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Ryinrea

Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

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Rosewin

Nationalism does pose a challenge indeed but we have to remember that nationalism is of recent origin and not guaranteed to last. For most of history people accepted new rulers not because they were forced in a war but because the other had a better way of life to offer. So even when wars did take place others simply found ways to cooperate with each other. It is certain that even today you have regular Israelis and Palestinians working side by side with their primary thought on their shared task thus bonding them.

Not that I am saying that a united Islamic caliphate is likely to occur, most likely it won't, and there is also the more ancient division between Shiite and Sunni.

It is almost certain that supra-states are the thing of the future though.

Edited by Rosewin

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J.B.

You have to be careful with your last comment. . . it's not the Jews who exert power in regards to Israel, it's the Xionist Jews. Trust me, if the entire Jewish people were concerned with Israel beyond family members there and the general view of the world on them as a distinct people, Israel would be larger than it is.

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Black Red Devil

Nationalism does pose a challenge indeed but we have to remember that nationalism is of recent origin and not guaranteed to last. For most of history people accepted new rulers not because they were forced in a war but because the other had a better way of life to offer. So even when wars did take place others simply found ways to cooperate with each other. It is certain that even today you have regular Israelis and Palestinians working side by side with their primary thought on their shared task thus bonding them.

Not that I am saying that a united Islamic caliphate is likely to occur, most likely it won't, and there is also the more ancient division between Shiite and Sunni.

It is almost certain that supra-states are the thing of the future though.

If you mean something like the EU, then I agree. If people are forced to live under a dominant nationality, then I don't think so.

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Black Red Devil

You have to be careful with your last comment. . . it's not the Jews who exert power in regards to Israel, it's the Xionist Jews. Trust me, if the entire Jewish people were concerned with Israel beyond family members there and the general view of the world on them as a distinct people, Israel would be larger than it is.

I agree with your statement about the Zionist Jews but don't understand how Israel would be larger.

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J.B.

If Israel were not simply Zionist, but driven by the Jewish majority, I am sure there would have been an even larger wave of immigrants, and if they ran on a military campaign like now, they'd have had even more soldiers, needing more land, and Israel would be a Jewish superstate.

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Waldo87

There will never be a united Islamic caliphate because while many share an Islamic culture, brought on by the expansion of Islam, many belong to different tribes, races etc. Iran for example are Persians and don't even share the same language as the arabs, which are mainly found on the Saudi Arabian peninsula. Anyway, if you ask me, the main reason is because Jews have a lot of financial power in the US and in the world.

As Jewish author and political science professor Benjamin Ginsberg has pointed out: [3]

“Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade’s corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely two percent of the nation’s population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation’s largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times... The role and influence of Jews in American politics is equally marked...

“Jews are only three percent of the nation’s population and comprise eleven percent of what this study defines as the nation’s elite. However, Jews constitute more than 25 percent of the elite journalists and publishers, more than 17 percent of the leaders of important voluntary and public interest organizations, and more than 15 percent of the top ranking civil servants.”

(Source - Benjamin Ginsberg, The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State (University of Chicago, 1993), pp. 1, 103.)

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J.B.

Yes. . . the religion favors hard work and discipline, you'd have to be ignorant of that to not expect them to be in serious power. I won't play the jealousy card, the advantages involved are purely in training, and can be/are picked up by people outside the Jewish religion. Hence why they only account for half the billionaires, instead of all. This same discipline and hard work is part of why the Israelis are advanced in military and medical tech, and why they can hold their own when surrounded by enemies.

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Black Red Devil

If Israel were not simply Zionist, but driven by the Jewish majority, I am sure there would have been an even larger wave of immigrants, and if they ran on a military campaign like now, they'd have had even more soldiers, needing more land, and Israel would be a Jewish superstate.

I might be wrong but I thought its the Zionist movement that's all about (amongst other things) the land of Israel which was promised to them by God through Abraham and which consists of territories that are currently part of Syria, Lebanon and other bits and pieces of land from other nations around there? Not sure extra immigration of Jews would have equaled more conquests.

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J.B.

A lot of the land they took was only taken because their enemies struck first. I'd imagine the bigger the immigration wave, the bigger the negative reaction from the locals. More attacks, more soldiers at hand, more land taken.

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Black Red Devil

As Jewish author and political science professor Benjamin Ginsberg has pointed out: [3]

"Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade's corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely two percent of the nation's population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation's largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times... The role and influence of Jews in American politics is equally marked...

"Jews are only three percent of the nation's population and comprise eleven percent of what this study defines as the nation's elite. However, Jews constitute more than 25 percent of the elite journalists and publishers, more than 17 percent of the leaders of important voluntary and public interest organizations, and more than 15 percent of the top ranking civil servants."

(Source - Benjamin Ginsberg, The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State (University of Chicago, 1993), pp. 1, 103.)

Hence the huge influence of opinion in the US on the situation in the ME.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil

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TheResearcher

Here's a maritime experts take on the video footage:

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Erikl

Sure, what a hipocrisy. If you are supporting the Kurds then be fair and let others support the Palestinians.

The PKK organization is classified,just like the Hamas, a terrorist organization who targets mostly civilians, just like Hamas. Sound familiar?

Up untill yesterday Israel was way up Turkey's a**, and now all of a sudden you call them names that can very well describe Israel too.

Israel let a friend down, stabbed him in the back. But be careful what you are asking for. Turkey's army is not poor and stupid. It is one of the most organized armys in the world.

Anyway, out of this a good thing is comming. Greeks and Turks helping each other. I love that. Thanks Israel.

You have a rare gift of making enemies.

I didn't say I support the PKK in anyway - I said I support Kurdish rights for statehood, and atleast Kurdish rights in Turkey, which is almost non-existant (Kurdish member of parliament was sentenced to jail for speaking Kurdish in the parliament. On the other hand Arabic is an official language in Israel).

Anyhow the Kurds in Iraq have managed to build a democracy. The Palestinians in the territories have managed to create a Taliban-like regime and a police-state govern by PLO fascists.

Israel didn't let a friend down nor did we stab them in the back - it's the other way around. Erdogan has been bashing Israel on every occasion for the last two years, and we didn't say a thing. I think the fact our leaders continued to suck up to the Turks it's why it gotten even worse.

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J.B.

Well, to be fair, there's a concentrated Kurdish population in at least three different countries, and in the land distribution post WW2 there should have been a nation named Kurdistan for them all to live in, rather than splitting the tribe into three damn pieces split by national borders.

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ninjadude

If Israel were not simply Zionist, but driven by the Jewish majority, I am sure there would have been an even larger wave of immigrants, and if they ran on a military campaign like now, they'd have had even more soldiers, needing more land, and Israel would be a Jewish superstate.

Fortunately not all worldwide jews agree with the craziness of the current Israeli government.

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J.B.

Very fortunately. I'm glad they don't. I'm hoping you were watching that entire debate and not cherrypicking to make it look like I favored a super-Israel, cause I honestly agree with your sentiment, Ninja.

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MARAB0D

Fortunately not all worldwide jews agree with the craziness of the current Israeli government.

What do you find crazy about the current Israeli government? It does not include any Zionists, as far as I know, and is entirely a secular body, operating within the frames of a secular Constitution. Any democratically elected government somehow reflects the opinions of the population - and I cannot notice any protests within Israel about the boat incident. It seems the Jews more or less agree with what their government does, as they know it does its best for them to survive. It is all very simple - do not violate the national borders, and your life would not be threatened by any commandos. Because violation of the borders is a disrespect to the national sovereignty and Laws, and the task of the government is to defend both on any expense, if this even requires claiming a war, not saying shooting several boy-scouts.

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jeem

Says it all.

By the way, where were the brave Turkish defenders? I think I heard they were "protecting" those ships.

They were unarmed and those jionist were armed

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Yamato

There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man and they are stupid

Love your signature quote but you're missing the first half of Eisenhower's quote that identifies what those things are. ;)

Just saw this is from 2010 :huh:

so, nevermind

Edited by Yamato

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and then

They were unarmed and those jionist were armed

Clearly inaccurate. There were dozens of knives and metal bars and the like. The commandos were severely beaten - plainly seen on film. There is a rumor that one of the passengers was shot in the back of the head. If that is true then it should be investigated but other than that I think the Israelis were justified in defending their lives. I believe they should have waited until the vessel was within 12 miles of the coast before boarding it though.

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jeem

Clearly inaccurate. There were dozens of knives and metal bars and the like. The commandos were severely beaten - plainly seen on film. There is a rumor that one of the passengers was shot in the back of the head. If that is true then it should be investigated but other than that I think the Israelis were justified in defending their lives. I believe they should have waited until the vessel was within 12 miles of the coast before boarding it though.

I don't think you would dare facing a merciless jionist who is armed with a automatic rifle with a knife in your hand. Unless you really need to defend yourself from that jionist.

The conclusion is the jionist attack first.

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and then

I don't think you would dare facing a merciless jionist who is armed with a automatic rifle with a knife in your hand. Unless you really need to defend yourself from that jionist.

The conclusion is the jionist attack first.

The ship was where it was because the crew and protesters wanted to break a legal blockade of one nation against an entity that is at war with them. Those on the ship would not have been harmed had they not instigated hostilities. Other ships were boarded at the same time with no incidents and no injuries. THESE people on the Marmara came looking for a fight and they got it.

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