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The Strange Tale of "Dr. 58"


IronGhost

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I understand your point, King of Agony ( I really hope you're not hurting too much right now! :unsure::lol: ). I have nothing whatsoever against browsing UM to be entertained, am doing that myself too, but I don't agree on being criticised by someone who wants to be entertained for trying to investigate a particular phenomenon, and I definitely do not agree that it would be justified to "sell" a mostly fictional story as true by justifying that the subjectively experienced content is difficult to relay & more important than truthfulness. It would be a lie & duping other members, simply put. I am speaking hypothetically here, of course.

Yeah, the "Story Telling Corner" remark came out a bit crankier than I intended. I had a blinding headache all day, so my apologies for that.

I'm not sure why I'd be "hurting too much" but the propensity of this devastating zinger has apparently eluded me as you seem to have amused yourself immensely by it :rolleyes:

I don't feel that it's prudent for you to automatically assign the entire content of these transcripts as fiction even if he did embellish or fill in the blanks a little with his own impressions to present a cohesive dialog. To accuse him of "duping readers" on a public forum is to persecute him with impunity, and this(IMO)is irresponsible when the material presented is in itself; inherently subjective by it's very nature.

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I'm not sure why I'd be "hurting too much" but the propensity of this devastating zinger has apparently eluded me as you seem to have amused yourself immensely by it :rolleyes:

Well, your UM-name is King of Agony, that's why.

I don't feel that it's prudent for you to automatically assign the entire content of these transcripts as fiction even if he did embellish or fill in the blanks a little with his own impressions to present a cohesive dialog. To accuse him of "duping readers" on a public forum is to persecute him with impunity, and this(IMO)is irresponsible when the material presented is in itself; inherently subjective by it's very nature.

Whoa! Full stop, King of A. Do not misinterpret my words please. In no way whatsoever was I referring to IG. I said I was speaking hypothetically.

I was trying to explain the reasons why I wouldn't think it ok should IG (or anyone else for that matter) have made it up, or even just embellished it.

And I still stand by this opinion. If someone presents something as a truthful account of a real event, then that's what should be given, and what one should have the right to expect. Otherwise the OP would need to mention that certain embellishments or additions have been made for the sake of readability or entertainment. It just wouldn't be honest otherwise.

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Well, your UM-name is King of Agony, that's why.

Whoa! Full stop, King of A. Do not misinterpret my words please. In no way whatsoever was I referring to IG. I said I was speaking hypothetically.

I was trying to explain the reasons why I wouldn't think it ok should IG (or anyone else for that matter) have made it up, or even just embellished it.

And I still stand by this opinion. If someone presents something as a truthful account of a real event, then that's what should be given, and what one should have the right to expect. Otherwise the OP would need to mention that certain embellishments or additions have been made for the sake of readability or entertainment. It just wouldn't be honest otherwise.

What constitutes a genuine channeled message? and how would such be validated? :)

Edited by King Of Agony
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Iron Ghost has been asked by many, including myself, about his posts, whether they are creative writing and fiction, or if he asserted them to be authentic transcripts from his Ouija sessions, and he very clearly and specifically, claimed the latter, therefore it is obviously his intention that his posts are to be taken as literal results from his Ouija board results, as well as his own opinions and beliefs, when he states them as his own, within the text.

He and most UM members are well aware that if he wanted to post his creative writing, UM has a Writer's forum specifically for fiction and such. He very deliberately clarified before that his posts here might reflect a minimum of editing for clarity of sentences and spelling, but otherwise, the transcripts are asserted to be accurate for both his own thoughts and speech, as well as the communication from the board personalities - his posts are, or have been, to the best of my understanding, presented by Iron Ghost as factual, as far as he can make such a claim.

As an aside, for the last few posters, please address the topic itself, not other posters, spelling, usernames, or behavior. If you feel someone is out of line, use the Report button - that's why UM has moderators, they police the forums. Thank you.

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Iron Ghost has been asked by many, including myself, about his posts, whether they are creative writing and fiction, or if he asserted them to be authentic transcripts from his Ouija sessions, and he very clearly and specifically, claimed the latter, therefore it is obviously his intention that his posts are to be taken as literal results from his Ouija board results, as well as his own opinions and beliefs, when he states them as his own, within the text.

He and most UM members are well aware that if he wanted to post his creative writing, UM has a Writer's forum specifically for fiction and such. He very deliberately clarified before that his posts here might reflect a minimum of editing for clarity of sentences and spelling, but otherwise, the transcripts are asserted to be accurate for both his own thoughts and speech, as well as the communication from the board personalities - his posts are, or have been, to the best of my understanding, presented by Iron Ghost as factual, as far as he can make such a claim.

Well said. I was 97% sure. Now I'm 98% sure, and that's good enough for me.

In fact, 97% was good enough as well.

Great posting IG. How's your blogs going? Are they up and running yet? As I mentioned, have had trouble viewing them. Some are empty!

thanks for posting, and thanks for all the really interesting replies recently. I agree with Antimony and IG regarding the subC, but I think the concept of a SubC is valid. There's science, pseudo-science and then pop-culture science. Most folks only understand the latter, and think of the subC as some kind of post freudian, post "High Anxiety" (Mel Brooks, you know the one,) thing. But there is activity in the brain on many levels that exists "beneath" awareness.

Rock on guys. Where's the rest of the tale? Is there an end to it?

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Well said. I was 97% sure. Now I'm 98% sure, and that's good enough for me.

In fact, 97% was good enough as well.

Great posting IG. How's your blogs going? Are they up and running yet? As I mentioned, have had trouble viewing them. Some are empty!

thanks for posting, and thanks for all the really interesting replies recently. I agree with Antimony and IG regarding the subC, but I think the concept of a SubC is valid. There's science, pseudo-science and then pop-culture science. Most folks only understand the latter, and think of the subC as some kind of post freudian, post "High Anxiety" (Mel Brooks, you know the one,) thing. But there is activity in the brain on many levels that exists "beneath" awareness.

Rock on guys. Where's the rest of the tale? Is there an end to it?

There will be more coming -- everyone will have to be a bit patient with me. There is voluminous information, with no end in sight, though not sure how much of it will post here -- but a bit more for sure, anyway. I feel I owe the rest of the info about the sat disasters, and the "flood" because I probably unintentionally teased everyone about this info, so I guess you deserve to read it.

Thanks, Paranormal, for your comments. You state my position correctly. I really honestly do not consider this information fiction, but rather, Ouija transcripts. If it's fiction, it's not my fiction.

If you will all notice, this information is not really a "story" as such --it does not have what I consider a central element of fiction -- a plot. There is not a cast of characters working through a series of problems, working toward a solution -- plot. It's just information. Although I guess it does seem like a story in a way.

But again, I thank everyone, and I mean everyone, including the critics -- and I beg your patience. I make my living at the keyboard and am on deadline with two writing projects for two publishers who have their boots on my throat, reminding my of a couple of deadlines I have coming up.

!!!NAMASTE!!!

Edited by IronGhost
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I am not trying to sway this topic , I would however , like to post something that explains why "skeptics" are the way we are...Not trolls , not looking for arguments....I hope this explains it.....Than , let's carry on with the topic :)

Common sense tells us to think about things before acting on them, and certainly it tells us to think about things and to ask questions before believing. In a paradoxical way, common sense tells us that what seems plainly obvious may not be true. This is where we enter the realm of "critical thinking"...

Hi Sakari. Loving your sharp insight.

I agree, but with certain reservations. I do not believe Common Sense is such a stalwart ally. It's certainly very important, but needs to be handled with...er...common sense.

For example, not long ago, within my parents generation, it was considered common sense that when one was bitten by a venomous snake, to cut the wound open a little, make a tight tornique above the bite, then suck out the poison with orally. Only relatively recently, this seemingly obvious and logical first aid procedure was reviewed. Common sense prevailed over common sense.

There's lots of other examples.

Now hold that thought because I want to respond to another post of yours!

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Thanks, Paranormal, for your comments. You state my position correctly. I really honestly do not consider this information fiction, but rather, Ouija transcripts. If it's fiction, it's not my fiction.

!!!NAMASTE!!!

And that's the ticket! That's what has got me fascinated. I have no idea where it would be coming from, I can speculate, but woah what a mind *snip* please do not circumvent the wordfilter - it exists for a reason

Also, I'm prepared to take you at your word. Why the hell not? WHat have I got to lose? You could be pulling a 4th encounters/blair witch thing, but I could be lying in a coma somewhere hallucinating this whole thing, and you're actually a facet of my own subconscious

Keep it coming. I patiently await more information!

Edited by Paranormalcy
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Hi Sakari. Loving your sharp insight.

I agree, but with certain reservations. I do not believe Common Sense is such a stalwart ally. It's certainly very important, but needs to be handled with...er...common sense.

For example, not long ago, within my parents generation, it was considered common sense that when one was bitten by a venomous snake, to cut the wound open a little, make a tight tornique above the bite, then suck out the poison with orally. Only relatively recently, this seemingly obvious and logical first aid procedure was reviewed. Common sense prevailed over common sense.

There's lots of other examples.

Now hold that thought because I want to respond to another post of yours!

I did not write that , I found it a long time ago , and like it :)...Or wait , it came to me on a Ouiji board session I mean ( couldn't resist).....Anyway , I could debate that above , but better not....No wait , let's do.....Let me give a example of the "common sense" this is pertaining to....

1.A professional writer posts on a Paranormal site ( that has a section for music , stories , etc.) on the Ghosts/hauntings/paranormal thread.The writer posts that he is having Ouiji board sessions , and the letters are coming so fast that he has to record them , and listen to therm later to write them down.

2.The writer posts long discussions with different characters.....

3. The writer does not want to release the recordings , or post them , so we can listen as we read the given session.Nor does the writer want to make 1 million dollars ( see my reply about 2 pages ago).

Common sense to me in order:( to he numbered sentences above )

1 , and 2.:

More hits on the ghosts/hauntings/paranormal thread than the short story thread....If the writer is recording ( like he stated ) the sessions , and the letters go so fast , and he has to listen later to write it down , how does he have a discussion?...After asking 2 or 3 questions , it would take forever and a day to get to the other questions , after "listening later" , than writing it down...No way to have a long detailed discussion this way.

3: It would be very time consuming , and a pain in the **** to go back and start recording every letter of a story you have written down , to match the story word for word , and than release it in order , to show it may be a real thing...>And who would not try for the 1 million dollars?..This topic sure would be a good candidate for sure.

And last but not least for "common sense ".....A quote from the Writer.....

" I make my living at the keyboard and am on deadline with two writing projects for two publishers who have their boots on my throat, reminding my of a couple of deadlines I have coming up."

I do like the story as said , I just think it is just that....No offence to anyone ,just my opinion....

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For this particular story , a test to "prove it does not exist" would take the writer's approval to come to his home...Will explain that later....

Now how to prove it is fake....Let's say I posted I can type replies just by my thoughts , people here want to know how I do it , verify it.

1.I could explain in detail how it is done , than let them try it.If they can not do it , I would video me doing it.Now , this would obvioussly not be verifiable either.I would than have to have a outside source come verify it at my home , or me go somewhere to verify it...As a matter of fact , I would do it for the 1 million dollar challenge ( for those who do not know , there is a 1 million dollar a ward to anyone whom will go verify there psychic abilities)....If I did not "need the money"...lol....I would invite anyone near me to come verify it...It takes the person claiming this to help me "prove it does not exist"....If I did not agree to do anythng to show I can do it , than it is just my word against science and physics.

I have asked the author to let us hear his taped sessions , he refuses.Personally , I think it would take a lot of time to sit down and ask these questions , than letter , by letter , have a full story.That is after going back and listening to the letters you say out loud to write down when listening to your recording....This brings me to a good point.

The author says he "has to record them because the letters go by so fast"....If this is the case , how does he come up with a response to a statement?If he is going back and listening later to write the letters down to form words/sentences he can not have a full session....Get it?...This is why he is not willing to post recordings in my opinion.This shows it is not even his subconcious , he is just writing a story , same as any author , but with the side show thing thrown in to amplify the story.Who would want to have to get a recorder , read a manuscript letter for letter that matches up.This would be time consuming to do...Now , if this recording was all ready made , it would be very easy to do.It is all ready done....So , without the author willingly accepting that challenge , I can not "prove it is fake" this way.

What can one do now?....Try doing Ouiji sessions myself.Have others try Ouiji sessions themselves.With a large sample group , at least one should be able to come up with something verifiable , if this were true....Well , this has been done , and not one shred of evidence to point to paranormal.I do not know how many studies have been done , I know a lot.The only conclusions that came out , are that an Ouiji board is NOT a tool to communicate with anyone other than the person touching it.

Sakari, if I had my own paranormal investigation reality TV show, I'd want you on my team.

I reckon this is an excellent and well thought out, clinical research methodolgy. However, just because any subject for this test may not consent to comply, doesn't necessarily mean they're not genuine. There could be many reasons why they may refuse. Trust is a major one. Take ufo experiences for example. Many do not get reported due to fear of general ridicule.

furthermore, both skeptics and believers can be equally nutty. Let a team of hostile skeptical scientists into your private home, who despite having good intentions obvioulsy have no respect for the claimant or the claims would be as destructive as letting in a bunch of believers who think you're the chosen one and set up a temple in your front yard. The subject must trust the tester. try giving my dog a worming tablet...

In IG's case, I suspect he is personally very used to this phenomena, and there just isn't the urgency to prove or disprove. He's probably been through all that before and has his own conclusions. The general public - well, to paraphrase Tom Waits: The general public are like a wild animal, and so its best not to feed them too much.

Nevertheless, if I was doing this Ouija thing and getting amazing results I would certainly submit myself to your valdity tests. In fact, if anything weird happens to me, I coming straight to you first.

One more point having said that - should I or the subject have an experience or can manifest phenomena such as this privately, then fail to reproduce it under test conditions, it would not mean that previously the phenomena did not occur. And that would drive me insane. Becuase IT HAPPENED, man, I was THERE, and now it ISN'T!! ARRRGGRRHHH!!! And you be all like "meh. fake." And I'll be all like " but...but.... :cry:

I have taken on the "prove it does not exist" with Demons/spirits/evil spirits , etc...It is a topic here , I have tried about everything anyone has suggested to get one , and notta..

That is awesome. I think, if you haven't already, post up your efforts! Would love to read about that.

However, once again with the devil's advocations, while I do agree with you, I would also have to remind myself that absence of the phenomena doesn't disprove it. There could be any reason why they haven't worked, not least is that they're BOGUS, but can you conclusively rule out all other factors? Also, has anything been lost in translation? If someone tells you this "spell" will produce a ghost, and you do it expecting a ghost in a hwite sheet and all boogedy boogedy, but what you get isn't an actual ghost and isn't in a white sheet etc, and so you don't notice it, and count the experiment as a fail?

Look I know it's a long shot and you're most likely very thorough, but you gotta ask these questions. Nothing is absolute.

Anyway , I could go on and on....Here is the link to the Million Dollar Award if the author wants it....

" At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests."

here is link to apply for it.... million dollar challenge

I believe CSICOPS had one of these too, and various other organisations. As for CSICOPS, I read a couple of accounts of their debunks. They took down some fake psychics very quickly and thoroughly. But they attempted to take down some other fringey type things, and not only did they fail, but they acted extraordinarily unscientific, and then when they didn't get the results they wanted, they became absolutely vindictive, even falsified data to prove their point.

I admire the idea behind these prizes, but I am very dubious of them.

There is a great analogy I think fits these situations.

Imagine a group of scientists are asked to investigate a phenomena known as "music", that moves in invisible waves through the air and is capable of affecting a person's emotions, almost seemingly psychically.

They discover an artifact known as violin, and are told it is an instrument for creating music. They tap it, they scrape it, plug it in, drag a bow across it, dismantle it, remantle it, and finally come to the conclusion that Music is merely a fairytale, that no such thing exists, and in fact people are stupid and gullible for believing in it at all, it is merely aggravating noise.

Sometimes the reward is not proof or disproof of something, but in how our understanding evolves in the process. The technology used to disproof the existence of music gave us the iPod.

Well, I made that last bit up.

Great posts everybody. So stimulating.

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murrangurk you should be a diplomat or a primary school teacher.

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One wonders if genetically encoded past life memories are filtered through our "subconscious" and if the imposed concentration associated with board use triggers the release of these past life memories? Perhaps the pattern of letters and symbols on the board are in reality a bar-code that trips a hard wired interface we all have (pineal gland) when viewed within the periphery of the planchette focal point?

Or maybe its just all imagination and Ideomotor effect :innocent:

Edited by King Of Agony
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One wonders if genetically encoded past life memories are filtered through our "subconscious" and if the imposed concentration associated with board use triggers the release of these past life memories? Perhaps the pattern of letters and symbols on the board are in reality a bar-code that trips a hard wired interface we all have (pineal gland) when viewed within the periphery of the planchette focal point?

Or maybe its just all imagination and Ideomotor effect :innocent:

I like the way you think.

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I like the way you think.

Thanks :)

That is another aspect of IG's threads, they are provocative and often instigate non-conventional modes of thinking. I've been a lurker here for a while.

I haven't read all of the replies here yet but intend to.

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Anyway , I could go on and on....Here is the link to the Million Dollar Award if the author wants it....

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests."

here is link to apply for it.... million dollar challenge

Iron Ghost is not eligible to take part in the challenge due to the first part of rule 12.

"12. This offer is not open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a “media presence,” which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person’s abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified."

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Iron Ghost is not eligible to take part in the challenge due to the first part of rule 12.

"12. This offer is not open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a “media presence,” which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person’s abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified."

It should not be hard to get those qualifications if what he states is true :tu:

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It should not be hard to get those qualifications if what he states is true :tu:

I don't see how they could test ouija board use. How would they know if he was moving it, or if it was moving itself. And since IG is tapping into a supposed alternate dimension, it wouldn't even be possible to verify any of the information he receives.

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I don't see how they could test ouija board use. How would they know if he was moving it, or if it was moving itself. And since IG is tapping into a supposed alternate dimension, it wouldn't even be possible to verify any of the information he receives.

Well, as stated before if you hadn't seen it, a good start is to sit him in a room blindfolded and put a Ouija board in front of him (facing any direction) and see what happens? Will lengthy spellings of words and sentences come out of it? If so, I'm sure many would find interest and worth in studying it further. At this point no research of worth has gone into this subject, because there is just no want for it.

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I don't see how they could test ouija board use. How would they know if he was moving it, or if it was moving itself. And since IG is tapping into a supposed alternate dimension, it wouldn't even be possible to verify any of the information he receives.

I am sure there is a way...We can test DNA , Sleep Disorders , Carbon Dating , etc...I am sure there is a way to test a Milton Bradley board game , and the movements of it's user(s)...

I am sure electrodes / sensors could be hooked up for brainwave activity , and muscle movement.They do it for other things....And there is a lie detector test available.( not insinuating that for this subject )...There are numerous tests that I could never comprehend , but there are people who can.......

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I don't see how they could test ouija board use. How would they know if he was moving it, or if it was moving itself. And since IG is tapping into a supposed alternate dimension, it wouldn't even be possible to verify any of the information he receives.

Well, as stated before if you hadn't seen it, a good start is to sit him in a room blindfolded and put a Ouija board in front of him (facing any direction) and see what happens? Will lengthy spellings of words and sentences come out of it? If so, I'm sure many would find interest and worth in studying it further. At this point no research of worth has gone into this subject, because there is just no want for it.

I am sure there is a way...We can test DNA , Sleep Disorders , Carbon Dating , etc...I am sure there is a way to test a Milton Bradley board game , and the movements of it's user(s)...

I am sure electrodes / sensors could be hooked up for brainwave activity , and muscle movement.They do it for other things....And there is a lie detector test available.( not insinuating that for this subject )...There are numerous tests that I could never comprehend , but there are people who can.......

Well, many Ouija board users realize that they are causing the movement of the planchette. They often

rationalize their beliefs by saying that they are channeling intelligences who are guiding them, making use of their body, including their vision, to communicate. A blindfold test wouldn't disprove these claims.

The only way I can think of to validate claims that users are tapping into some paranormal power would be to have a stranger attend a number of sessions. This stranger would merely be an observer. The users would then be asked specific, hard to guess questions about the stranger which they couldn't possibly have known beforehand. You'd also have to make sure that the stranger wasn't giving them subtle clues, using body language or eye movements, that might lead them to the correct answer.If the users get a large number of questions right, there might be something interesting going on. But even then you're not determining the source of the information: telepathy, spirits, chance, etc.

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To paraphrase Plato's Socrates, if something can't be understood by weighing, counting, or measuring (i.e., through mathematics and quantification), then the only way to tackle it is through rhetorical analysis (language). So, I agree with Her Awesome Purple Felinity, with her approach to these transcripts and her conclusion about them. If, as IG urges, one denies the validity of rhetorical analysis and rejects the reality of psychological categories as well, then the only avenue left for ascertaining and demonstrating truths is mathematics. But such a resort to positivism would leave untouched virtually all of the political, aesthetic, ethical, and metaphysical questions and concerns that constitute an important part of human understanding. Indeed, such questions and concerns, as Plato argued, form the most important part of our understanding of the self and the world--however flawed the specific answers and solutions to such questions may be.

Whenever somebody tells me language doesn't matter, I start looking for where some truth is being hidden. And when somebody tells me that my little old "I" is merely a delusion, which I'd be better off to dispense with, I always say, "You first. I'll wait and see how that works out for you."

But enough philosophizing. Let's get back to "Dr. 58." And I do mean "Dr. 58." All those other entities butting in all the time is starting to get irritating! IG, your Ouija board is a regular party line!

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Of course you can. Just ignore all other posts apart from the story instalments. Simple.

This is a discussion board about paranormal phenomena. Not the Story Telling Corner in your local Day Care Centre. Sorry.

ano but some people are just being ridiculous.....it has no meaning its just cool. A story/fact made/founded for our entertainment... and i do wish it would continue ;)

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Hi all :).

I am new to this forum. This is really a very enlightening and fascinating read, both the actual story of Dr 58 and the parallel minnesota and also the comments and debates it arises.

Was just curious is there any more on the actual tale itself?

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