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Erikl

Report: Gaza aid ship had Al Qaeda crew

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susieice

Yes this is that old principle, because those terrorist had A Noble PEACE Prize winner, woman and children, plus the elderly among them. Yeah I call them "terrorist" all right sarcasm. :rolleyes:

Plus the fact one of these people would have been a 85 year old HOLOCAUST survivor, but was not on the boat because of mixes up ect.

So far the Noble Prize winner is unaccounted for the last thing I heard about this group.

Gaza flotilla attack: Israeli ambassador compares raid to Second World War

I saw somewhere in the links tonight that she's on the Rachel Corrie.

Edited by susieice

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Space Commander Travis

Idiot, get your head out of the media. Media ****s up everything, and Bush was so ridiculous on that front you shouldn't listen to much of what he said. Go for the intelligence reports, and read books written by people who were in the know. Former intelligence directors and others of that caliber.

Oho. (I presume that was directed at me.) Ah yes, resort to insult, always gives your argument extra strength.

Any road up, "get your head out of the media"? :unsure: Irony there? Since who tells us all the time that Al Qaeda are the greatest menace facing civilisation, etc? Isn't it usually... the media? or the politicians, via the media? :unsure:

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Rosewin
flotilla was another way to wage Jihad on Israel

Your sources are clearly biased, one are American Christian fundamentalist, the other is from Israel itself.

Let us take a look at some you accuse of jihad. Americans, mind you.

Dr. Paul Larudee, a passenger on the Freedom Flotilla that was attacked by Israel before it could deliver its cargo of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, was badly beaten and tasered during the Memorial Day commando raid, but according to latest reports he was released from detention late Wednesday night and is now in flight to Greece.

Larudee, a resident of Richmond, CA, participated in the international flotilla as part of a delegation from the Free Palestine Movement (FPM), a California-based non-profit. Two other members of the FPM group - Ambassador Ed Peck of Chevy Chase, MD, a retired US diplomat, and Joe Meadors of Corpus Christi, TX, a USS Liberty veteran (hence now a survivor of two unprovoked Israeli attacks on the high seas) - have returned home safely and are now speaking out about their ordeal. As of Wednesday afternoon California time, two other members of the group - Gene St. Onge and Janet Kobren, both of Oakland, CA - have been held up for the last 12 hours at Israel's international airport near Tel Aviv. but are expected to board a flight to Istanbul soon, before proceeding home to the US.

...

At least seven other US citizens took part in the Freedom Flotilla under the auspices of other organizations. One, Huwaida Arraf, chair of the Free Gaza Movement, was released Tuesday. The FPM has no confirmed information about the status of the other six: Iara Lee, a filmmaker from San Francisco; Kathy Sheetz, a retired nurse from Richmond, CA, and Woods Hole, MA; Ann Wright, a retired U.S. Army Colonel and a U.S. diplomat until she resigned in opposition to theIraq war; David Schermerhorn, a film producer from Deer Harbor, WA; Fatima Mohammadi, a longtime activist from Chicago; and Khalid Turaani, who was founder and executive director of the former American Muslims forJerusalem and now lives in Dubai.

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2010-06-01/article/35522?headline=More-Gaza-Flotilla-Detainees-Released-Larudee-Badly-Beaten-But-Now-Headed-to-Greece

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

The alliance between leftist lunatics and Muslim lunatics isn't anything new.

And I believe the claim was that several people on the flotilla had terrorist-links, not every single one of them...

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Rosewin

Calling a former US ambassador and a former US colonel lunatics is not very productive to your argument.

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

Yes, and? Ambassadors and former military personnel can't be biased and politically-motivated? And those are two people, out of a dozen. It was a general statement, though. You'll find many Western radical leftists in pretty much every major anti-Israeli PR stunt, alongside their Muslim buddies.

And I'm sure you'd love the ambassador and the colonel if they were pro-Israeli...

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Rosewin

Yes, and? Ambassadors and former military personnel can't be biased and politically-motivated?

Well biased and politically-motivated is a more sensible statement that can be agreed upon. At first you called them lunatics which, just as the OP labeled all on the flotilla as jihadists, is such an outrageous claim that cannot be taken seriously. Think about it, someone is calling a former US ambassador and a former colonel either jihadists or lunatics....would you take such a person seriously? Not most would.

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

I don't know them well enough to say whether they're lunatics or not.

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Erikl

Calling a former US ambassador and a former US colonel lunatics is not very productive to your argument.

The sad truth is that many such radical leftwingers use their impressive history from back when they were still normal to legitimize their own current craze. It's nothing new. Uri Avnery, a radical left winger here in Israel, was a decorated hero and used to belong to the radical right wing group called Lehi back during the British mandate. Yet somewhere along the way he too fell victim to the radical left wing propaganda and has since became the voice of anti-zionism.

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Rosewin

The whole purpose of this thread was to attempt to portray the whole of the peace activism for Gaza in a negative light. Yet, it is not known that anyone aboard the flotilla has international arrest warrants as do several Israeli officials and government agents involved in Operation Cast Lead. When they are caught they will be turned over to the International Criminal Court in The Hague. What makes you think the world is going to allow Israel to get away with this flotilla fiasco?

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/international_arrest_warrants_.html

Edited by Rosewin

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Erikl

The whole purpose of this thread was to attempt to portray the whole of the peace activism for Gaza in a negative light. Yet, it is not known that anyone aboard the flotilla has international arrest warrants as do several Israeli officials and government agents involved in Operation Lead Cast. When they are caught they will be turned over to the International Criminal Court in The Hague. What makes you think the world is going to allow Israel to get away with this flotilla fiasco?

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/international_arrest_warrants_.html

Any "peace activism" in the aid of a terror regime such as Hamas should be viewed in a negative light, as Israel transfer humanitarian aid on a daily basis, 4 times as big as the entire "aid" (expired drugs and cold weapons) attempted to illegaly do. The entire point of this flotila was to embarass and humaliate Israel. Why is it that not a single pro-Israeli participated in the aid? Because it was specificaly anti-Israeli. The barabrian horde that was on the Marmara wanted to kill Israeli soldiers - or at least to beat them hard. That was the whole point of this trip from Turkey, which was financed and supported by the Turkish Islamic government. Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, is twitching in his grave right now to see his country he tried so hard to distance from radical Islamism, falling right into the hand of such people.

The international arrest warrants against Israeli officials is a fiasco - where are the international warrants against American and British officials, whose armies killed many times the amount of non-combatant killed in operation Lead Cast. And neither America nor did Britain suffered 8 years long missile attack on their cities from Iraq.

That's what happans when the non-democracies have automatic majority in any UN vote. Heck - many democracies vote with them because of the oil that 57 UN member states with muslim majority (and hence anti-Israeli) have.

Let's see - the new UN Human Rights Comittee was created in 2006. Since then, they passed 40 resolutions. 33 against Israel. None against North Korea, Iran, China or Libya. Yep, all of those countries listed have a far better human rights record than democratic Israel, where a member of the parliament who calls to the destruction of Israel and board those "aid" ships can get away with nothing and still keep their job. Where a woman served as a prime minister, where 3 of it's prime ministers got the Nobel Award for Peace, and as the only country in the west to take in tens of thousands of black africans not for slavery. No doubt, Israel is a monster.

Edited by Erikl

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Space Commander Travis

Yes, and? Ambassadors and former military personnel can't be biased and politically-motivated? And those are two people, out of a dozen. It was a general statement, though. You'll find many Western radical leftists in pretty much every major anti-Israeli PR stunt, alongside their Muslim buddies.

So that automatically makes them lunatics, does it?

... oh, of course it does. Anyone not automatically pro-Israel (or rather, who expresses anything other than foaming hatred of any of Israel's enemies) is of course automatically a leftist lunatic, aren't they.

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Corp

I never got the complete and utter hatred for Israel. I mean yes they've done plenty of bad stuff that should be condemned but at times it seems people fall over themselves to condemn Israel for anything it does. As Erikl has mentioned the UN spends tons of time condemning Israel. Then you have countries like North Korea, Burma, Sudan, China, etc etc etc who are either doing the same thing as Israel or taking actions that are far worst. Yet no one seems to care what they do. At least not to the same level as Israel's actions.

On topic can't say I'm completely surprised that there's not some people on the ships with terrorist ties. I mean I doubt the people putting the convoy together did complete background checks on everyone.

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Rosewin

Any "peace activism" in the aid of a terror regime such as Hamas should be viewed in a negative light, as Israel transfer humanitarian aid on a daily basis, 4 times as big as the entire "aid" (expired drugs and cold weapons) attempted to illegaly do.

The peace activism for Gaza is for the Palestinian people (population) and not Hamas (politics). This is who everyone wishes to aid. The UN has made it clear not enough aid is going in because of Israel's refusal. Especially reconstruction aid which Israel does not allow at all. The reconstruction material that does enter does so illegally through the crossing with Egypt but it cannot be used by any international aid agencies to reconstruct since they can only used legal materials and not any smuggled materials. Israel is the only one who can allow them in legally so the ball is on their court.

The entire point of this flotila was to embarass and humaliate Israel. Why is it that not a single pro-Israeli participated in the aid? Because it was specificaly anti-Israeli.

The Israeli government must quit shading this as only them vs us with two sides where you are either on one side or the other because there are those whose only aim is to help those in need, there are more than just two sides, the black and white thinking must be discarded to move forward in the peace process.

The barabrian horde that was on the Marmara wanted to kill Israeli soldiers - or at least to beat them hard.

Barbarian hordes? Such language is usually reserved by those who believe in racial superiority or at least could easily be construed as such.

That was the whole point of this trip from Turkey, which was financed and supported by the Turkish Islamic government. Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, is twitching in his grave right now to see his country he tried so hard to distance from radical Islamism, falling right into the hand of such people.

The Free Gaza Movement has been sending ships, this was not the first time, the whole point is to help people, other human beings like me or you, every time they have sent ships this has never happened. Now maybe there are a few who have infiltrated this particular peace movement but one cannot simply characterize the whole movement as one of confrontation.

The international arrest warrants against Israeli officials is a fiasco - where are the international warrants against American and British officials, whose armies killed many times the amount of non-combatant killed in operation Lead Cast. And neither America nor did Britain suffered 8 years long missile attack on their cities from Iraq.

The warrants exists, Interpol is involved, Britain among other nations are willing to honor these warrants, so it sounds like a pretty respectable affair under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC). Attempting to claim other countries have done worse is not going to make this go away.

That's what happans when the non-democracies have automatic majority in any UN vote. Heck - many democracies vote with them because of the oil that 57 UN member states with muslim majority (and hence anti-Israeli) have.

Let's see - the new UN Human Rights Comittee was created in 2006. Since then, they passed 40 resolutions. 33 against Israel. None against North Korea, Iran, China or Libya. Yep, all of those countries listed have a far better human rights record than democratic Israel, where a member of the parliament who calls to the destruction of Israel and board those "aid" ships can get away with nothing and still keep their job. Where a woman served as a prime minister, where 3 of it's prime ministers got the Nobel Award for Peace, and as the only country in the west to take in tens of thousands of black africans not for slavery. No doubt, Israel is a monster.

Israel is not a monster but needs to readdress its foreign and domestic policies. It has taken some time for the global political climate to change so that things like war crime warrants for Israelis to even be possible. It's citizens need to vote for those who are willing to be part of the world and settle its ethnic strife without having to resort to activity that leads to war crime warrants being issued in the first place.

You speak of places like North Korea, Iran, China, and Libya but fail to take notice that more and more the world is lumping Israel into that same category until it changes. It can change and really has no choice. Pressure will be placed on Israel until the blockade is severely eased.

Edited by Rosewin

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Lord Umbarger

Al Qaida on the blockade runners?

One argument is that there were, the other, obviously, is that there weren't. How would anyone know if someone else is a member of Al Qaida? Is it possible for someone with no real connections to still be a supporter of that organisation and to act independantly on it's behalf?

Now, I wasn't there any more than any one posting on this board was and I'm sure that none of us have all the intel before us at the moment that the Israelis had when the decision was made. So, considering that we don't have the real deal info to go over, we're forced to ask our selves the logical question: "Why would Israel intentionally commit an act that could percipitate a full on war that, even if they won, would cost them thousands of lives, billions in cash and possibly drag the planet down the sink hole into another world war, unless they had REALLY good reason to?". Whether someone believes that israel is evil or the devils nation or whatever, you have to admit that for a nation to exist as long as they have, they simply can't be that damned stupid.

Does anyone here really think that a nation as badly out numbered and out positioned as Israel is would just go about the sea picking fights all willy nilly with no cause? And, if someone believes that to be the case, why would they do that?

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Erikl

Rosewin, the blockade was decalared legal by the UN. Enough aid is getting through - it's the fact that Hamas tries to hide materials that could help them to build rockets as "reconstruction material", that such things do not get through.

You also mentioned that these things are smuggled through the border with Egypt - only hinting to the fact that Egypt is putting it's own blockade on the Hamas State. Yet the flotila didn't try to break the Egyptian blockade. Why is that? after all - the Egyptians are fellow Arabs and muslims who might want to actually help the population, no? The truth is that the people onboard of these ships had one thing in mind - humaliating Israel, and confronting Israeli soldiers, who they hate.

I call them Barbarian hordes not for racial reasons (and that kind of logic is what makes the radical left a demagogue), but because the lust for the blood of the Israeli soldiers in their eyes is just that - barbarian. And a horde for how they acted - like a mob about to lynch someone.

If someone wants to free Gaza, they should call for the resignition of the Hamas government in Gaza, the true people who keep the Gazan population as hostages. Why is it that the radical left always support human rights violators - is beyond me.

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Erikl

As for Israel being or even becoming like China or North Korea or the other bunch of terror dictatoships, well that's just plain dumb. I also heard it's becoming increasingly popular among the radical left to claim Israel is an Apartheid state. Well, consider the following:

Over half of the Jewish population in Israel originates from the Middle East and have been expelled from their homes by the Arabs some 60 years ago. That is - Jews who are the natives of the region, and have been living there centuries before the Arabs invaded the middle east in the 7th century. Back in the time when it was rulled by Babylonians and Assyrians.

The rest of Israeli Jews the descendants of Jews who have been persecuted and slaughtered for centuries all across Europe, and victims of one of the worst case of genocides in modern history.

That's simply identical to the situation of a bunch of British and Dutch white supremacist slave owners who created South Africa and institued the Aparatheid regime.

In Israel, there is large Palestinian minority (20% of the population) who enjoys full political and human rights - free to go anywhere, buy whatever they want, enter any place they'd like, and generally do whatever they want. They even have a free pass from the compulsory draft (other non-Jews in Israel such as Druze and Russians don't such a free pass) and can begin their academic studies as early as 18, instead of the average age of 23 that a veteran soldier who had to serve his country for at least 3 year does.

In the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, 10% of the members of parliament are Palestinian Arabs who represent parties with Palestinian Nationalist agendas, and they see no problem with calling for the destruction of the state which they should represent as an elected members of it's parliament.

The black africans under the apartheid regime didn't have as much as 0.01% of these rights.

Israel is the only country in the history of the world, including all the western democracies, who have taken in 120,000 Black Africans (consider a population of 5 million back then - that's alot of people) not as slaves but as free equal citizens to live in a democratic country.

All of this is so far from being an apartheid or racist, that it makes one to laugh at the possibility of equating Israel to such regimes.

The turth is that a bunch of clueless left-leaning Europeans, who are obssesed with guilt over their own countries colonial history, have fallen under the well (oil well) financed Palestinian and Arab propaganda against Israel, and are now supporting it.

The fact is that Arab and Palestinian hatred stems directly from WW2 Nazism (the founder of the Palestinian Movement, Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini, was a Nazi and one of Hitlers best friends. Also, the founders of the PLO were trained by fleeing Nazi war criminals who have found harbour in Egypt back in the 1950s) and traditional muslim anti-semitism.

As long as Arabs keep hating Jews and do not accept our right to live here in peace, there will be no peace. Sorry, we won't agree to being slaughtered.

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Rosewin

Rosewin, the blockade was decalared legal by the UN. Enough aid is getting through - it's the fact that Hamas tries to hide materials that could help them to build rockets as "reconstruction material", that such things do not get through.

That is not accurate. The UN has condemned the blockade, demanded it be lifted, and insist upon an independent investigation.

This has nothing to do with 'Hamas trying to hide materials' since Israel is just flat out refusing to allow certain materials to be allowed in at all, even if they inspect them, such as cement.

You also mentioned that these things are smuggled through the border with Egypt - only hinting to the fact that Egypt is putting it's own blockade on the Hamas State. Yet the flotila didn't try to break the Egyptian blockade. Why is that? after all - the Egyptians are fellow Arabs and muslims who might want to actually help the population, no? The truth is that the people onboard of these ships had one thing in mind - humaliating Israel, and confronting Israeli soldiers, who they hate.

The only crossing into Palestine from Egypt is a land route. Ships cannot enter through there, obviously.

I call them Barbarian hordes not for racial reasons (and that kind of logic is what makes the radical left a demagogue), but because the lust for the blood of the Israeli soldiers in their eyes is just that - barbarian. And a horde for how they acted - like a mob about to lynch someone.

It is funny how Israel always portrays itself as the victim but the situation is usually always the same. Ten dead, none which are known to be Israeli, all killed by Israelis, and they were the only ones with guns.

If someone wants to free Gaza, they should call for the resignition of the Hamas government in Gaza, the true people who keep the Gazan population as hostages.

Israel is responsible for the Palestinian population since they insist to claim the land they live on. This is according to international law.

Why is it that the radical left always support human rights violators - is beyond me.

Because the radical right always profits from conflict?

Edited by Rosewin

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questionmark

I love plump attempts at disinformation... the plain truth would be less damaging for Israel.

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Erikl

The UN didn't condemn the blockade, and if it did it would act against it's own rules - which allow a country to launch a blockade against an enemy state.

The ships could have asked from the Egyptians to dock at the Rafah sea port, and transfer their "aid" trough the Rafah border crossing, which split the city between Gaza and Egypt. Yet they chose not to. Why? becase they tried to humaliate and confront Israel.

Israel is the victim here - the victim of a well directed and financed bashing campaign.

Israel has evacuated Gaza since August 2005 and so isn't responsible for the fate of it's population since then. That was even recognized and blessed by the overwhemly anti-Israeli UN. Alas, we still support them and they enjoy energy produced in Israel, Israelis phone infrastructre, Israeli-distilled water, etc. I wonder why their brethren Egyptians don't want to take the job of giving a humanitarian aid to the Arabs in Gaza.

The radical left and the radical right usually found themselves in the same point - that is, radicals are usually the same.

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Rosewin

I love plump attempts at disinformation... the plain truth would be less damaging for Israel.

The truth will come out soon enough. The UN has officially passed a resolution for an investigation. The EU fully supports it or at least demanded it.

Meanwhile, United Nations is already moving ahead with its own examination, and the UN Human Rights Council voted on Wednesday to dispatch investigators to the region. Thirty-two countries voted in favor of a committee of inquiry, with nine abstaining and three - the U.S., the Netherlands and Italy - against.

The decision is similar to the one that established the Goldstone Committee, which examined Israel's invasion of Gaza Strip a year and a half ago. That inquiry, led by a retired South African judge, accusing Israel and Hamas war crimes.

Arab states asked the council to condemn Israel for violating international law because it had taken over the flotilla's ships in international waters. The council's resolution also calls on Israel to lift the blockade on the Gaza Strip and to provide its residents with food, fuel and medicines.

The resolution's final article states that the council will send an independent, international group to investigate the facts of the incident and any violations of international law as a result of "the Israeli attack against a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid".

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/lieberman-israel-has-no-reason-to-fear-probe-of-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.293960

Edited by Rosewin

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Lord Umbarger
That is not accurate. The UN has condemned the blockade, demanded it be lifted, and insist upon an independent investigation.
I honestly don't recall seeing this. Of course, it's also a factor of which nations represenitives were insession when that vote was taken.

Before we go overboard touting the importance of a "UN Condemnations", let's try to remember how easily the Left dismisses SEVENTEEN FULL RESOLUTIONS AGAINST IRAQ only a decade ago. You may also be shoked to discoer that Israel was created, in a sense, by a UN Resolution. Are you picking and choosing which Resolutions you support? It seems may on the Let, not all but, many, only cite the UN when it helps their side of the argument. Me being me, I think the UN is full of beans and has been since it's inception. I mean, think about it... better than half of the voting members are nations that no sensible person would choose to live in.

This has nothing to do with 'Hamas trying to hide materials' since Israel is just flat out refusing to allow certain materials to be allowed in at all, even if they inspect them, such as cement.
So, if you come across a ship at sea carrying a cargo of half concrete and half missile parts, what do you do? Tell the captain that he can only take half his ship into port? Whose going to draw the short straw and sail half a ship home? By law, and common sense here for a change, ANY percentage of contraband technically puts the entire vessel in violation.
The only crossing into Palestine from Egypt is a land route. Ships cannot enter through there, obviously
Then, why don't the Turks ship these fruits and vegetables into Egypt, put it on trucks, and take it directly to the Gazans that way? Seems like it would be less of a conflict to me.... if it's legal cargo and all. At least that way, ANOTHER country could validate the cargo.

Besides, if we're going to get so up in a tizzy over what the UN does and doesn't do, why aren't we raising hell over Chinese human rights? The rights of women in muslim dominated countries? North Korea claimign to have nukes? I seriously believe that the UN has over the last cuople of decades, become nothing more than a rubber stamp for tyrants the world over.

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danielost

So let me get this straight, the IDF had intel beforehand of Forty or so armed al-Qaeda terrorists, equipped with bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles and they landed their commandos on the ship to take them out with 'paint-ball guns'. Unless they found out that al-Qaeda operatives are more afraid of paint pellets than actual bullets that just seems ludacris, even if the ship had civilians on boards when has the IDF previously put the lives of their soldiers at risk for the sake of minimising civilian casualties. Can you quote an instance?. Do you even know the death toll of Palestenian civlians during the recent war with Hamas? Above 1000 and compare that to the deaths of Israelis.

they would be if the idf used pig fat in the paintballs.

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Waldo87

they would be if the idf used pig fat in the paintballs.

You do know that pork is prohibited according to Jewish dietary laws (Kashrut) as well. Maybe pig fat was the reason both sides freaked out.

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danielost

You do know that pork is prohibited according to Jewish dietary laws (Kashrut) as well. Maybe pig fat was the reason both sides freaked out.

the jews cant eat it. the muslims cant touch it, even by accident.

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