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AROCES

Obama Sides With Mexico Against Arizona

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EllJay

Ok ok undestimated ya ya. However what would Obama's agenda be for his underestimated gaff. We know what Bush's was. Anyway, water under the bridge now really.

I agree though with getting the borders secure and helping Mexico clean house. I havn't quit got what the change in the law was from the first draft to the second draft. What was changed as that could be why there is confusion about this law. I personal have warmed up to it as I must have just heard bits about the first draft as I never new that it had been amended.

My "misunderestimate"-comment was just cause I love to bring up Bush totally braindead comments he made over the years. It did not really had anything to do with the matter, it was just the word `underestimated´that triggerd it. :D

Refugees is one thing, but illegal aliens who work without paying taxes undermines a society, but bringing in some Nazi-like profile ID check makes me think of mid 1930´s Germany.

Soon you have some KKK-soldiers going around and mark certain shops with white paint saying SPICKS or SPICK-LOVER like the SS did with the jews in Germany and had the Star of David and the word "Juden" written on the window.

S**t laws like this paves the way for further abuse, to bad no one can see this coming.

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danielost

what is it you think he stands for, daniellost?

right now at this moment he wants to bring down the usa. or at least turn it into a dictartership. possible controlled be the dem. party or maybe just controlled by him. he has put people into positions who really do want the usa to fail. a few have been fired or quit.

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Pseudo Intellectual

but bringing in some Nazi-like profile ID check makes me think of mid 1930´s Germany.

Soon you have some KKK-soldiers going around and mark certain shops with white paint saying SPICKS or SPICK-LOVER like the SS did with the jews in Germany and had the Star of David and the word "Juden" written on the window.

S**t laws like this paves the way for further abuse, to bad no one can see this coming.

“If Arizona started randomly executing Hispanics, their opponents couldn’t actually up their rhetoric condemning Arizona from where it already is.”

:rofl:

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The Silver Thong

My "misunderestimate"-comment was just cause I love to bring up Bush totally braindead comments he made over the years. It did not really had anything to do with the matter, it was just the word `underestimated´that triggerd it. :D

Refugees is one thing, but illegal aliens who work without paying taxes undermines a society, but bringing in some Nazi-like profile ID check makes me think of mid 1930´s Germany.

Soon you have some KKK-soldiers going around and mark certain shops with white paint saying SPICKS or SPICK-LOVER like the SS did with the jews in Germany and had the Star of David and the word "Juden" written on the window.

S**t laws like this paves the way for further abuse, to bad no one can see this coming.

Doh..... how embarassing. I should have picked up on the Bushism. Twice in one thread I have to say my bad LOL

If this law was drafted in a way to racially profile and (pick on a race) then yes I see what you mean and the godwin law applies here. However I don't "think" it will ever go that far. It is a stepping stone but a very wobbly one that people won't feel safe stepping on.

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eqgumby

Doh..... how embarassing. I should have picked up on the Bushism. Twice in one thread I have to say my bad LOL

If this law was drafted in a way to racially profile and (pick on a race) then yes I see what you mean and the godwin law applies here. However I don't "think" it will ever go that far. It is a stepping stone but a very wobbly one that people won't feel safe stepping on.

The big problem is, WHO are the illegal immigrants? Hispanics (at least in Arizona). I mean, you don't have Africans streaming over the border right? So OF COURSE the law in Arizona targets Hispanics. Duh! If they passed an identical law in a state that borders Canada, would the prime minister come down for a state visit and lecture Congress on racism? Again...DUH!

The law does NOT target Hispanics because someone doesn't like Hispanics, but because it is Hispanics crossing the border!

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Ryinrea

Eggby just wanted to remind you there are a lot of people that come here illegally not just the Hispanics. They come here, because they are probably people that have been trafficked by smugglers for Child Labor, Sex trafficking, Bonded labor ect.

Edited by Ryinrea

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ninjadude

Are you serious? You won't mind another country dumping their unskilled and less educated population here, you believe we don't have enough and should have more?

I now know that you missed out on your education. This is pretty much the history of the US.

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Night Star

Most pro illegal people fail to hold the illegal's accountable for their actions. They use stolen identities and false documents to take a job that belongs to a citizen. The illegals that I worked with also collected welfare. The women would lie and say they lived alone, which in truth they lived with their boyfriends. They had two incomes and made well above the poverty limit. They had no right to those benefits. They cheated and lied to play the system.

When my Mom was in the hospital, her 86 year old roomate had applied for help with her medical and was refused because she made 3.oo too much! Like that's going to help her pay thousands of dollars, while an illegal is allowed free medical. It makes me sick.

We have had so many lives lost because of illegals, many who had previous arrests. One case was where a 3 year old child got run over by a drunken illegal who had I don't remember how many previous arrests. So many people that would still be alive today had the laws been enforced. Arizona has every right to protect its' citizens. If I knew I could save a life, or that one more person could be employed by following Arizona's law, I would be happy to pull out any papers or ID's that was neccesary. The feds have failed them. Government and greedy corporations have failed them. I don't blame Arizona one bit. And Mexico's president has no right sticking his nose in our business. He doesn't even take care of his own people.

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The Silver Thong

The big problem is, WHO are the illegal immigrants? Hispanics (at least in Arizona). I mean, you don't have Africans streaming over the border right? So OF COURSE the law in Arizona targets Hispanics. Duh! If they passed an identical law in a state that borders Canada, would the prime minister come down for a state visit and lecture Congress on racism? Again...DUH!

The law does NOT target Hispanics because someone doesn't like Hispanics, but because it is Hispanics crossing the border!

Yes that works fine for Arizona but we have sorry you have 12 other states that are concidering similar laws. Surely they can't all be caused by a hispanic immigration issue. Yes I know the illegals from mexico don't just stay in Arizona but the expantion of this law say to New York could pose some issues.

Eggy don't get me wrong I do believe Illegal imigrants are criminals even if there intentions are noble. It's just that this law sits on a wobbly stone in a creek we are contimplating jumping on to cross the creek. I will have to see how this pans out over the next couple, 6 months to see how it goes down.

Canada has to worry about legal Americans crossing the Canadian border so we don't have an illegal immigration problem like you guys :P Now where did I put my "detect an illegal American spy kit" damn it :D

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Neognosis
what is it you think he stands for, daniellost?
right now at this moment he wants to bring down the usa. or at least turn it into a dictartership.

I continuously overestimate the general intelligence and ability to think critically of the voting populace. I think that nobody in their right mind could possibly believe some of the ridiculous nonsense that gets circulated around.

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SRCivic98

Most pro illegal people fail to hold the illegal's accountable for their actions. They use stolen identities and false documents to take a job that belongs to a citizen. The illegals that I worked with also collected welfare. The women would lie and say they lived alone, which in truth they lived with their boyfriends. They had two incomes and made well above the poverty limit. They had no right to those benefits. They cheated and lied to play the system.

When my Mom was in the hospital, her 86 year old roomate had applied for help with her medical and was refused because she made 3.oo too much! Like that's going to help her pay thousands of dollars, while an illegal is allowed free medical. It makes me sick.

We have had so many lives lost because of illegals, many who had previous arrests. One case was where a 3 year old child got run over by a drunken illegal who had I don't remember how many previous arrests. So many people that would still be alive today had the laws been enforced. Arizona has every right to protect its' citizens. If I knew I could save a life, or that one more person could be employed by following Arizona's law, I would be happy to pull out any papers or ID's that was neccesary. The feds have failed them. Government and greedy corporations have failed them. I don't blame Arizona one bit. And Mexico's president has no right sticking his nose in our business. He doesn't even take care of his own people.

agreed. by the way did anyone else catch the part where Wolf Blitzer asked about the police in mexico? they have the right to just walk up to anyone they want to and escort them out of the country if they think they're there illegally. even if they have all the legal documents they can still be profiled. and yet America is so racist and so bad. How can anyone trust politians I'll never know. All I do know though is that this government we have now is pathetic. This guy also got a STANDING OVATION after CONDEAMING our country and it's policies. If anyone still believes in our government after this it'll be pathetic and disgusting. I love what this nation used to be. It used to be brave, bold, a great place to talk about, full of people who knew right from wrong...now people are brainwashed and weak and not able to stand up for them selves. If something isn't done soon we are going to destroy our selve as the rest of the world watches because truth be told, that's exactly what the rest of the world is waiting on. Also, a president that apologizes about everything we are and everything we do is a COWARD and SICK in my eyes.

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Princess Serenity

Most pro illegal people fail to hold the illegal's accountable for their actions. They use stolen identities and false documents to take a job that belongs to a citizen. The illegals that I worked with also collected welfare. The women would lie and say they lived alone, which in truth they lived with their boyfriends. They had two incomes and made well above the poverty limit. They had no right to those benefits. They cheated and lied to play the system.

When my Mom was in the hospital, her 86 year old roomate had applied for help with her medical and was refused because she made 3.oo too much! Like that's going to help her pay thousands of dollars, while an illegal is allowed free medical. It makes me sick.

We have had so many lives lost because of illegals, many who had previous arrests. One case was where a 3 year old child got run over by a drunken illegal who had I don't remember how many previous arrests. So many people that would still be alive today had the laws been enforced. Arizona has every right to protect its' citizens. If I knew I could save a life, or that one more person could be employed by following Arizona's law, I would be happy to pull out any papers or ID's that was neccesary. The feds have failed them. Government and greedy corporations have failed them. I don't blame Arizona one bit. And Mexico's president has no right sticking his nose in our business. He doesn't even take care of his own people.

I agree as well. They don't care about anyone else but themselves. (From the look of your stories.)

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new2forum

Yep, and now explain to us how this process works? You simply fail to pay taxes once and they bust in and take everything you and your family own? Funny, I could of sworn it didn't work that way! :rolleyes:

IN addition to that, there is legal precedent for confiscation of property used in the committing of a crime. And for failure to pay taxes.

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Agent X

Well, they'll do things like garnish your wages and raid every single one of your savings before they put a lien on your home. But otherwise, that;s pretty much the way it works. If you do not pay your taxes the IRS does have the power to take away anything they can to force you to pay for it.

Now the Constitution does give the Government the power to levy taxes, but I'm not entirely sure if it means that kind of a system.

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new2forum

"No, let me help you out: a person squandering their money irresponsibly is the equal to a person knowingly committing a crime. My point is that the person's family suffers when they lose the house for nonpayment of the mortgage, and they sadly will also suffer if they lose the house or business for knowingly breaking the law by hiring illegal immigrants.

I suppose that the wife (or husband) can also say "Hey, is Concita here legally? if not, we have to fire her or we will lose the house." A businessman's partners could say "are all our employees documented? If not, we will lose the business."

So what you're telling me then, is that your only basis for comparison as to whether something is "just like" something else is the end result?!!!

"Why don't you tell me how one runs a business from prison, and how the deprivation of liberty is somehow more palatable than the confiscation of property used during the commission of a crime?"

So you're admitting you're not going to answer me? I asked you a question, why are you ignoring it by asking me one in return? You made the claim that prison is ineffective. Yet you quite obviously failed to think it through, as you were erroneously comparing a hardened criminal with a simple average Joe businessman.

In this case, you were wrong. Prison is quite the deterent to an average Joe thrown into prison side by side with hardened criminals. While in prison, there will be no hiring of illegals. So for the 2nd time, I ask you to explain to me how this would not stop or at least greatly reduce the hiring of illegals?

Your claim:

Prisons are overcrowded and ineffective, and create harder criminals.

Ineffective? Really? Create harder criminals?

Really, it seems as if you don't even realize there is a distinction between criminals:

Street criminals

White collar crime

Had you known this, you would not have made the blanket statement you did above. If you stand by your statement, then please show me evidence that sending Average Joe slightly wealthy business owner to prison is going to have him pop out a hardened criminal - Lol!!

Also, while prison may not be an effective deterrent to violent criminals, nearly every article, book, text I've read on sociology would show that you're wrong when it comes to white color crime. In fact, here's a quote from John Braithwait from NU on "Controlling Corporate Crime: Sociologist John Braithwaite (1999) argues that strong criminal prosecution is an effective way to deter corporate crime. "Corporate executives can be deterred from crime more easily than other criminals because they fear falling within the profession." (You can find stacks, upon stacks of evidence to support this NeoG)

These are not career criminals; these are people who have a lot to lose! Not some desperate street thug with nowhere to go, who knows only crime. You yourself mentioned earlier that the illegal’s are "coming here for the jobs. Remove their reason for coming here and they'll stop coming." Not verbatim, but it's the gist of what you said. Do you really believe this? Because if you do, then I'll say checkmate with:

These business owners hire illegal’s to save money. That's it, greed is the motivating factor right? Not some base, animalistic desire to kill, rape, etc. that you’re going to find in hardened street criminals!

Well then, punish them with severe financial penalties, and the threat of prison for repeat offenses, and it's no longer worth it for them to continue hiring illegals! Remove the financial benefit by punishing with a severe fine that wipes out any money they would have saved by hiring an illegal, and then some

Bingo! Now, once caught and fined, they are put on a probationary "watch list" where they are watched closely for several years for repeat offenses. I know business owners quite well. Heck, I consult, train, finance, and structure their businesses for a living. Average Joe business owner would be scared out of his whits, and walk the straight and narrow if he knew that the next "Strike" against him would land him in jail, or prison, at which point he’d lose credibility, money, and more.

Very few would risk it after they lost all the money they thought they were saving, plus paid through the nose, and have now earned themselves a Big Brother watch-dog... Heck, there’s been plenty of research to suggest that public humiliation is one of the single most effective deterrents for white collar crime.

Business owners work hard for their image, their brand. The fear of public humiliation is a strong deterrent.

But please, come back and show me the evidence that I asked for, but this time, actually allow for the difference in mind-set of violent street criminals, and white collar crime.

Edited by new2forum

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new2forum

You're fined is the answer. You are given an opportunity to pay (And depending on the amount owed, and if it is owed due to retroactive reasons, errors, or active dodging of taxes), and property seizure etc. come into play if the person is unable or unwilling to pay what he or she owes. So no, they don't bust in and start taking everything in a run of the mill incident.

Perhaps you're thinking of extreme cases, which come with extenuating circumstances that are seen by the common citizen. Very different ends of the spectrum we're discussing here.

Well, they'll do things like garnish your wages and raid every single one of your savings before they put a lien on your home. But otherwise, that;s pretty much the way it works. If you do not pay your taxes the IRS does have the power to take away anything they can to force you to pay for it.

Now the Constitution does give the Government the power to levy taxes, but I'm not entirely sure if it means that kind of a system.

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Astute One

What happens if BO sides with Arizona and the US rounds up and deports all illegals? The cash drain on America from Mexico will stop; however, what will this do to Mexico? 35% of Mexicos GNP comes from Illegals. What happens when 35% of a countries GNP suddenly is taken away? This will collapse the Mexican economy.

If a tiny country like Greece, which doesn't have hardly any natural resources, can affect the European economy and the US economy in such a way that potentially the European economy could dive and take the US with it, what will happen when our southern neighbor's economy collapses because the US cuts them off?

It appears to me that the US economy, eventhough the cash drain has stopped, will dive worse than Greece is causing a dive in Europe. This is a very sensitive issue. BO can't support AZ for this reason and for others as well. I predict he stays neutral and pressures Mexico to step up to the plate and ask for US help. Then BO can take action and give the appearance he is working boths sides of the fence.

Seems to me, this is why we saw the grand standing this week, and this is why nothing has been done about this since NAFTA was started.

Time will tell.

Edited by Astute One

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Agent X

So your argument is that we should let people get away with crimes because obeying the law will hurt the economy so much that it will cause a depression so in order to avoid a depression we should just let illegals come here anyway?

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AROCES

What happens if BO sides with Arizona and the US rounds up and deports all illegals? The cash drain on America from Mexico will stop; however, what will this do to Mexico? 35% of Mexicos GNP comes from Illegals. What happens when 35% of a countries GNP suddenly is taken away? This will collapse the Mexican economy.

If a tiny country like Greece, which doesn't have hardly any natural resources, can affect the European economy and the US economy in such a way that potentially the European economy could dive and take the US with it, what will happen when our southern neighbor's economy collapses because the US cuts them off?

It appears to me that the US economy, eventhough the cash drain has stopped, will dive worse than Greece is causing a dive in Europe. This is a very sensitive issue. BO can't support AZ for this reason and for others as well. I predict he stays neutral and pressures Mexico to step up to the plate and ask for US help. Then BO can take action and give the appearance he is working boths sides of the fence.

Seems to me, this is why we saw the grand standing this week, and this is why nothing has been done about this since NAFTA was started.

Time will tell.

Then let us not touch any criminal activity that generates some kind of business, correct?

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Startraveler

35% of Mexicos GNP comes from Illegals.

According to this, remittances peaked in 2007 at $26.07 billion.

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Astute One

So your argument is that we should let people get away with crimes because obeying the law will hurt the economy so much that it will cause a depression so in order to avoid a depression we should just let illegals come here anyway?

Absolutely not. We need to kick them out, but slowly. And as we kick them out, we need to let more in legally and make a requirement of all legal green hard holders to have health insurance. Health insurance should be a prerequisite for obtaining a green card. The immigrants should be required to maintain private insurance until they get citizenship. Then, they need to follow the same rules regarding H.insurance as citizens.

We also need to set all other kinds of rules for them like learning English FIRST. Like obtaining a SS# with a green card. Like submitting to a criminal background check. This way we can minimize the cash drain on the US and this will help us get good honest tax paying law abiding workers from Mexico.

And when they break these rules, we should adopt the rules of their home country in punishing illegal immigrants. If it is deporting, we deport them with no chance of legal return. If their home country send illegal immigrants to prison for 10 years, we should send them to prison, then deport them. If a countries punishment is death, we should execute them.

I bet many walk the straight and narrow line and the situation will improve in the US.

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Neognosis
Yep, and now explain to us how this process works? You simply fail to pay taxes once and they bust in and take everything you and your family own? Funny, I could of sworn it didn't work that way!

IN addition to the power of the IRS to confiscate property for non-repayment, many states, my state included, have laws enabling the confiscation of property USED IN A CRIME. Like your business or home is if you knowingly hire illegal aliens.

In this case, you were wrong. Prison is quite the deterent to an average Joe thrown into prison side by side with hardened criminals. While in prison, there will be no hiring of illegals. So for the 2nd time, I ask you to explain to me how this would not stop or at least greatly reduce the hiring of illegals?

I didn't claim that prison would not be somewhat effective. However, it costs money and benefits the state not. The confiscation of property used in a crime is not only a deterrent, but is of benefit to the state.

You make a good argument about prison being a deterrent to some businessmen. I think confiscation of property would be a more powerful and also more beneficial policy. You make good points about the difference between white and blue collar crime, I concede.

Very few would risk it after they lost all the money they thought they were saving

why is taking money or freedom away from people OK, but taking property not? Explain your reasoning here. And again, we already have legal precedent for the confiscation of property used in a crime. IN addition to the ridiculous drug laws the flood the prisons, we are going to add to the problem and support the corporatization of the prison system by adding more white collar criminals to an overcrowded system?

Edited by Neognosis

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Astute One

According to this, remittances peaked in 2007 at $26.07 billion.

What's your point? That's one bank of hundreds more, and it doesn't account for cash which most illegals deal in.

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Startraveler

What's your point? That's one bank of hundreds more, and it doesn't account for cash which most illegals deal in.

No, those aren't figures from one bank of many, those are economy-wide statistics compiled by the central Bank of Mexico. It's like the Fed putting out statistics on the U.S. economy. For example, here's an update from last month:

Mexico's central bank says the
amount of money sent home by Mexicans working abroad
dropped 12 percent in the first quarter of the year compared to 2009.

The Bank of Mexico says
the country received $4.8 billion
in remittances in the first three months of the year, compared to $5.5 billion during the same period in 2009.

Mexico's remittances have been falling for more than a year amid an economic crisis making it difficult for migrants to find jobs in the U.S. However, a statement from the bank Wednesday says the pace of the decline is slowing.

Remittances are Mexico's No. 2 source of foreign income after oil exports. Almost 12 million Mexicans live in the United States.

Notice they're not talking about one bank, they're talking about how much money the entire country is pulling in through remittances. So my point is: where are you getting 35% from?

Edited by Startraveler

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Astute One

No, those aren't figures from one bank of many, those are economy-wide statistics compiled by the central Bank of Mexico. It's like the Fed putting out statistics on the U.S. economy. For example, here's an update from last month:

Mexico's central bank says the
amount of money sent home by Mexicans working abroad
dropped 12 percent in the first quarter of the year compared to 2009.

The Bank of Mexico says
the country received $4.8 billion
in remittances in the first three months of the year, compared to $5.5 billion during the same period in 2009.

Mexico's remittances have been falling for more than a year amid an economic crisis making it difficult for migrants to find jobs in the U.S. However, a statement from the bank Wednesday says the pace of the decline is slowing.

Remittances are Mexico's No. 2 source of foreign income after oil exports. Almost 12 million Mexicans live in the United States.

Notice they're not talking about one bank, they're talking about how much money the entire country is pulling in through remittances. So my point is: where are you getting 35% from?

I am not saying your are wrong, startraveler. I got the info from your liberal news station CNN. They reported 35% from illegals and 30% from illegal drugs. The numbers seem staggeringly high to me, but that is what was reported yesterday on cable channel CNN. It doesn't seem possible that 65% of GDP is drugs and US immigrants. Now if it's 65% from US, that's is more believable, but that is not what was said.

So who is lying or spinning the truth, the Bank of Mexico or liberal CNN, or both because it doesn't seem that it's me or you?

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