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Ryinrea

Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

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Karlis

A video clip = "On board Gaza's Freedom Flotilla".

How many sides are there to a story?

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DieChecker

Except for the inconvenient fact that Israel wasn't the aggressor here. These people were trying to violate the blockade. Israel boarded the ships to steer them away, and the Israelis were attacked and reacted in self-defense.

Come on PI. Everything I've read says it was international waters and the commandos dropped from helocopters and waded in. Effectively they are no better then Somali pirates. Do those people not have a right to defend their ships and persons? This is bad... even for the Israelis.

You may want to rethink a Self-Defense plea.

Can anyone point to a UN vote that sactioned Israel's blockade, or is it one sided?

Obama should send a destroyer or some other small ship to travel with them on the next run, then it will be an act of War.

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Pseudo Intellectual

You may want to rethink a Self-Defense plea.

They wanted to provoke Israel. They had it coming. These people regularly do this. Sometimes Israel allows them to do it, sometimes they don't. Either way, trying to break the blockade and attacking Israeli troops when they try to stop you is never a good thing.

Can anyone point to a UN vote that sactioned Israel's blockade, or is it one sided?

The UN is a collection of Jew-hating third-world hellholes. Why should we care what they think? Look at their Human Rights an Security Councils. You want support and approval from those people?

Obama should send a destroyer or some other small ship to travel with them on the next run, then it will be an act of War.

Nice fantasy, but I sincerely hope it doesn't happen. For every one's sake.

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GreatFenris

They wanted to provoke Israel. They had it coming. These people regularly do this. Sometimes Israel allows them to do it, sometimes they don't. Either way, trying to break the blockade and attacking Israeli troops when they try to stop you is never a good thing.

The UN is a collection of Jew-hating third-world hellholes. Why should we care what they think? Look at their Human Rights an Security Councils. You want support and approval from those people?

Nice fantasy, but I sincerely hope it doesn't happen. For every one's sake.

And you reveal your true colours. Depressing :/

And as to why the UN should be listened to? Because so far it's the best option we have in the world. And while some of it's members might be less than superb it is still the best way out.(You do know that some could add Israel to your list of hellholes right? It's a dirty trick to play)

Edited by GreatFenris

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Pseudo Intellectual

Yes, indeed. But I prefer logical arguments, not emotional ones.

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GreatFenris

Yes, indeed. But I prefer logical arguments, not emotional ones.

Two messages ago you claimed the UN was made up of "Jew-hating hellholes" Sorry, but my old rhetoric teacher would frown at your claim of logical arguments.

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Rosewin

The UN's position thus far has been to calculate that the amount of humanitarian aid that Israel allows into Gaza every month and it is less than a quarter of the total amount needed according to the UN. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) also recognizes a few Palestinian refugee camps which in the past have been attacked and bombed by Israel using both ground and air attacks. This incident is just another massacre in a long line of them commited by Israel.

Edited by Rosewin

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Ginger

Ok, I've read through this thread and Pseudo Intellectual has been right in every fact that he said. It is pointless to argue against facts like who is in control of Israel and who controls Gaze. Facts are facts. It is troubling that this may have been done in daylight for a "better show for publicity." If you want to read the whole quote go to his first post in this thread.

Pseudo also never said he condoned Israel's actions. He merely stated that they were trespassing. We don't fully know what happened yet, it will be further investigated on. If the Israeli forces were not truly attacked and came on shooting then we have a problem. The world will frown upon Israel but not true action will be taken because Israel can legally justify it's action.

The Korean peninsula has been extremely unstable lately. If a North Korean ship sailed into South Korea's waters and a similar event happened we would be still supporting South Korea. I know this is an entirely different problem, but it's worth while to think about it for a bit and see how perception changes everything.

Do I support Israel? Sometimes. Do I trust them? No.

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GreatFenris

Ok, I've read through this thread and Pseudo Intellectual has been right in every fact that he said. It is pointless to argue against facts like who is in control of Israel and who controls Gaze. Facts are facts. It is troubling that this may have been done in daylight for a "better show for publicity." If you want to read the whole quote go to his first post in this thread.

Pseudo also never said he condoned Israel's actions. He merely stated that they were trespassing. We don't fully know what happened yet, it will be further investigated on. If the Israeli forces were not truly attacked and came on shooting then we have a problem. The world will frown upon Israel but not true action will be taken because Israel can legally justify it's action.

The Korean peninsula has been extremely unstable lately. If a North Korean ship sailed into South Korea's waters and a similar event happened we would be still supporting South Korea. I know this is an entirely different problem, but it's worth while to think about it for a bit and see how perception changes everything.

Do I support Israel? Sometimes. Do I trust them? No.

Ah, put the problem here is this; Initial reports claimed this happened on International Waters. Thus any hostile action taken against the ships are illegal. Had the Israeli's waited a little bit longer they could have confiscated the ships when they entered their territorial waters.

Anyhow, 28 minutes until the Israeli government is to hold a press conference. Let's hope things will clarify there.

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MARAB0D

As soon as Gaza officially is a part of Israel, it seems Israel has a right to control the border crossings into it, be it by land or by sea. If Hamas was not shelling Jewish settlements as a part of their routine, there could be some questions, but by now do not see any. A group of enthusiasts decided to breach national borders - and got partially shot, what is surprising? And what Obama or any other foreign leader has to do with this?

I am not a Jew, but I cannot understand why some people from other countries decide who can enter the sovereign state and select what to do inside it and whom to support there. To me this all is an Israeli internal affair (I mean Gaza problems), so no provocators, calling themselves "peace activists" are entitled to teach the elected government how to react on some outside actions. When someone goes deep in politics, the bet is always the personal life - so they have a full right to make this bet. Tomorrow I may have a phase shift and decide to intrude through US borders to protect native Americans - of course this would be my decision and my own risk. The developing situation is ugly, however the foreigners have nothing to do there at all, they must be concerned about their own countries.

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DieChecker

Pseudo also never said he condoned Israel's actions. He merely stated that they were trespassing. We don't fully know what happened yet, it will be further investigated on. If the Israeli forces were not truly attacked and came on shooting then we have a problem. The world will frown upon Israel but not true action will be taken because Israel can legally justify it's action.

I think Israel can Justify their action, but as to if it is legal....

Was it legal for Iraq to invade Kuwait? Was it legal for Argentina to attack the Falklands? Was it legal for Hitler to seize the Rhineland?

The entire arguement centers on whether Gaza is a Nation or not. If it is a province of Israel, then it is an internal matter. If it is a seperate nation, then the world is involved.

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Cradle of Fish

Intervening to correct injustices committed by the government is the American way though. Why is Israel any better than Iraq, pre-invasion?

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DieChecker

Ah, put the problem here is this; Initial reports claimed this happened on International Waters. Thus any hostile action taken against the ships are illegal. Had the Israeli's waited a little bit longer they could have confiscated the ships when they entered their territorial waters.

An attack in International waters is simply Piracy.

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MARAB0D

I think Israel can Justify their action, but as to if it is legal....

Was it legal for Iraq to invade Kuwait? Was it legal for Argentina to attack the Falklands? Was it legal for Hitler to seize the Rhineland?

The entire arguement centers on whether Gaza is a Nation or not. If it is a province of Israel, then it is an internal matter. If it is a seperate nation, then the world is involved.

Gaza before 1967 was a part of Egypt - but Egypt makes no territorial claims on it. On the contrary, Egypt seems happy it belongs to someone else now, and tries to support Israeli blockade of this nice hornet nest. Therefore, Gaza never was a nation, and the consideration like that does not exist in the international relationships. Gaza is a rebellious area, populated by the Arabs, expelled from Israel-proper in 1950s. Most of those Arabs were not from Palestine, but from Iraq, and re-settled to Israel just before the Jews moved into it. Their presence there was illegal from day one, and this is why they have the extended refugee status, as while surely belonging to Arab nations, they definitely lack the roots in and connections to any of the existing countries. Gaza dwellers present a form of Gypsies, no more. Talking of national borders and historical rights, Arabs themselves are not a native population to the area, they are the conquerors, the incomers. Their home is Saudi Arabia, or generally Arabian peninsula - not Sinai, not Egypt, not Libya, not Algeria... So it is the force to decide, if they stay in Israel or move elsewhere, and the degree this force is applied in depends solely on Israeli government. It is all not anyone else's business at all.

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Rosewin

You are forgetting that Israel attacked maritime vessels flying flags from other nations. Thus it is the business of others now. Trying to spin this as simply an Israeli domestic affair might not be the best angle.

Edited by Rosewin

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Rhomphaia

People seem to be forgetting two things.

First, once this aid reaches the hands of Hamas, there is very little oversight as to where it goes. It cannot be concluded with any real certainty that the bulk of it will reach those it was intended for.

Second, Israel is in a state of war with Hamas, and in general, the Palestinian leadership (whoever it is at the moment). This ship was moving to provide material aid (probably unintentionally) to an enemy of Israel. This dovetails with the first point.

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Moon Monkey

The international community is also going to force Israel to let the aid through anyways in the end so they were foolish in the first place to think they have the power to disallow a humanitarian aid mission.

The international community has no need to force Israel to let the aid through. The israelis were happy to have the ships dock at Ashdod and the aid be taken overland. They have been saying this from the moment this flotilla was announced. But that would not have served the organisers PR purposes.

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Rhomphaia

The international community has no need to force Israel to let the aid through. The israelis were happy to have the ships dock at Ashdod and the aid be taken overland. They have been saying this from the moment this flotilla was announced. But that would not have served the organisers PR purposes.

I know, this whole thing was basically a big 'human rights' protest in the flavor of the people fighting japanese whalers near Antarctica. However, this time it got people killed when it was completely unnecessary to engage in the actions that put them in that situation.

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Rosewin

I am sure the Israeli government would have been happy for the flotilla to be redirected to Ashod so most of the reconstruction material that is needed in Gaza could be denied them such as concrete. These materials are necessary for reconstruction but Israel does not allow them in.

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ExpandMyMind

I am sure the Israeli government would have been happy for the flotilla to be redirected to Ashod so most of the reconstruction material that is needed in Gaza could be denied them such as concrete. These materials are necessary for reconstruction but Israel does not allow them in.

excellent point - and one that is constantly overlooked.

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danielost

do you know what a block aid is.

that is where you stop all shipments in and out.

also did you know that isreal offered to deliver this aid themselves.

the pals refused, which could mean that there is more than just aid on those ships, like weapons.

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danielost

I am sure the Israeli government would have been happy for the flotilla to be redirected to Ashod so most of the reconstruction material that is needed in Gaza could be denied them such as concrete. These materials are necessary for reconstruction but Israel does not allow them in.

hamas has a record of taking aid and turning it into weapons, not reconstructing or even feeding the people.

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danielost

Yes, so the IDF says, or is there other sources for the claim of being attacked?

And forgive me, but sending troops to ships carrying vital supplies of a non-combat variant automatically disqualifies someone from being the victim. Had they wanted they could have used naval ships to forcefully escort the convoy to an Israeli port, instead there are 16 dead so far.

if they had wanted to kill people they could have used naval ships to sink them, no danger to themselves.

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danielost

As soon as Gaza officially is a part of Israel, it seems Israel has a right to control the border crossings into it, be it by land or by sea. If Hamas was not shelling Jewish settlements as a part of their routine, there could be some questions, but by now do not see any. A group of enthusiasts decided to breach national borders - and got partially shot, what is surprising? And what Obama or any other foreign leader has to do with this?

I am not a Jew, but I cannot understand why some people from other countries decide who can enter the sovereign state and select what to do inside it and whom to support there. To me this all is an Israeli internal affair (I mean Gaza problems), so no provocators, calling themselves "peace activists" are entitled to teach the elected government how to react on some outside actions. When someone goes deep in politics, the bet is always the personal life - so they have a full right to make this bet. Tomorrow I may have a phase shift and decide to intrude through US borders to protect native Americans - of course this would be my decision and my own risk. The developing situation is ugly, however the foreigners have nothing to do there at all, they must be concerned about their own countries.

isreal doesnt control the egyptian border. but the egyptians wont let aid through there either. where's the outrage.

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