TYT on the GAZA raid

[Ryinrea]

I like Cenk, and he is right about Israel being the bully in this....

[Agent X]

No he isn't. Just more anti-Israel hypocrisy in action.

But it doesn't matter. people will believe what they want to believe.

[Ryinrea]

No he isn't. Just more anti-Israel hypocrisy in action.

But it doesn't matter. people will believe what they want to believe.

Uh it is not anti Israel when he critical of the Israeli government.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Ryinrea

[Agent X]

It is when he calls Israel the bully when it is not.

[chaoszerg]

No offence but if there is a blockade and you attempt to break through it, even if you are claiming to be bringing aid, you are in the wrong.

[Ryinrea]

It is when he calls Israel the bully when it is not.

Yes it is the bully in this case of the GAZA blockade

[TheResearcher]

Yes it is the bully in this case of the GAZA blockade

We beg to differ.

[Lord Umbarger]

No offence but if there is a blockade and you attempt to break through it, even if you are claiming to be bringing aid, you are in the wrong.

I look at it this way, Israel has a blockade around the Gaza ports. Gaza is technically a part of Israel. Egypt doesn't claim it and it has no formal representation in the UN. If any nation attempts to run any blockade, they face the same risks that any other nation faces when they violate a blockade. It MAY be wrong but, it's certainly NOT illegal. Saying that it IS illegal is the same as saying the that the U.S. Coast Guard doesn't have a legal right to stop and inspect ships who are attempting to enter U.S. territorial waters.

[Antimony]

I thought the sticky point was that they stopped the ships whilst still in international waters?

[Lord Umbarger]

This is from a Turkish source:

At 4:30 a.m. on Monday the Israeli army launched an operation against the aid flotilla. In the attack, carried out 77 miles from Israeli waters, Israeli forces boarded the ships from helicopters.

The Turks say it happened HERE....

If it DID happen at 77 miles out, it may well be a breach of the Law of the Sea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, as I understand international law, this would be illegal too:

A submarine from a Western country penetrated Israeli territorial waters last week, an incursion thought to have been an intelligence-gathering operation. The vessel was identified by the Israeli Navy 18 kilometers from shore, and fled shortly after discovery.

(Israeli) Army Radio reported yesterday that the incident occurred Wednesday night off the Haifa coast. The boundary of Israeli territorial waters is 12 nautical miles from the shore, or a little more than 20 kilometers, and the submarine was discovered two kilometers into the space. Possible Turkish Sub did THIS...

As would this...

Four Qassam rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip towards Israel on Thursday evening. Three rockets landed in open areas in the Western Negev region and one landed inside the Gaza Strip. No injuries or damage were reported. Of the three rockets that landed in Israeli territory, one struck near Sderot while two hit the Ashkelon area.

Four Hamas Rockets hit Israel HERE

But, none of those articles were on the MSM today.

[danielost]

I thought the sticky point was that they stopped the ships whilst still in international waters?

They can stop ships in international waters if they think they are carring conterband. this could include people weapons or even food.

all nations have a right to inspect any vessel intring one of their ports. and has been istablished, the gaza ports are part of isreal. also all nations have the right to tell any inbound ships which ports they can use. isreal did this in this case as well.

[danielost]

This is from a Turkish source:

At 4:30 a.m. on Monday the Israeli army launched an operation against the aid flotilla. In the attack, carried out 77 miles from Israeli waters, Israeli forces boarded the ships from helicopters.

The Turks say it happened HERE....

If it DID happen at 77 miles out, it may well be a breach of the Law of the Sea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, as I understand international law, this would be illegal too:

A submarine from a Western country penetrated Israeli territorial waters last week, an incursion thought to have been an intelligence-gathering operation. The vessel was identified by the Israeli Navy 18 kilometers from shore, and fled shortly after discovery.

(Israeli) Army Radio reported yesterday that the incident occurred Wednesday night off the Haifa coast. The boundary of Israeli territorial waters is 12 nautical miles from the shore, or a little more than 20 kilometers, and the submarine was discovered two kilometers into the space. Possible Turkish Sub did THIS...

As would this...

Four Qassam rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip towards Israel on Thursday evening. Three rockets landed in open areas in the Western Negev region and one landed inside the Gaza Strip. No injuries or damage were reported. Of the three rockets that landed in Israeli territory, one struck near Sderot while two hit the Ashkelon area.

Four Hamas Rockets hit Israel HERE

But, none of those articles were on the MSM today.

when was the last time the msm reported any rockets launched at isreal.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

A rocket falling on an Israeli kindergarten is rarely heard of in the media outside of Israel. But let the Israelis demolish a house owned by a terrorist and you'll find it in every newspaper and on every channel in the world.

[Ryinrea]

A rocket falling on an Israeli kindergarten is rarely heard of in the media outside of Israel. But let the Israelis demolish a house owned by a terrorist and you'll find it in every newspaper and on every channel in the world.

And Israel firing on a UN school doesn't ring a bell, and the house isn't owned by terrorist are you that dense in to the hate all Muslim propaganda that you can't see that they are Civilians homes not terrorist homes that they demolish, or do you see every person in Gaza as a terrorist?

[Pseudo Intellectual]

And Israel firing on a UN school doesn't ring a bell

Are you serious?

and the house isn't owned by terrorist are you that dense in to the hate all Muslim propaganda that you can't see that they are Civilians homes not terrorist homes that they demolish, or do you see every person in Gaza as a terrorist?

How do you know which house I was referring to?

[sam12six]

They can stop ships in international waters if they think they are carring conterband. this could include people weapons or even food.

You're absolutely right, but doing so is either piracy or an act of war (depending on how the country who was the registrar for the ships reacts).

People can argue both sides of whether the Gaza blockade is legal. There are compelling arguments on both sides. Someone entering Israeli waters to break that blockade can be argued to be breaking international law (or committing an act of war) just as compellingly.

Attacking a ship in international waters cannot be argued to be legal.

I completely understanding Israel (at the very least) insisting on boarding and inspecting ships to be sure there are no weapons on board. The issue is where and how they did it. It's like a police raid that results in an innocent civilian being killed because he thought someone was robbing him and tried to fight back. Unfortunate things like this can happen, but if the cops don't have a warrant or are at the wrong address, they are in the wrong - period. In this case, putting it in the best light for Israel, they were at the wrong address and totally at fault.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

You're absolutely right, but doing so is either piracy or an act of war (depending on how the country who was the registrar for the ships reacts).

People can argue both sides of whether the Gaza blockade is legal. There are compelling arguments on both sides. Someone entering Israeli waters to break that blockade can be argued to be breaking international law (or committing an act of war) just as compellingly.

Attacking a ship in international waters cannot be argued to be legal.

I completely understanding Israel (at the very least) insisting on boarding and inspecting ships to be sure there are no weapons on board. The issue is where and how they did it. It's like a police raid that results in an innocent civilian being killed because he thought someone was robbing him and tried to fight back. Unfortunate things like this can happen, but if the cops don't have a warrant or are at the wrong address, they are in the wrong - period. In this case, putting it in the best light for Israel, they were at the wrong address and totally at fault.

This is from Reuters, which is far from pro-Israeli:

Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal?

(Reuters) - Israel has said it will continue a naval blockade of the Gaza Strip despite growing global pressure to lift the siege after a navy raid on a Turkish ferry carrying aid killed nine activists this week.

What is the legality of the blockade and did Israel's intervention breach international law? Below are some questions and answers on the issue:

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?

Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.

CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."

OPPONENTS HAVE CALLED ISRAEL'S RAID "PIRACY." WAS IT?

No, as under international law it was considered a state action.

"Whether what Israel did is right or wrong, it is not an act of piracy. Piracy deals with private conduct particularly with a pecuniary or financial interest," Kraska said.

[sam12six]

WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.

This is the only part of what you posted that seems to argue with what I said.

12 miles is the international water line, they attacked at 70 miles. That's it.

Based off the part I bolded, this particular Reuters author seems to believe that a country can roam the earth looking to enforce its blockade. This is just not the case. Patrolling and seizing ships within your own territorial waters is legal. It's even legal (from an international law standpoint) to defend the territorial waters of a country you're blockading legally. Outside that, it's either piracy or war.

Look at it this way. If someone takes out a restraining order stating that I'll be arrested if I'm within 500 yards of a given person, the cops can't come arrest me if I get within 3 miles using that restraining order as a justification. There is a legal distance and that must be adhered to (In both cases, an estimate close to the stated distance would probably be considered fine, but not 5 or 6 times the distance). That puts it clearly in illegal territory.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

If they declared their intention is to violate the blockade, they no longer have protection in international waters. And let's not pretend the flotilla was in the Atlantic ocean. They were approaching Gaza, with no hint of stopping, even after being warned and told to dock at Ashdod.

[sam12six]

If they declared their intention is to violate the blockade, they no longer have protection in international waters. And let's not pretend the flotilla was in the Atlantic ocean. They were approaching Gaza, with no hint of stopping, even after being warned and told to dock at Ashdod.

Their declared intention doesn't eliminate the legal restriction. I can declare my intention to trespass on your property all day long. You don't have the right to do anything about it besides telling me what the consequences will be until I actually do. This is no different.

Like I said, I'm not arguing that their blockade is illegal or that they don't have a right to enforce it. I'm arguing that they overstepped their authority by choosing to attack in international waters.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Blockades are serious business. The conflict between Gaza and Israel is more complicated than two grumpy neighbors.

And like I said, when you declare your intention is to violate a blockade, and refuse to change course after being warned numerous times, you no longer have any protection in international waters.

[Ryinrea]

Are you serious?

How do you know which house I was referring to?

Yes I am serious Iserasl kill dozens in UN school

[Moon Monkey]

Yes I am serious Iserasl kill dozens in UN school

Interesting example, but I presume you just linked the first report that suited your argument without having done any real research as this is well known to have been another incorrect initial report due to the media leaping to believe Hamas and put down by the UN later as having been a 'clerical error'.

At the end of April 2009 the UN released a report, corrobarated by the PCHR, that 12 people died in this incident, not 40+, and that they died outside the school, although it is thought some shrapnel did enter the grounds. The only difference between UN, PCHR and israeli reports of the incident is that Israel claims that 9 of the 12 were known Hamas operatives and the PCHR says it was 'several'. Further there are many, many eyewitness reports from local residents that Hamas were firing mortars from the school.

I don't expect you to pay any attention to the actual facts and instead you will just move on to perform another drive-by posting on a subject you seem to know little about and it seems are unwilling to really research.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[Ryinrea]

Moon Monkey, if you don't treat that as people bombing places willnilly than how about the below links?

Israel bomb aid convoy I do pay attention to facts, and the only thing it some eyewitness.

Annan deplores latest Israeli attack in Gaza refugee camp

Or how about Rachele Corrie.

You most likely were ill informed, and do not have any literalism to tell me I don't pay attention the facts. Saying I don't appear to fact is just ridiculous.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Ryinrea

[Moon Monkey]

Yes I am serious Iserasl kill dozens in UN school

Let us finish with your last drive-by posting of facts before we start dealing with the next. What are the facts you are presenting to the thread with this link , which you used to back up an even earlier statement of facts ?

Just the facts please, not some nonsensible rambling.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Moon Monkey