The Strange Tale of "Dr. 58"

[Murrangurk]

And by the way, is IG faking? Is it real or a scam?

Only time will tell.

So, relax.

[Psychic Ocelot]

Anyone who watches a lot of Dr Who (like, I dunno, ME) would understand the langauge thing, and why Van Gough has a scottish accent when Amy Pond speaks to him, and Shakespeare talks like a chav, and the Sycarax speak english even though it is the langaugae of primitive cattle.

It's the TARDIS. (Read:Ouija board.) It gets in your head.....

Lol I like Doctor Who, earlier we noted that almost any story could be a communication, could there be a doctor who out there in a parallel universe? You should try to contact him via ouija board

I also temporarily submit to FlyingAngels argument, I currently have no counter argument, support from another member would be excellent, I have a horrible headache at the moment and cannot think perfectly straight...

I'm specially interested in culture on Dr. 58's world. It's been amazing to read about Mayan and Nordic cultures as superpowers in that world.

It is an interesting subject, does anyone have an opinion on how those could have become superpowers?

We've got Africa left, has anything been told about that?

I don't think we have been informed about Africa in Dr.58s world, Egypt as that local super power?

[Sakari]

This is what I meant by lengthy response without actually answering any question. Surely if you have the time to write all that out, you can also answer a question or two? It seems you're defensive against these questions. It's not hard; if you don't have an answer, just say "I don't have an answer to that".

I agree with this 100%....

I know at least 4 of my questions could have been answered with a one word answer....

Example answer , either..

A. The Planchette moves....

B. The mind is moving , not the Planchette...

Maybe with a little sentence on why this changed also....

[Sakari]

The language Dr.58 is speaking may not necessary be English. Consider the ouija board has its own mechanism to process and transmit message into a message any entity can understand.

You can simply say it's just a board. The key here is the human mind, the brain. Whether a word is in English, French, Spanish, Chinese... after being decoded by the brain, they refer to the same thing.

Example:

cat (english)

chat (french)

gato (spanish)

猫 (chinese)

As you see, the words above are written differently, but inside our brain, they refer to the same visual meaning that everyone understand : a cat.

That is the universal language using by the board I'm talking about.

Ok , I am not getting this either...My mothers family are Austrian , I went there when I was 13.She never taught me German , and they never learned English...I was there 6 weeks.

It did not matter what word(s) they were saying , my brain , nor anyone else's brain I know of can refer another word ,in another language , as what it should be in English.

[Aeneid]

I believe you didn't get what I meant. It's not about how a word is written or how many meanings a word has. Sure a word could have many meanings when put in a different context. But the point is the human brain decodes any sentences into an universal language. A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat. Unless when we talk about a dog, you visualize immediately a dinausor, which is not the case.

Like atm, I'm written in english. You get all my sentence. Even if I write this in french, and you use google translator back to english, you still get the same thing (with condition the translator is perfect).

Think the human brain is like a translator :

sentence language A (think,hear,see) <-> neuro information (brain) <-> sentence language B

I still fail to see how this would apply to an Ouija board. If the human brain is the one translating things into the recievers given language, then the brain would have to be the one moving the planchette to the letters needed to make the sentence understandable.If that is the case, then why have the board at all, why not just write down the letters on paper that the brain is decoding for you? Now if you are saying that whatever is broadcasting the message does so in it's native language, and the Ouija board takes that thought and turns it into a sentence spelled out one letter at a time in english, then you would have to assume that no matter what thought the broadcasting entity wanted to convey, it would have to be able to be expressed in a combination of OUR 26 letters to form a word that we may or may not understand. That being the case if a broadcasting being were transmitting thoughts of something we had no words for, experience with, or frame of reference to, the words popping out letter by letter would appear as gibberish to us because we have no visual image to tie this mess of letters to since we have never experienced it. You keep referring to visual language, but with an Ouija board that visual has to be broken down into letters that spell out words. If your brain is acting as the translator and making the words itself there is no point in having the board in the first place. My argument is that by your logic there is no need for the Ouija board at all, and in the instance of this story the Ouija board is a central component

[Aeneid]

Ok , I am not getting this either...My mothers family are Austrian , I went there when I was 13.She never taught me German , and they never learned English...I was there 6 weeks.

It did not matter what word(s) they were saying , my brain , nor anyone else's brain I know of can refer another word ,in another language , as what it should be in English.

Exactly Sakari. Your brain takes visual imput and labels it with a word that you are familiar with and accustomed to (i.e. learned). You don't look at the word "battery" written in Sanskrit and suddenly get a picture of a battery in your brain

[Psychic Ocelot]

Ok , I am not getting this either...My mothers family are Austrian , I went there when I was 13.She never taught me German , and they never learned English...I was there 6 weeks.

It did not matter what word(s) they were saying , my brain , nor anyone else's brain I know of can refer another word ,in another language , as what it should be in English.

Babies? How do they learn a language in the first place? I grew up learning both english and russian at about the same time, and I learned to connect them in some way... I mean your argument is a good one, but possibly the more primitive part of our brain can do it?

Plus what I think FlyingAngel is getting at is that when we get a signal from the board, it is not words per say but the groups of neurons that fire that signify the word that is being transmitted, and the brain could feasibly translate that...

[Leonardo]

I believe you didn't get what I meant. It's not about how a word is written or how many meanings a word has. Sure a word could have many meanings when put in a different context. But the point is the human brain decodes any sentences into an universal language. A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat. Unless when we talk about a dog, you visualize immediately a dinausor, which is not the case.

Like atm, I'm written in english. You get all my sentence. Even if I write this in french, and you use google translator back to english, you still get the same thing (with condition the translator is perfect).

Think the human brain is like a translator :

sentence language A (think,hear,see) <-> neuro information (brain) <-> sentence language B

I would be inclined to accept the concept you are promoting if the Ouija board was a visual mnemonic device, basically using pictograms to facilitate the communication. However, it is not. It uses an alphabet and spells out words (although "Yes" and "No" are commonly included on the board) and so your hypothesis of how it works falls rather flat.

If you are suggesting the spelling out of words on the board is subsequent to an image being communicated into the recipient's mind then we have the situation where the movement of the planchette is entirely of the recipients volition, to spell out a word the image of which they have in their mind. In other words, the Ouija board is completely irrelevant to the actual communication.

Again, there are issues with that premise in that how can we tell there is any communication if the word is simply spelled out from an image in the Ouija-board-users mind?

[FlyingAngel]

I still fail to see how this would apply to an Ouija board. If the human brain is the one translating things into the recievers given language, then the brain would have to be the one moving the planchette to the letters needed to make the sentence understandable.If that is the case, then why have the board at all, why not just write down the letters on paper that the brain is decoding for you?

The board is a tool for concentration, it doesn't have the ability to translate things, the mind does. You need a board because you need to translate the language inside your mind into a message you can understand. You can draw a picture though. I didn't see any report someone write down the letters. Either it's not possible or people didn't try it. You can ask around if anyone here has tried it or not. Moreover, spelling letter is faster than drawing a letter, why would you choose that method?

But if this theory is true, if you can write down all words in a dictionnary on the same board, the entity would pick the entire word instead of spelling the word.

Now if you are saying that whatever is broadcasting the message does so in it's native language, and the Ouija board takes that thought and turns it into a sentence spelled out one letter at a time in english, then you would have to assume that no matter what thought the broadcasting entity wanted to convey, it would have to be able to be expressed in a combination of OUR 26 letters to form a word that we may or may not understand. That being the case if a broadcasting being were transmitting thoughts of something we had no words for, experience with, or frame of reference to, the words popping out letter by letter would appear as gibberish to us because we have no visual image to tie this mess of letters to since we have never experienced it. You keep referring to visual language, but with an Ouija board that visual has to be broken down into letters that spell out words. If your brain is acting as the translator and making the words itself there is no point in having the board in the first place. My argument is that by your logic there is no need for the Ouija board at all, and in the instance of this story the Ouija board is a central component

You are right about the gibberish letters. There are many case the user write down an unknown word, or a weird symbol. As said, the board is simply a tool for concentration and decoding. If you master the communication and wish to use a better decoder, that's possible. But the point is, do you know what's the better tool than a board with letters? Can you invent it?

@Leonardo: see above

Again, there are issues with that premise in that how can we tell there is any communication if the word is simply spelled out from an image in the Ouija-board-users mind?

That's one goal of science. If you are able to prove it scientifically, then you have discovered the truth about the ouija board. Examining the brain and decoding every brain message is the only way. Maybe wait the day people invent a machine that can read thought?

IN CONCLUSION: THE BOARD IS NOT AN OBLIGATION, IT'S SIMPLY A TOOL FOR CONCENTRATION AND DECODING.

Edited July 13, 2010 by FlyingAngel

[Aeneid]

The board is a tool for concentration, it doesn't have the ability to translate things, the mind does. You need a board because you need to translate the language inside your mind into a message you can understand. You can draw a picture though. I didn't see any report someone write down the letters. Either it's not possible or people didn't try it. You can ask around if anyone here has tried it or not. Moreover, spelling letter is faster than drawing a letter, why would you choose that method?

You still seem to be swaying around the entire point. If the board is simply a tool for concentration, as you put it, and the mind does all the work. Then there is no reason for it to be there in the first place. You can concentrate without a board in front of you. You are correct, there wasn't any report of writing the message down in letters, no one said there was, but by your logic it would completely feasible to do so. If your brain is so key here, and is able to do this translating and tell the pointer to go to letter "A", why would you argue the brain couldn't bypass the board and just write the letter "A". Spelling a letter is faster? How so, I really don't think it takes that much longer to draw three or four short lines then it does to move a pointer around a board to a corresponding letter.

In one sentence you say the board doesn't translate things the mind does, but in the very next sentence you say you need a board to translate the language in your mind and repeatedly call the board a decoder. That is contradictory.You say in your own words the mind does the translating, then you say in your own words the board is translates it in to something you understand. If your brain can translate a message enough to tell a pointer which letters to move to, your brain already knows the letters and there in no need for a board in the first place. That leaves your only argument as one of "it's fast to spell than to write" Most letters consist of, what,3-4 lines tops? It doesn't require any more time to write letter than it would to move a pointer on a board to the corresponding letter. Your argument is really back and forth because you call the brain the translator and then you call the board the same thing. You close by saying, in all caps I might add, The board is not an obligation. Well I am afraid that in reference to this story, yes it is, it is the central tenet of discussion in this instance.

[FlyingAngel]

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear. You can draw a letter, but you can't write a letter like a normal person. When using the ouija board, in order to make the planchette moves, all participants have to touch it as gentle as possible. Force and pressure will cause friction on the board surface. Any pen has a sharp form which cause a great pressure so does the friction on the surface when you hold it. The pen will eventually moves but the shape will mostly be deformed as expected and you can't write fast like normal.

The mind play the role of converting human language into the language of the mind and receiving the message of the target. Your mind may receive a message but you are not aware of it. This message is transparent, your mind may understand it but you can't understand it. Therefore you need a tool like the board to convert it into human message. When I say a board is not an obligation, it's because you can use other tools, if you know, to do the same job. The board is simply a board, made of paper or plastic. It doesn't anyhow have the ability to translate, to decode a message. The mind do all the job, and it uses the board as a helper, to help itself to concentrate and to express the result as a message understandable.

If you don't believe, you can try to replace the board of letter with anything which has the capability to express all the words. Ouija board is not an obligation, but it's necessary.

[Psychic Ocelot]

You still seem to be swaying around the entire point. If the board is simply a tool for concentration, as you put it, and the mind does all the work. Then there is no reason for it to be there in the first place. You can concentrate without a board in front of you. You are correct, there wasn't any report of writing the message down in letters, no one said there was, but by your logic it would completely feasible to do so. If your brain is so key here, and is able to do this translating and tell the pointer to go to letter "A", why would you argue the brain couldn't bypass the board and just write the letter "A". Spelling a letter is faster? How so, I really don't think it takes that much longer to draw three or four short lines then it does to move a pointer around a board to a corresponding letter.

In one sentence you say the board doesn't translate things the mind does, but in the very next sentence you say you need a board to translate the language in your mind and repeatedly call the board a decoder. That is contradictory.You say in your own words the mind does the translating, then you say in your own words the board is translates it in to something you understand. If your brain can translate a message enough to tell a pointer which letters to move to, your brain already knows the letters and there in no need for a board in the first place. That leaves your only argument as one of "it's fast to spell than to write" Most letters consist of, what,3-4 lines tops? It doesn't require any more time to write letter than it would to move a pointer on a board to the corresponding letter. Your argument is really back and forth because you call the brain the translator and then you call the board the same thing. You close by saying, in all caps I might add, The board is not an obligation. Well I am afraid that in reference to this story, yes it is, it is the central tenet of discussion in this instance.

You don't need the board... without the board its called automatic writing. IG most likely just does not have the ability to do automatic writing so instead he chooses the ouija board.

[Aeneid]

O.k. I see what Angel was basically saying now. I am still not sure I agree 100% but I understand the argument. So FlyingAngel is saying your brain receives a message from something, then your brain translates it and expresses it through the board in a way you understand. Now since you are not consciously aware of you brain decoding the message and spelling it ou through the board. Wouldn't the whole translation and dictation process be occuring subconsciously? Something IG has stated rather bluntly and firmly he does not believe exists. If you were consciously aware of the message you were receiving and aware of the translation your brain is doing, then you would not need the board because you would be aware of what is being translated and able to write it down as it occured without any type of aid like the board. That being said this explanations is saying the board is working on a somewhat subconscious level and that is something this particular long time board user discredits.

[Dave P]

Stranger than fiction? This is so weird it defies description.

[Psychic Ocelot]

O.k. I see what Angel was basically saying now. I am still not sure I agree 100% but I understand the argument. So FlyingAngel is saying your brain receives a message from something, then your brain translates it and expresses it through the board in a way you understand. Now since you are not consciously aware of you brain decoding the message and spelling it ou through the board. Wouldn't the whole translation and dictation process be occuring subconsciously? Something IG has stated rather bluntly and firmly he does not believe exists. If you were consciously aware of the message you were receiving and aware of the translation your brain is doing, then you would not need the board because you would be aware of what is being translated and able to write it down as it occured without any type of aid like the board. That being said this explanations is saying the board is working on a somewhat subconscious level and that is something this particular long time board user discredits.

Does it matter if he believes it exists or not? I could say that I don't believe in gravity, that doesn't mean that I can all of a sudden fly. Especially since IG isn't really participating in the discussion and explaining his thoughts, it is up to us to decide if the subconscious exists or not.

[markprice]

fifty pages and time for some cliff notes please?

[Saru]

As i'm sure a lot of you are aware this thread has enjoyed a great deal of attention since it was created a few months ago and as someone pointed out above it has reached over 50 pages in length; while this does reflect the amount of interest the discussion has generated it has lead to concerns over the fact that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find all the original posts by the OP in amongst all the other comments. In addition to this we've been seeing time and time again a general disregard for the moderators' attempts to keep the thread from being turned in to a witch hunt by certain individuals ( you know who you are ), as always we ask that members conduct themselves in a respectful and civil manner at all times, avoid personally attacking other users and take any issues they might have to the moderators either via the 'report' button or through the private messenger.

To address these concerns IronGhost will now be posting his Dr. 58 session transcripts to a new blog that he has set up here on the site, the blog will allow visitors to easily browse each new addition rather than having to hunt through all the pages of this thread to find them while still facilitating visitor feedback via the comments section.

The new blog can be found - here.

Closed.