Report: Gaza aid ship had Al Qaeda crew

[Erikl]

Well, not surprisingly enough, Erdogan's flotilla was another way to wage Jihad on Israel, a religious obligation for him.

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[Mac E]

Interesting, I was wondering what the motive was for the raid. Perhaps their intel isn't that bad afterall.

[Fernand0]

Well, not surprisingly enough, Erdogan's flotilla was another way to wage Jihad on Israel, a religious obligation for him.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

And when Muslims kill Jews they are just as barbaric as the latter.

[Waldo87]

Interesting, I was wondering what the motive was for the raid. Perhaps their intel isn't that bad afterall.

So let me get this straight, the IDF had intel beforehand of Forty or so armed al-Qaeda terrorists, equipped with bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles and they landed their commandos on the ship to take them out with 'paint-ball guns'. Unless they found out that al-Qaeda operatives are more afraid of paint pellets than actual bullets that just seems ludacris, even if the ship had civilians on boards when has the IDF previously put the lives of their soldiers at risk for the sake of minimising civilian casualties. Can you quote an instance?. Do you even know the death toll of Palestenian civlians during the recent war with Hamas? Above 1000 and compare that to the deaths of Israelis.

[Runa86]

You know Eirkl, it's nice and all that you care for such things but this blaming of every Muslim leader will only have you pointing your finger everywhere without doing much for obtaining a solution.

If their complaint arises because of the Palestinians, it's the Palestinians you should focus on.

You get into rows with other nations when the problem is at your doorstep.

Above 1000 and compare that to the deaths of Israelis.

Not that I want to get into a discussion of what happened in Gaza, but this is a weak argument in general. Since when do both sides need to have equal loses to make a war 'less bad'? It's a given that each side will want to win with the less number posible of casualties.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Runa86

[Erikl]

even if the ship had civilians on boards when has the IDF previously put the lives of their soldiers at risk for the sake of minimising civilian casualties.

As an IAF officer, I can tell you no operation is allowed if it is known for certain that non-combatants will be killed. And many operations are cancelled if there is a very good chance that civilians will die.

The IDF has the lowest score of non-combatant death tolls. And being that Gaza is rulled by Hamas, among those 1000 death tolls, the majority were Hamas combatants or members. Most of the non-combatants who died, died as a result of Hamas using them as human shields. You know, that's what terrorists do. Shooting on soldiers from a house and holding civilians as hostages, is the way to make the enemy look bad. And terrorism is all about statement, not actuall victories (that's the reason why Hezbollah is no longer just a terrorist organization, but a fully armed Iranian brigade).

P.S

The intelligence was discovered after those 40 al Qaeda members were captured.

[Fernand0]

Killing is wrong no matter who the killers are. Bad people killing bad people is of no interest to me, good people kill no one.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Fernand0

[Erikl]

You know Eirkl, it's nice and all that you care for such things but this blaming of every Muslim leader will only have you pointing your finger everywhere without doing much for obtaining a solution.

If their complaint arises because of the Palestinians, it's the Palestinians you should focus on.

You get into rows with other nations when the problem is at your doorstep.Above 1000 and compare that to the deaths of Israelis.

Not that I want to get into a discussion of what happened in Gaza, but this is a weak argument in general. Since when do both sides need to have equal loses to make a war 'less bad'? It's a given that each side will want to win with the less number posible of casualties. Generally speaking, the winner shouldn't feel bad about winning.

I'm not attacking every muslim leader. I am stating the fact that since 2003, the Turkish leadership is becoming infested with Islamists, who didn't give a d*mn about the secular Palestinian Authority during the second Intifada, but since Gaza has been hijacked by Islamo-fascists (Hamas), is now becoming the "protector of Palestine", or to be more accurate - the defender of Hamas (which only represent a million Palestinians, out of 3.5 million who live in the territories).

Erdogan has declared war on my country and our right to defend ourselves against the mass murder of civilians, which have been bombed by rockets and morters for 8 years. No country would have waited so long to responde - no country. And ofcourse - Erdogan himself wouldn't have waited if the PKK in Turkish Kurdistan would have fired missiles on Turkish towns, or if Cypriot Greeks would have conducted terror raids against illegal Turkish settlers in occupied Cyprus.

Turkish hypocrisy and "Hoozpa" is outrageous.

Killing is wrong no matter who the killers are. Bad people killing bad people is of no interest to me, good people kill no one.

I guess you've never heard about the right of self-defense or the right to live....

[Fernand0]

I guess you've never heard about the right of self-defense or the right to live....

Each side in a war sees the enemy as evil, but there are no good people fighting in a war. Only the survivors of a war's genocide can write the revisionist history books that make the villains the heroes. If the Nazis would have won WWII, it would be the Americans that would be demonized. There would not be grammar Nazis posting in forums, but grammar Americans.

[chaoszerg]

good people kill no one.

No.

Good people try not kill anyone, sometimes it is a necessity though, if it comes to survival or protecting others.

[Fernand0]

No.

Good people try not kill anyone, sometimes it is a necessity though, if it comes to survival or protecting others.

But that inevitably leads to retribution and more killing.

edit

Self defense is permissable, but ultimately if no one would kill no one would be killed in vengeance. We are all humans and should not be killing each other, if there is any creature on Earth intelligent enough not to turn on it's own species it should be humans.

"When you stop to think that we're all God's children, wherever we may live in the world, I couldn't help but say to him, just think how easy his task and mine might be in these meetings that we held if suddenly there was a threat to this world from some other species from another planet outside in the universe. We'd forget all the little local differences that we have between our countries and we would find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this earth together." ~ Ronald Reagan

What this world needs desperately is an alien invasion.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Fernand0

[Waldo87]

Not that I want to get into a discussion of what happened in Gaza, but this is a weak argument in general. Since when do both sides need to have equal loses to make a war 'less bad'? It's a given that each side will want to win with the less number posible of casualties.

Maybe you need to read the whole post, okay i'll have another try, i was talking about the loss of civilian life compared to the deaths of armed forces of IDF, and the IDF policy of risking the lives of their soldiers in order to ensure civilians are not harmed (Since Erikl has explained IDF's position, it makes more sense that they did not expect terrorists on board the ship). You're taking the line out of context. Have you never felt that Israel's military actions have been disproportionate resulting in the needless loss of innocent life? Are saying the deaths of all those people could not have been avoided if more care and thought was given by the IDF during their offensives? If Hamas operaives do indeed hide in schools and use children as shield its okay to blow up the whole school with an air-strike since you obviously cant sacrifice the safety of your soldiers but those operatives need to die? The figures were just to put things in perspective, not to try and paint a prettier picture of what happened?

[Agent X]

but there are no good people fighting in a war.

Oh bull. Tell that to the people who died on 911. Tell that to well, anybody throughout history who were living peaceful lives then because somebody wanted the gold in the name of their God, or just because they thought they were superior, came along and said you must be slaves to us. Then tell those slaves that they aren't good people who just wanted to live their own lives.

I'm sorry, but there are clear cases of aggressors and non-agressors throughout history. And you say there is no one good?

People have a right to defend themselves against agressors. It's only a crock of **** to say they don't.

[TheResearcher]

Killing is wrong no matter who the killers are. Bad people killing bad people is of no interest to me, good people kill no one.

What self righteous bull****.

[Fernand0]

People have a right to defend themselves against agressors. It's only a crock of **** to say they don't.

Two wrongs make a right and 1+1=3.

What this world needs desperately is an alien invasion.

"When you stop to think that we're all God's children, wherever we may live in the world, I couldn't help but say to him, just think how easy his task and mine might be in these meetings that we held if suddenly there was a threat to this world from some other species from another planet outside in the universe. We'd forget all the little local differences that we have between our countries and we would find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this earth together." ~ Ronald Reagan

Edited June 2, 2010 by Fernand0

[Moon Monkey]

Maybe you need to read the whole post, okay i'll have another try, i was talking about the loss of civilian life compared to the deaths of armed forces of IDF, and the IDF policy of risking the lives of their soldiers in order to ensure civilians are not harmed (Since Erikl has explained IDF's position, it makes more sense that they did not expect terrorists on board the ship). You're taking the line out of context. Have you never felt that Israel's military actions have been disproportionate resulting in the needless loss of innocent life? Are saying the deaths of all those people could not have been avoided if more care and thought was given by the IDF during their offensives? If Hamas operaives do indeed hide in schools and use children as shield its okay to blow up the whole school with an air-strike since you obviously cant sacrifice the safety of your soldiers but those operatives need to die? The figures were just to put things in perspective, not to try and paint a prettier picture of what happened?

The figures you quote assume that everyone killed in Gaza in Operation Cast Lead was a civilian when that was simply far from the case.

[Waldo87]

The figures you quote assume that everyone killed in Gaza in Operation Cast Lead was a civilian when that was simply far from the case.

This probably is off-topic but heres a link for you, Gaza War, or do you have more accurate figures?

[el midgetron]

Israel is worse than Al Qeada, because its real.......

[Moon Monkey]

This probably is off-topic but heres a link for you, Gaza War, or do you have more accurate figures?

Every NGO had slightly different figures, as did Hamas and the israeli government. However even using your source we have already dropped your 'well above 1000' to 700-odd of whom almost 300 were Hamas police (Hamas supporters with guns). Then we will have to delve further into other political figures and general 'blokes who took up a gun' before we arrive at a final figure for civilians. Of course this will still be a unacceptably high figure however not the headline number banded around. Hamas and Israel have to both take responsibility for all civilian casulties.

[Waldo87]

Every NGO had slightly different figures, as did Hamas and the israeli government. However even using your source we have already dropped your 'well above 1000' to 700-odd of whom almost 300 were Hamas police (Hamas supporters with guns). Then we will have to delve further into other political figures and general 'blokes who took up a gun' before we arrive at a final figure for civilians. Of course this will still be a unacceptably high figure however not the headline number banded around. Hamas and Israel have to both take responsibility for all civilian casulties.

I was talking about the '1,387 Gazans were killed, including 773 civilians and 330 combatants.', and the remaining 284 non-combatants as well. But your right both sides have to take the responsibility, 'Israel by using disproportionate force in crowded Gaza, and Hamas by hiding behind civilians and indiscriminately firing rockets at Israeli towns'

[Space Commander Travis]

is this according to the old principle of "whoever we [or our allies] kill, call them terrorists"?

[J.B.]

Two complaints: 1. Fernando, no. If aliens invaded you'd get a bunch of people appeasing the aliens, not unity. You'd get the human race torn apart, some for siding with the aliens, some for fighting, others for sitting tight and watching. If by a miracle we won, you'd get WW next, whatever number it was.

2. Al Qaeda is real, it's a terrorist group that we've known about since fricken' Clinton. The idiot tried using a bombing raid on them as an escape from the Lewinsky scandal. Would have worked and even nabbed one of Bin Laden's co-conspirators had Clinton waited and gotten satelite tracking to be sure Zawahiri's satelite phone wasn't in use - it was, and we'd have wiped the man off the face of the planet had Clinton let his intelligence guys do the proper leg-work.

There are no neutral parties in existence anymore. Everyone who has the ability to investigate this has already taken sides. U.N. Security Counsel has anti-Israelis up the wazoo, and the other side is headed by the Israeli-U.S. alliance. So. . . there is no credible investigation that can take place in this where we can trust one source. Gotta look at both sides and measure it somewhere in between.

[Ryinrea]

is this according to the old principle of "whoever we [or our allies] kill, call them terrorists"?

Yes this is that old principle, because those terrorist had A Noble PEACE Prize winner, woman and children, plus the elderly among them. Yeah I call them "terrorist" all right sarcasm.

Plus the fact one of these people would have been a 85 year old HOLOCAUST survivor, but was not on the boat because of mixes up ect.

So far the Noble Prize winner is unaccounted for the last thing I heard about this group.

Gaza flotilla attack: Israeli ambassador compares raid to Second World War

Edited June 2, 2010 by Ryinrea

[Space Commander Travis]

Al Qaeda is real, it's a terrorist group that we've known about since fricken' Clinton. The idiot tried using a bombing raid on them as an escape from the Lewinsky scandal. Would have worked and even nabbed one of Bin Laden's co-conspirators had Clinton waited and gotten satelite tracking to be sure Zawahiri's satelite phone wasn't in use - it was, and we'd have wiped the man off the face of the planet had Clinton let his intelligence guys do the proper leg-work.

Would've nailed one of Bin laden's co-conspirators? Seems like the forces of right kill Al Qaeda's second in command every other week. Didn't they kill him just the other day? This, plus the fact that they seem to be such a vast and mysterious organisation that they get everywhere and seem to be impossible to destroy by any means available to the forces of right, but at the same time their memebrs seem to be so easily identifiable once they are killed by said forces of right, and above all they're such a handy scapegoat for anything, are possibly a few of the reasons why some haters of freedom sometimes nurture some doubts as to their verisimilitude.

Edited June 2, 2010 by 747400

[odas]

Well, not surprisingly enough, Erdogan's flotilla was another way to wage Jihad on Israel, a religious obligation for him.

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BS