride of life, but ultimately we are all inherently flawed human beings and that is the power sin holds over our heads.

But the root of the problem is we can not conquer sin alone.

Sin invades our thought patterns, behavior patterns, and the very sinew of our existance. Sin is the unstoppable corrupting force of nature.

You are deeply flawed! I am deeply flawed! We need to strip our selves of all conceit, pride, and self-delusions. Not build walls of denial.

[_Only]

Sin invades our thought patterns, behavior patterns, and the very sinew of our existance. Sin is the unstoppable corrupting force of nature.

You are deeply flawed! I am deeply flawed! We need to strip our selves of all conceit, pride, and self-delusions. Not build walls of denial.

I don't believe that. Do I have to? You wrote it as if we have to.

Edited December 21, 2012 by _Only

[White Crane Feather]

Please dont post lies. I told you only the other day in PM that I never read anyones blogs unless the the poster has placed a link to it as if it is a form of evidence. I actually have the blog section down the right side crossed out so I dont see it. And its not about being a fraud. I was suggesting that maybe because you were usually OBEing in the morning(and using a WILD technique) that you could be easily falling into REM stage sleep and creating the experience of out of body from simply having that as a goal running through your mind. So above when you said to everyone that REM takes 90mins I wanted people to know that this is not always the case. It can take only moments sometimes.

Yes but we went over that before and there was some REM in that research. These are just snippets below from long links you gave me.

So the first OBE is only seven seconds.. and had some REM. I think thats how that reads anyway. And the second one they dont know how long it was(so it couldve been less than seven seconds..) and there was isolated REM near the end. And the end might have been when he had his three second OBE.. Anyway this is just another reason I'm not really a fan of Monroe and dated scientific study. I personally think Monroe just wanted to sell books and the mysteroius miss Z section to all this would not count in todays scientific community imo. So I would not call miss Z 'wise'. I think miss Z was a fraud and a tool to sell a book back in the days of hippies tripping out over such wonderful new age concepts.

Anyway that aside I do agree there has been very little modern research done and more needs to be done. Thats why I sit on the fence and suggest to people like you that maybe the morning OBEs which you usually did before... was slipping into REM. And people can dream very quickly during the afternoons too. I know if I sleep in the arvo I can slip into a dream within maybe 10/20mins, they are different feeling dreams though and not so heavy, so it might not be normal REM but I think it must have traces of REM. And people can dream in non REM stage sleep. Anyway like we both agree, I guess we wont know for sure until more research is done.

I think we have gone off topic now though. Sorry about that Sakari.

Well ok... All I called it was a "sustained hypnagogic trance"... I think that research in hypnagogia confirms.

"Threshold consciousness (commonly called "half-asleep" or "half-awake", or "Mind Awake Body Asleep") describes the same mental state of someone who is moving towards sleep or wakefulness but has not yet completed the transition. Such transitions are usually brief, but can be extended by sleep disturbance or deliberate induction, for example during meditation[citation needed]."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

As I remember the last time we had this conversation, it ended in labels. Hypnagogic images are not really normal dreams.

I also think miss Z is a fraud, but I can't be sure. But I do know of other people that seem to be able to without mixing it with out half states. indeed I am working on this and have had one success. I think OOBs do not necessarily need rems... The fact that NDEs have nothing to do with sleep yet are OBEs without sleep. (Unconsciousness by trauma is not sleep) ( was my recent OOBE while in meditation what you are acusing me of lieing about ? Or was it the morning thing? Or Mabey you still think I'm MR. Walker in disguise, or Mabey I was lieing when I profiled the shooter based on my experience with spectrum kids?, or Mabey it was the "suppose" incident?, or Mabey you think I stole the "trap" incident from you? Or Mabey it has to do with the perception experiments I mentioned I did a while ago, Or Mabey....just Mabey you have got a chip on your shoulder. I think it's obvious you have a problem... What ever it may be. Who really is the troll here. You like to throw out accusations in all kinds of threads then avoid dealing with them by saying it didn't belong in this thread.. How honest is that kaz?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Seeker79

[Kazahel]

Well ok... All I called it was a "sustained hypnagogic trance"... I think that research in hypnagogia confirms.

"Threshold consciousness (commonly called "half-asleep" or "half-awake", or "Mind Awake Body Asleep") describes the same mental state of someone who is moving towards sleep or wakefulness but has not yet completed the transition. Such transitions are usually brief, but can be extended by sleep disturbance or deliberate induction, for example during meditation[citation needed]."

http://en.m.wikipedi...wiki/Hypnagogia

As I remember the last time we had this conversation, it ended in labels. Hypnagogic images are not really normal dreams.

Yes true labels and quickly looking at that link at the bottom it says.. "Mental phenomena that occur during this "threshold consciousness" phase include lucid dreaming, hallucinations, and sleep paralysis.".

Lucid dreaming occurs in REM, so to say above how you did that it cant be in REM because of the 90 minutes you have to wait is somewhat misleading considering the methods you had previously told me you usually performed in the mornings which were basically a WILD technique.

I also think miss Z is a fraud, but I can't be sure. But I do know of other people that seem to be able to without mixing it with out half states. indeed I am working on this and have had one success. I think OOBs do not necessarily need rems... The fact that NDEs have nothing to do with sleep yet are OBEs without sleep. (Unconsciousness by trauma is not sleep) ( was my recent OOBE while in meditation what you are acusing me of lieing about ? Or was it the morning thing? Or Mabey you still think I'm MR. Walker in disguise, or Mabey I was lieing when I profiled the shooter based on my experience with spectrum kids?, or Mabey it was the "suppose" incident?, or Mabey you think I stole the "trap" incident from you? Or Mabey it has to do with the perception experiments I mentioned I did a while ago, Or Mabey....just Mabey you have got a chip on your shoulder. I think it's obvious you have a problem... What ever it may be. Who really is the troll here. You like to throw out accusations in all kinds of threads then avoid dealing with them by saying it didn't belong in this thread.. How honest is that kaz?

NDE do interest me as do spontaneous OBE's. But I do believe people can get into REM stage sleep very quickly the first time of going to 'sleep'. I cant really go into the hows and whys too much because of the rules but certain natural substances can lead you into these experiences. So because something else can trigger the dreaming without going through 90mins first, I believe maybe other things can trigger this as well, including trauma.

The rest of you post is a mishmash of things to answer which isnt suited here. You seem to think I have a chip because I point out things like the REMs above(the 90mins post) and when you usually obe(and what that can mean)... So making out it cant be REM sleep because of the 90mins I think is misleading to readers. And when you(or anyone else) try mislead people, especially by make trolling comments about how I check your blogs then I will speak up. I never read anyones blogs which I told you only a few days ago in PM and yet a day or so later you claim "that seems to be what your into"... That is a flat out lie and a trolling one at that. And for someone to so flippantly lie like that says much about their character.

And the rest of what you posted above is more examples of it and its not in this thread to have to sort it out again. I sorted it out with you in PM and yet you come back and make up lies by saying trolling things like what I explained to the readers here in the paragraph above. And then you ask me who is the troll here?!

Seeker79. I wanted readers to know in more detail how long/quick it can take for people to get into REM stage sleep. And yes I was curious on how you would answer my question on when you usually OBE for reasons which are obvious. Credibility is important to me and any skeptic here in these forums would ask similar questions too. Are you going to claim I have a chip everytime I pull you up for either speaking nonsense, for speaking 'truths' which simply arnt truths or for flat out lying? Because its just a baseless claim to discredit the questioner/questions.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Kazahel

[buckskin scout]

I don't believe that. Do I have to? You wrote it as if we have to.

Do I believe in atonement and reconciliaton? Yes I do.

[DingoLingo]

Go get married, that will make your life a living hell.

add children to the mix and you will have a demonic horde.. at least that is what it feels like when I go home..

[AsteroidX]

invitation is a risky venture to take. something may find you tasty and a treat. It may eat on your soul and whittle your life and willpower . It may let you sleep or keep you awake. Invite an evil spirit into your home at your own risk. It is a danger to become possessed. You may find a width of breath that is unlike a witch. Itll likely burrow into your soul and nest there and sleep. Find yourself first . If your lucky one on one wont find you because you are powerless to the dark corner of the room. Its tendrils will sweep out and undulate like its seeking a nice piece of pie. You will never be rid of it and you cannot run. Why would you invite such a thing into your sleep. It is enough to be found and I expect it would a much worse terror to seek and even worse find what you didnt wan to find to begin with. Sleep tight and nighty night I can stay awake all night for a dem,on never sleeps. That is the being of malevolent.

smraeriFretsamhsuB

[_Only]

Do I believe in atonement and reconciliaton? Yes I do.

That wasn't the question.

[buckskin scout]

That wasn't the question.

You have a freewill to believe whatever you want. However your conscience speaks to you.