The Strange Tale of "Dr. 58"

[Sakari]

Entire post wrong. Too much to correct. You seem so bitter.

And to the onslaught of people jumping down my throat, this is a place for discussion of the paranormal. Not entertainment. That's a byproduct for some. And didn't say anywhere I wasn't interested. If I wasn't interested I wouldn't write here. But this thread is full of fail discussion. You want to hear the next installment; you don't want to discuss how it works. Have fun with that. Nothing new for me here.

I agree with you 100% J.O.

I asked a few pages back if we could get the recordings of the sessions(because the board goes so fast I have to record them).Yes , it may be me "asking" for proof , but I did say , it would be very interesting for people to be able to hear the session , and read along with the "said" session writing...I think it would.I even offered a place to put these files.

No , I do not believe any of this is coming from a board game either.I think saying this does make anyones story sound a lot better , kind of like that Robin Williams movie " Jumanji"...It just "brings it to life" , so more power to the author , especially with the following he is getting from it.

Reminds me of when the Blair Witch came out , a lot of people were convinced it was real , and that dogman video , same thing....If you put a great spin on a all ready good story ( yes , that is a compliment) , it makes that story so much better.Kind of like writing a book off of a "found diary" that washed up in the Atlantic ocean in a bottle.

People will all ways believe in Psychics , Ouiji , PSI balls , etc....

Why do people like "us" come here if we do not like it?.....Well , for myself , I do think it is a good story , and I think this knowing it is just that , a well constructed , fabricated , story...And a good one.

The other reason , it just amazes me how some people can believe things so easily , especially things that to the majority of people are just obviously not true.This does amaze me , and I will all ways look , read , and comment on these types of topics.

Kind of like when I see someone with 1000 piercings on their face , I just want to keep looking , and ask " why? , what? , really?"...

I really agree with something you pointed out , and I have said it also....If this were real , it would be as big of news as Bigfoot being captured.I have had a few here disagree with that , but I think it is true.If someone verified there are other dimensions , or worlds like this , it would drastically change the way everyone lives.No one in their right mind would keep a lid on it just for themselves , and a forum..." Oh , no news crew or college would even look at it"...That is bogus...If ANYONE had this happening , filmed it , invited people over to witness it , yes , they would get interest....

This will never happen , it can not happen......It is just like the Bigfoot in the freezer thing , only the freezer and the bigfoot are staying locked up in someones personal closet...

Anyway , as I said , it is a good story , and I will continue to read it , and probably comment..I would never have even looked at it in the "books/blogs/stories" section ( something like that)...So , Kudos for the author on the placement of the story

[Monk Mongo]

Against all hoped, desired, and truly sought for limits, there does appear to be yet a lower stoop for commentary. At end how ....... what? Sad? Challenged? Lonesome? Or.....?

What pictures are on your wall/ceiling/floor/eyelid j.o.? Got milk?

Et tu, Toothless?

Enough, already.

Please, post as you may, Iron Ghost. Thanks, again.

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

Couple of things need to be addressed here.

No, he just wants to write it here to see what reaction it gets. No more. Pretty weird.

No it's not, this is a internet discussion board for the subject of the unexplained. I would say anything to do with ouija boards is not out of place here.

Social skills, lateral thinking, yeah yeah. Not hurting my feelings. Stimulation doesn't have to be considered positive by you to be stimulation. And I don't know how people who challenge his claim are being ignorant. You look at his links and past history, you see he enjoys using Ouija boards and is an author. Critical thinking in his history, his past discussions, the way he talks here, and his transcripts of what he says is his paranormal contact add up to me not buying it a bit.

This is on the verge of breaching two of our rules - Pulling up the OP's background and past posting history to encourage such personal dissection is not on. Don't do it.

Here's a reminder:

5a. Personal attacks: Attack the point being presented, not the person who is making it.

5c. Personal scrutiny: Do not attack or scrutinise another member's intelligence, mental status or personal/educational background.

Murrangurk - Part of your post was removed for going to far in response. Again 5a and 5b apply to you too. I don't want to see any more personalised commentary or 'ad homs' from you either.

Now back to the topic.

Edited May 27, 2010 by SupeRgirl

[Robin_Shadowes]

I challenge all the bitter skeptics to come up with something better than IG's Dr 58 story rather than posting their endless rants and whinings here. I don't care if it is true or not. Not that I wouldn't mind it to be true but that's not the point. The point is that I enjoy the tale of Dr 58. I enjoy it a lot more than the skeptic rants about it. I don't buy food, books, cd's and dvd's I don't like, so don't read it if you don't like it.

[cameojoe]

IG. I am absolutley fascinated by this whole ordeal. Please post more.

[21st Century]

I challenge all the bitter skeptics to come up with something better than IG's Dr 58 story rather than posting their endless rants and whinings here. I don't care if it is true or not. Not that I wouldn't mind it to be true but that's not the point. The point is that I enjoy the tale of Dr 58. I enjoy it a lot more than the skeptic rants about it. I don't buy food, books, cd's and dvd's I don't like, so don't read it if you don't like it.

That wouldn't solve anything. It's quite fallacious to claim that one cannot criticize something without creating something of greater quality first. By that logic, the only people capable of being movie critics would have to be directors who won several oscars. By your logic, the only person qualified to become a film critic would be the most acclaimed movie director of the time.

I might be on your side in terms of being annoyed at the trolls, but I can't stand by what you've just said. And I can't help but tell you you're wrong. Now, of course, you yourself have two options here, either you respond to me or you don't. Know that if you do respond, I will face the same choice.

My point here is that if you want the trolls to leave, simply don't respond to them, not even to tell them to leave. Either they, themselves, will leave or they will try bolder and bolder replies which might get them in trouble. You certainly shouldn't defend IG, that's the kind of situation which causes more trolling because trolls see a cohesive group which guarantees replies.

So please, ignore the posts you don't like (like you tell them to) and ignore mine. Don't respond to this post.

[IronGhost]

Okay, this should pick up right where the last post left off.....

Question: How did the Nazis deal with the flying abomination? Did they blow it out of the sky? Do you know what I mean? Did they shoot it?

ANSWER: THEY PENETRATED IT WITH EXPLOSIVE NEEDLE. THE CREATURE BURST FROM WITHIN. BLACK SPEW RAINED DOWN UPON THE SHIP, SPLATTERING SAILORS. MANY ERUPTED IN VIOLENT SEIZURES. SOME WENT MAD. THOSE WERE THE FORTUNATE.

Question: Fortunate? I'm almost afraid to ask what happened to the unlucky ones.

ANSWER: LIMBS SPRUNG FROM THEIR HEADS, LONG ARMS WITH TALONED HANDS. THESE IMMEDIATELY BEGAN GROPING FOR OTHERS, RIPPING AT FLESH. THERE WAS CHAOS. AND SOMETHING STRANGE.

Question: And something strange!!!! And something strange!!! What could be stranger than a throng of frenzied Nazi sailors thrashing about on a ship with taloned appendages hatching from their heads??!!

ANSWER: NOT ALL OF THESE GROPED FOR VICTIMS. SOME BEGAN TO DANCE IN A CIRCLE. IN THIS MIDST OF THE DANCERS THERE APPEARED A GOLDEN-HAIRED CHILD, A NOMRAL HUMAN GIRL, BUT OF EXTREME BEAUTY. SHE CARRIED A PIKE OF HAMMERED SILVER.

Question: Uhhhh .... Yeesh! Okay, that is strange. Dr. 58, you are unrelentingly strange. A pike of hammered silver, you say? Nice touch. So in all this frenzied chaos, Nazi men with demon arms sprung from their heads, some start dancing around and there appears a golden-haired little girl. What was she doing there?

ANSWER: SHE RAISED THE SILVER PIKE HIGH AND BEGAN TO SING, USING THE NAZI TECHNO TONGUE:

GIVE ME A BOX

WITH NO LOCKS

GIVE ME A CLOCK

WITH NO TICK TOCK

PLANT A REED

WITHOUT A SEED

SEE THE SKY

WITH NO EYES

SEE THE GROUND

BUT DON’T LOOK DOWN

Question: (Moaning and groaning, or minds swirling from the sheer madness of Dr. 58's tale, never being able to guess where he is going or what he’s going to say next. We nevertheless pressed on, not quite sure what to ask next, so we just punted). What then, Dr. 58?

ANSWER: AS THE CHILD GODDESS SANG, MANY MEN WERE SEEN TO TURN INSIDE OUT. THEIR ENTIRE FORMS BECAME AS A WET SUCKING ORAFICE. OTHER MEN, POSSESSED, PUSHED THEIR SHIPMATES INTO THE ORIFICES AND WERE SWALLOWED.

Question: And all of this triggered because they downloaded satellite data from scanning Minnesota! What eventually happened to this ship?

ANSWER: MEN SWALLOWED BY THE ORIFICE DEMONS WERE REGURGITATED AS ANTHROMORPHS. THEY PURSUED ANYONE STILL HUMAN, COMMITTED HEINOUS ACTS OF DESECRATION UPON THEM. SCORES OF MEN JUMPED INTO THE SEA. THE MONSTERS COMMANDEERED THE SHIP.

Question: So the Anthromorphs took over the ship? What were they going to do? Run amok like pirates to terrorize the high seas?

ASNWERS: PERHAPS. A SISTER SHIP, A NAZI FRIGATE, FIRED A PLASMA BOLT UPON THE SHIP. IT'S CORE IGNITED. IT EXPLODED.

Question: Well, to put it mildly, things sure went bad for the Nazi's and there little remote sensing project! But I take it this was only the first part of some very bad stuff that was going on Krupp Island, am I correct?

ANSWER: YES. AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF THE RHINE. THE NAZI FLOTILLA WITHDREW AND FORMED NAVAL QUARANTINE AROUND KRUPP.

Question: That was the name of that ill-fated ship? The Rhine?

ANSWER: YES.

Question: Did any further flying abominations emerge from Krupp?

ANSWER: NO. A NUMBER OF NAZI TECHNOCRATS WERE OBSERVED RUNNING FROM A COMPOUND. THEY WERE PANICKED. THEY RAN TO THE BEACH AND WADED INTO THE WATER, WAVING TO THE SHIPS, PLEADING RESCUE FROM KRUPP.

Question: Were they picked up?

ANSWER: THE NAZIS SHOT THEM ALL.

Question: Why!?

ANSWER. DO YOU WONDER? THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN HUMAN BEINGS.

Question: Maybe they were feared to be doppelgangers?

ANSWER: ONE COULD NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE.

Question: Oh brother. So the Nazi's must have felt like they had really uncorked something utterly, massively evil and deplorable. Perhaps a little bit of Minnesota in the middle of an ocean island. They must have been desperate to contain this entire debacle to Krupp Island, right?

ANSWER: YES, BUT THEY HAD PROBLEMS. BEFORE THE RHINE EXPLODED AN OVAL JET PLANER LAUNCHED FROM DECK AND DISAPPEARED INTO THE HORIZON. THE NAZI'S ATTEMPTED TO SHOOT IT DOWN, BUT FAILED.

Question: (Oval jet planer! Drools, wants to know more, but decides to move on). So it may have been ordinary men or some abomination that escaped from the Rhine by aircraft ... was this oval jet planer ever found?

ANSWER: YES, SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES AWAY ON CORMOR HUITE. THE CRAFT WAS ABANDONED.

Question: Where is Cormor Huite?

ANSWER: A LARGE ISLAND NATION SOUTH OF THE AMERICAS.

Question: If they would have been real human escapees, I imagine they would have reported in, or what was the case here?

ANSWER: UNKNOWN. THE PIOLTS MAY HAVE DEFECTED. OR PERHAPS ABOMINATIONS WERE UNLEASHED UPON CORMOR HUITE.

Question: What a mess! Dr. 58, this incident with the beautiful child goddess. It strikes me in an intuitive way. It’s seems such a jarring image, such a weird incongruity amid all the dark madness of that event. What do you think about that? I mean, this must be cause for much speculation?

ANSWER: OLD CAVE HAS SPOKEN OF IT.

Question: Old Cave, the former Father Reston Vromin who is believed to have returned from Minnesota?

ANSWER: YES, OLD CAVE GAVE A TEACHING TO THE SOCMALS HERE IN NEW YORK. HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE GOLDEN GODDESS CHILD. OLD CAVE OFFERED THE PROFOUND AGONY OF THE ETERNAL ITERATION.

Question: What do you mean by that? He offered the Profound Agony of the Eternal Iteration? I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. Can you expand?

ANSWER: BY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE GOLDEN CHILD. OLD CAVE SUGGESTS THE GIRL INVOKED THE ETERNAL AGONY -- THAT BECAUSE OF THE REALITY OF INFINITY, ALL REALITIES MUST ENDLESSLY REITERATE.

Question: You mean that because time and space are infinite, everything that has ever happened must sooner of later happen again -- given an infinite amount of time, and endless possibilities of reality, that eventually everything that has happened must happen again and again, and without end?

ANSWER: YES. THIS IS THE AGONY. THE GOLDEN CHILD INVOKED THE ULTIMATE AGONY.

Question: But why in this case, in this situation? Was she trying to send some kind of greater message?

ANSWER: INTERPRETATION AND SPECULATION IS ENDLESS. ALL THINGS CONCERNING MINNESOTA ARE IRRATIONAL.

Question: Maybe Old Cave is full of crappola, that is, maybe he does not know what he is talking about?

ANSWER: PERHAPS. PERHAPS THE GOLDEN CHILD REVELED IN IRRATIONALITY.

(Note: At this point the session was getting rather difficult because I was having a great deal of trouble seeing the Ouija board. As I have stated elsewhere, I am a lifetime sufferer of dysmetropsia micropsia, a condition in which, on rare occasions, everything in my field of vision begins to appear very tiny -- like you are looking at things through the wrong end of the telescope. [This is sometimes called Alice in Wonderland Syndrome]

Staring at the letters on the Ouija board for a long time sometimes triggers the micropsia -- my hands look very far away, touching a tiny Ouija board with tiny letters that seem to dance a waver. Micropsia if often followed by a migraine headache. There can also be a sort of dizzy “out of it” feeling -- everything seems strange.

It’s interesting, though. If you have ever read Carl Jung’s “Man and His Symbols” there is a part in the book where Jung describes a man who was traveling in Russia by train. He did not read or understand the Cyrillic alphabet, yet when he stared at the letters, he was surprised to discover that these meaningless symbols led him into a kind of trance state and caused him to began having intense inward fantasies.

This is similar to something I experience when the Ouija session get very long, which also can trigger micropsia. I mention this because of the strikingly dream-like quality of the image of the Golden Child and her eerie sing-song poem in the midst of madness -- this may give fuel to those of you who are arguing for a subconscious explanation as the source of this material -- although I have many problems with the subconsciousness scenario -- but at the same time, I thought it best to lay all my cards on the table for this particular session -- because of the dream-like flavor it seems to have.

Anyway, that’s it for now….

[XxMaximumxX]

Ooohhh never tried a ouiji board i want to but im scared of it saying theres somthin behind me lol

[PhilSciFi]

Ooohhh never tried a ouiji board i want to but im scared of it saying theres somthin behind me lol

Dancing Nazi?

Child goddesses?

Quarintined Islands?

This world is truly messed up in so many ways. I look forward to the next section.

Sorry to heard aobut you eye problems, I suppose I'm lucky. I just have glasses.

Edited May 27, 2010 by PhilSciFi

[Purple Octopus]

I am loving these sessions with Dr. 58! Keep them coming IronGhost!

[RadicalGnostic]

Since that other world is so messed up (being nice ), I wonder if they have locations where crude oil and natural gas are gushing into the sea? Never mind...they probably have something worse.

IG, this is the only thread in the intire www where I get a daily digest. Nothing else anywhere has me so captivated. Please keep the sessions coming...after you have rested your eyes. Perhaps you could make a fortune using these sessions as the plot of the book? A movie would be just wild!

Best wishes to you, IG. Thanks for your courage in posting this information and still remaining humble.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Edited May 28, 2010 by RadicalGnostic

[Sakari]

I challenge all the bitter skeptics to come up with something better than IG's Dr 58 story rather than posting their endless rants and whinings here. I don't care if it is true or not. Not that I wouldn't mind it to be true but that's not the point. The point is that I enjoy the tale of Dr 58. I enjoy it a lot more than the skeptic rants about it. I don't buy food, books, cd's and dvd's I don't like, so don't read it if you don't like it.

If I were a Writer , I would accept that challenge...I will say again , I do enjoy this story , it is well written....My only "complaint" is that is said to be from a "session" on a Ouiji board.( and the fact so many believe this)....I will not even bother getting into that anymore for now.....

For those who never seem to see it here it is again " I enjoy the story "....Got it?

And , if I were a author , and took that challenge , I would put it in it's appropriate place :

Writer's and Artist's Hangout

Fiction, artwork, poetry and music by members.

[Esoteric Toad]

Just throwing my 2 cents in. I too consider this to be science fiction, alternate history fiction. IMO it's the sort of thing that the fake BF does for those that support BF or the chinese latern pranks do for those that support UFO's=Aliens. It discredits what little credit the paranormal 'field' has in the first place. I'm not here to disprove anything, just to say imo this is fiction and as such in this location it doesn't help in the whole 'sorting the wheat from the chaff' type thing. JMO.

[Sakari]

I am not trying to sway this topic , I would however , like to post something that explains why "skeptics" are the way we are...Not trolls , not looking for arguments....I hope this explains it.....Than , let's carry on with the topic

One of my dad's favorite questions is, "Where's your common sense?" As he expresses it, "common sense" is the recognition of the plainly obvious and the knowing of right from wrong, and acting accordingly.

How does "common sense" apply to skepticism? Skepticism is plain common sense applied to everyday things and otherworldly things. For example, what does common sense "tell" us about psychics who claim to receive messages from dead people? It tells us that if people we know and love can communicate with the living, they would communicate with us, not a stranger. Common sense tells us that a person who claims to hear sounds or see symbols as conveyed to them by the dead really aren't communicating with the dead: it tells us that they're makng it up as they go along. Even the most cursory examination of the patter used by these alleged psychic mediums shows that the medium really isn't psychic at all--if we apply a little common sense.

In simple, common-sense terms: people apply meaning to things because they're already biased; the medium's pronouncements are sufficiently vague to cover a lot of situations; and quite often, the mediums are just plain wrong. It's plainly obvious when we suspend belief for a little while and look at these things with an open mind.

Common sense is the application of critical thinking. Just as common sense tells us not to play in traffic, common sense tells us that the laws of physics just can't be violated. People really cannot levitate, read minds by mental telepathy, cause objects to fly or to twist and bend by thought power alone, or even receive messages from the dead, because all these things violate the laws of physics.

Common sense tells us that the world works a certain way, without exceptions. There are no escape clauses in the laws of physics, or the laws of chemistry. Thus, common sense tells us that when a homeopathic preparation is diluted to the point when virtually no trace of the original substance remains, what's left is nothing more than plain water (often with a certain amount of alcohol or lactose as a carrier, which makes homeopathics into quite expensive liquor or sugar...but certainly not medicine that really, truly works).

Common sense tells us that people who kill other people in the name of God or of religion are very probably wrong about their beliefs. Common sense tells us that an almighty God doesn't need humans to do His slaying for Him.

Common sense tells us that all the weird and wonderful beliefs promoted by "New Age" spiritualists cannot all be true, and if they cannot all be true, it is very likely that none of them is true...although that reasoning is somewhat flawed, because it is possible that some of it is true...except for what common sense tells us about violating the laws of physics.

Probably the biggest question facing skepticism today is the question of religion. Psychic mediums, people who claim to be able to alter matter with their thoughts alone, psychic detectives, and so on often claim that their "gifts" are divine or spiritual in origin. This is a convenient claim, because it places investigation of these alleged gifts of special powers beyond the realm of science. Common sense tells us that this is an excuse, a way for those who claim such powers to dodge having to prove that they really, truly can do what they claim to do.

Religion, also, plays an important role in the "intelligent design" question. Ultimately, an "intelligent designer" must be divine, and able to alter matter at will. No other agency could possibly be the putative "designer". Common sense tells us that "intelligent design" is a religious doctrine, and not science. It's plainly obvious, when we apply common sense.

Religion plays a key role in politics. Common sense tells us that religion and politics are dangerous together. The results of the commingling of religion and politics are evident in many countries.

Common sense tells us that we're not perfect, that we're as likely to be wrong as right, that our senses have limits and that we can be fooled...but also that we're smart, wise people who can sort nonsense from reality if we give ourselves a chance to carefully consider.

Common sense tells us to think about things before acting on them, and certainly it tells us to think about things and to ask questions before believing. In a paradoxical way, common sense tells us that what seems plainly obvious may not be true. This is where we enter the realm of "critical thinking"...

[000000000000000]

Common sense is not too common. Some things you cannot argue. He cannot prove he is right. You cannot prove he is wrong. There is no point about arguing over whether it is fiction or not.

[kiddglock]

Entire post wrong. Too much to correct. You seem so bitter.

And to the onslaught of people jumping down my throat, this is a place for discussion of the paranormal. Not entertainment. That's a byproduct for some. And didn't say anywhere I wasn't interested. If I wasn't interested I wouldn't write here. But this thread is full of fail discussion. You want to hear the next installment; you don't want to discuss how it works. Have fun with that. Nothing new for me here.

I hear you. I've made posts that involved nothing supernatural before, but they were either explained or the intent was clear. I have no problem with the OP or the content if he is saying it's real. I will go a step farther and say I have no problem with it if he's lying or delusional, etc. The reason for the latter is that I accept the fact that this site will no doubt attract a lot of trolls and other people who are not what they seem. What I have a problem with is exactly what you're talking about...the cryptic remarks leading one to believe the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek, bad fiction. IMO fiction should be placed on other forums where I can go and read it if I want to read...fiction.

[Denzanrom]

ANSWER: SHE RAISED THE SILVER PIKE HIGH AND BEGAN TO SING, USING THE NAZI TECHNO TONGUE:

GIVE ME A BOX

WITH NO LOCKS

GIVE ME A CLOCK

WITH NO TICK TOCK

PLANT A REED

WITHOUT A SEED

SEE THE SKY

WITH NO EYES

SEE THE GROUND

BUT DON’T LOOK DOWN

I like this

A box with no locks: Do not cage

A clock with no tick tock: Freeze time

Plant a reed without a seed: Create out of nothing (like God)

See the sky with no eyes: Can't really tell anything of this

See the ground but don't look down: Fear. This has something to do with fear.

No no. I don't think Minnesota is irrational.

[Zanriel]

How would a person prove whether this story was made up, coming from his subconscious, or genuine information from a parallel universe? Take each theory as a premise and test it. The problem is, there are no tests anyone could possibly come up with that would prove anything.

Say the story is made up, and IG isn't really using a Ouija board at all. If that were the case, there would be no audio transcripts because there would be nothing to record but the clicking of a keyboard. No video except a man sitting at a computer typing up a story and posting on a forum. However, IG claims he got this communication from a Ouija board. Say you were able to peek in and observe the process, what would you see? Assuming IG really wants people to believe this all came from Ouija sessions, you'd see IronGhost and a partner sitting around a Ouija board, them asking questions (probably out loud) and the pointer moving from one letter to another. What does that prove? Nothing. There's still no way of knowing if the information is consciously made up, subconsciously pouring out through involuntary muscle movements, or an outside entity moving his hands.

If you're looking for the pointer moving on its own, forget it. Except for very rare, undocumented, unverified cases, that's not how Ouija boards work. Ouija is a form of channeling, which requires a channel to operate. Whether one is channeling the subconscious or an outside entity is impossible to prove.

So to the skeptics: Come up with a reasonable test that would actually prove whether or not this story is consciously made up, it's coming from the subconscious, or coming from an external entity. If you can't come up with a test like that, then how can you say it's fake? (Fake in this case meaning, he sat down and consciously came up with a story rather than receiving it through a Ouija board without deliberately moving the pointer to predetermined letters.)

Unless you're a mind reader, or you manage to spy on him while he isn't looking, all the recording equipment in the world would still fail to prove anything in this case. Even if you could spy on him, that still wouldn't prove anything unless you clearly saw the absence of a Ouija board, and you knew that what he was typing was not a transcript of a previous session.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Zanriel

[Esoteric Toad]

How would a person prove whether this story was made up, coming from his subconscious, or genuine information from a parallel universe? Take each theory as a premise and test it. The problem is, there are no tests anyone could possibly come up with that would prove anything.

Say the story is made up, and IG isn't really using a Ouija board at all. If that were the case, there would be no audio transcripts because there would be nothing to record but the clicking of a keyboard. No video except a man sitting at a computer typing up a story and posting on a forum. However, IG claims he got this communication from a Ouija board. Say you were able to peek in and observe the process, what would you see? Assuming IG really wants people to believe this all came from Ouija sessions, you'd see IronGhost and a partner sitting around a Ouija board, them asking questions (probably out loud) and the pointer moving from one letter to another. What does that prove? Nothing. There's still no way of knowing if the information is consciously made up, subconsciously pouring out through involuntary muscle movements, or an outside entity moving his hands.

If you're looking for the pointer moving on its own, forget it. Except for very rare, undocumented, unverified cases, that's not how Ouija boards work. Ouija is a form of channeling, which requires a channel to operate. Whether one is channeling the subconscious or an outside entity is impossible to prove.

So to the skeptics: Come up with a reasonable test that would actually prove whether or not this story is consciously made up, it's coming from the subconscious, or coming from an external entity. If you can't come up with a test like that, then how can you say it's fake? (Fake in this case meaning, he sat down and consciously came up with a story rather than receiving it through a Ouija board without deliberately moving the pointer to predetermined letters.)

Unless you're a mind reader, or you manage to spy on him while he isn't looking, all the recording equipment in the world would still fail to prove anything in this case. Even if you could spy on him, that still wouldn't prove anything unless you clearly saw the absence of a Ouija board, and you knew that what he was typing was not a transcript of a previous session.

So in a nut shell, anything goes. If a skeptic cannot figure out a way to test a claim we have to accept it as....whatever the poster chooses to post it as. How far do we take this premise before we concider something complete fiction? As I have read a thousand times before, if a claim is made it is the claimant that must present the information, not the skeptics to produce tests to prove the claim. The way I see it the writer has basically said, in a round about way, that this is made up and it is up to whomever reads it to draw a conclusion. The ouija was thrown in there as well. I don't know, it's fun to read but I do not think it contributes towards any useful research nor does it lend credibility to the 'field' of paranormal research.

Your example of skeptics not being able to come up with a test is a bit silly. I can only imagine how backwards our world would be if we used this reasoning. Even though I personally cannot think of a test for this situation I still doubt it is as it is being portrayed. I'd like to think that if I suddenly found I could communicate with 'something' unexplained I would do everything in the world to prove I wasn't making up...ANYTHING. Not for money, but to proove I wasn't trying to fool people or that I wasn't insane. I suppose you could subscribe to some deep philosophical belief that what is real, what is imaginary...etc etc. If that is the case than it truly doesn't matter...after all, we could all be figments of each others imaginations

It could be almost anything, a vivid imagination, mental illness, ghosts, transdimensional communications...etc etc. (I vote vivid imagination). It is odd that so many readers of these threads are so supportive given almost no evidence to indicate it is anything but an interesting work of fiction. I found UM because I was genuinely interested in the unexplained. With the advent of the internet it seemed to me that if there was anything out there that was truly supernatural it would be on the net. Instead I found that the same stories with no attempt to validate them are being repeated over and over again. Very little has changed in the UFO, cryptid, ghosts, or any of the paranormal subjects with regard to how they are studied. With a flood of dubious stories and no real attempt to research them there is no way to lend any scientific validity to any of it and it will remain that way unless there is at least a feeble attempt to apply some sort of scientific method to the 'field'. JMO

[Nile_Shaman]

So in a nut shell, anything goes. If a skeptic cannot figure out a way to test a claim we have to accept it as....whatever the poster chooses to post it as. How far do we take this premise before we concider something complete fiction? As I have read a thousand times before, if a claim is made it is the claimant that must present the information, not the skeptics to produce tests to prove the claim. The way I see it the writer has basically said, in a round about way, that this is made up and it is up to whomever reads it to draw a conclusion. The ouija was thrown in there as well. I don't know, it's fun to read but I do not think it contributes towards any useful research nor does it lend credibility to the 'field' of paranormal research.

IMO< I don't think it has to contribute credibility to the field, ET. This is just another form of the old ghost stories around a campfire, and real researchers should be doing thier work apart a bit. Not unlike doctors hearing patients over and over again with similar reports on their health. You have the face to face docs and researchers apart from them. Arguing about it at the campfire will get you pummelled with "so-mores" or empty beer cans .

Your example of skeptics not being able to come up with a test is a bit silly.

Honestly, *I* don't think so. No picture, no film, no tape, nothing ever presented here has ever passed muster with the sceptic camp. There is no proof. However, there is an abundance of the same reports over and over again. I posted over a year ago begging for sceptics, for serious minded folks to look at some of the things, even just one, and come up with some ways we might well be able to test or check or find out what they are, or aren't. It was a short lived thread . Most people do not want the truth, they desire entertainment, and even here remain polite to good posters who offer that and civility. Most sceptics like to complain and trot out their usual claims of imagination or similar and verge on personal attacks if all else fails. If they'd discuss or debate their own ideas it would be less stressful for everyone.

Believers aren't all nutjobs. Some enjoy reading and do not believe the tales anymore than you do, but they do not feel threatened or upset by it, just read and smile and enjoy and move on. There would be an end to this forum if every post got slammed as fake and cut off at the knees.

I'd like to think that if I suddenly found I could communicate with 'something' unexplained I would do everything in the world to prove I wasn't making up...ANYTHING. Not for money, but to proove I wasn't trying to fool people or that I wasn't insane.

And you'd face a lot of BS flags and a few supporters standing up for you, though those would be fewer than the attackers. Rare is the one who can ask questions and talk it out and help you to sort it out on the middle ground.

I count that as a loss to everyone, but do think these continued diatribes of sceptics vs believers do work to develop a few who find that middle ground a bit less stressful and more productive.

I found UM because I was genuinely interested in the unexplained. With the advent of the internet it seemed to me that if there was anything out there that was truly supernatural it would be on the net.

Well, they are, mixed in with the rest, but the majority aren't anywhere but locked away in the people who experienced them, who don't need proof or further validation, but might enjoy a friend to discuss it with and find some closure or new insights. But, you cannot do that easily with people demanding pictures they then claim are photo-shopped or a cameraman's hand waving just outside the line of sight. Most are dubious, I admit it, but I have seen real events dismissed cruelly or overlooked entirely just since I came back a couple weeks ago.

But, even if you believed me and I said this one was true, that one was sincere, and you went to read it more seriously, there would be no proof or answers for you, and the other side cannot give it. Not the way things stand now. Maybe never. JMO.

If there ever will be real proof acceptible to all, it would require some standards or basics thought through by the so-called sceptics and put out there for peaceful discussion. But, seriously, there remain people today who still doubt we ever went to the moon and dismiss a great deal of science. So, IMO, there is no such thing as proof that everyone would be satisfied with.

But, I'd sure like to see an effort, myself. Just not here on an active thread with another topic entirely. Please do not mistake this as an attack on sceptics. Just, it SEEMS that in this arena either you know or you don't, and the two sides do not meet much at all and maybe cannot.

IG has entertained and made me smile for a couple years now and the details are irrelevant to me. He says it is via ouija, so it is. His work does not change my religion, my beliefs, my mental health... it is irrelevant to me beyond a smile and some intriguing imagery I couldn't have come up with myself. (thank you, IG).

But, if you do want to talk about proof, how to measure, how to quantify reports, I'm game. Start a thread and I will post when I have time. Maybe your thread will live longer than mine did .

Very good wishes,

ns

[Monk Mongo]

Bravo, Zanriel.

Tuck, and kiss: common, e.t., n.s. et al.

[_Only]

Cool look, it's a discussion!

[Nocturnal]

Entertaining story for sure. To me it has a very 'Fringe' vibe to it.

POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT FOR FRINGE ( nothing specific but setting details from later in this last season )

If you imagine the setting from the TV show with two average citizens that aren't aware of the hidden details of the fringe events discuss their respective worlds, via something like the typewriter.

Both worlds with a similar but different history, technology of different fields advancing at different rates. In one, something occurs (even here Ben Franklin is similar to Walter Bishop) causing freakish events that everyone begins to take as 'normal' - containment zones etc.. In the other, everything the way we see it.

[zoombie]

So to the skeptics: Come up with a reasonable test that would actually prove whether or not this story is consciously made up, it's coming from the subconscious, or coming from an external entity. If you can't come up with a test like that, then how can you say it's fake? (Fake in this case meaning, he sat down and consciously came up with a story rather than receiving it through a Ouija board without deliberately moving the pointer to predetermined letters.)

how about getting all the ouija practioners do it with their eyes close.

btw: does anyone find this 17 yrs old extremely knowledgeable. i guess they have a better education system where he's from

Edited May 29, 2010 by zoombie

[Kuikara]

See the sky with no eyes: Can't really tell anything of this

perhaps a reference to heaven ? after all a common idea of heaven is clouds and rays of light . plus many people believe heaven to be a spiritual or mental place in which you would not need physical eyes ?

hope this helps