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Erikl

Flotilla passengers: Go back to Auschwitz

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The Infidel Guy

Yeah... I wonder when will someone speak out against the occupation of Cyprus, the denial of the Armenian Genocide, and the brutal opression of the Kurds.

Oops... the king is naked...

The occupation of Cyprus has been sorted out for years now and the treaty between Greece and Turkey is of peace not of war like the Israel/Pelestinian conflict.....thought that was obvious.....i guess not for the blinded..... :blink:

The Armenian genocide happened some what years ago and thus the end of the war. I don't see a genocide with Armenians in this present day...but unlike the Israel/Palestenian conflict there is a genocide happening and its quite evident in this present day.....

The oppression of the Kurds what oppression? The kurds killed many soldiers in the effort of taking Turkish land. But as of recently the Kurdish leaders were invited by the Turkish government for a sit down to work out some sort of peace.....Unike the Israel confict peace is often followed by tanks bulldozing Palestinians houses.

But back on the topic which you failed to reply to....the video has been debunked multiple times.....but keep beating your chest for the murderous Israeli Government.....

Its ok your having a tough time coming to terms with the Israeli's being caught with there pants down. The Internation Community is awake and alive. Its only a matter of time till the majority of the world stands upto this murderous regime :)

Peace

T.I.G

Edited by The Infidel Guy

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Erikl

Yes, because I said so. Problems with that? Don't care. As long as people accuse all muslims as terrorists this will be my answer to everything.

You stop, I stop.

Very mature... lol...

btw, I've never, ever called the all muslims terrorists. But Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group. They are self-admitted branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

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Rosewin

Does anyone remember the story regarding Israel attempting to develop a biological weapon that would kill only those with Arab genes but not Jewish ones? They can use the imagery of Auschwitz for their propaganda but in secret they plan to ethnically cleanse others. They need to be stopped before they can do this. They need to be disarmed so the whole region can be stabilized. This and the story of settlers is what initially made me concerned and very weary of Israeli tactics. I am sure many others are like me and after this flotilla raid that turned into a massacre it just feels like straw that broke the camels back. For me it was a reminder of the horrors of the last offensive (Cast Lead) and one can hope that all their WMDs, including white phosphorus, are taken away from the control of the Israeli government, they have proven themselves irresponsible, they harbor war criminals, and plan even now to continue more crimes against humanity.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p24_Weber.html

I'll take that bet, how much ? Can we do it through PayPal ?

A friendly wager with nothing at stake but 'I told you so' in a few years.

Oh yeah... quote IHR, a very reliable source, in a thread that deals with the anti-semitism of the Marmara crew...

What is IHR? Well folks, there you go:

Source - wikipedia.

Or are you now gonna claim that wikipedia is controlled by Jews? world Jewry perhaps?

I don't know if you use IHR as your constant source for news about the world and Israel... if you do - then perhaps your views aren't just anti-Israeli, but also anti-Semitic (which also proves that many of the anti-Israeli viewes originate in closet anti-semitism).

I do not use IHR as a constant source, in fact I do not recall ever using it before this time. I did repost my original post above so you could see I was talking about an article I read in a "printed" newspaper several years ago. In it it mentioned Israel was attempting to create a biological weapon that would only target those with Arab genes and not Jewish ones.

Now it has been several years but that story never left my memory, it coupled with the settler situation is what caused me to stop supporting the Israeli government. It is not my fault only a few online sources still have that story on file, one of them being from a deplorable organization which you have informed me of. I do not support those who deny the holocaust. It happened, many died, many Slavics and others too which sadly few remember or honor when discussing the holocaust.

Many of the anti-Israeli sentiment here is directed at the government of Israel and not the Jewish people. Your insinuation at the end that there is 'proof that many anti-Israeli views originate in closet anti-semitism' reveals nothing about the views of others but does exemplify the tribal mindset some Israelis have that there are only two sides in a conflict forgetting the large third category of those who favor peace instead and this same tribal mindset also lends itself to conspiracy thinking that those opposed to the policies of the current Israeli government are anti-Semitic.

Now answer me just one question: would you be in favor of a biological weapon that would only target those with Arab but not Jewish genes?

Oops...Rosewin do 'all your jewish friends' know where you go for your news ? bAfter all your complaints about peoples sourcs as well. :unsure2:

Read above.

As far as my Jewish friends, I have none currently, I have had one before. I did grow up in a household which for religious reasons felt a strong connection to Jews, especially Hassidic, and which strongly supported Israel. Yes, that included disliking Muslims and thinking most of them were terrorist until I became more informed and learned the world is more complex than that. One of the earliest books I remember reading as a child was the diary of Anne Frank which is still one of my favorite books and the only one I revisit every few years.

I have a great interest in Jewish culture, have visited the local Jewish museum, and have looked more than most into their history and culture including that of crypto-Jews and others throughout the world which are rarely considered when one thinks of Jews.

Recently I discussed with my wife the nature of the medieval witch trials and how the methods used in them were at first developed in the Inquisition against Jews and others such as the Albigensians. We reviewed several historical expulsions of Jews in Europe and talked about how they were done only to steal their wealth, in some cases to cancel debts owed to them, and in most cases pure racism. It was truly horrible the way Jews have been treated in Europe and having it become codified in their laws. One of the earliest examples is the Visigothic Code dating back to the 600s had many anti Jewish laws.

No, some of us like Jews, we just don't like the way the Israeli government is an agressor, harbors war criminals, steals land, murders civilians, and lies about it all. I am sure the Jews in Israel who also do no support their government are accused of being traitors to their own people. I am certain they are not traitors and love their people but see another way, what does that tell you that some love Jews but dislike the Israeli government?

These issues regarding the flotilla and why the rest of the world condemns it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or religion.

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

Oh dear. Rosewin has crossed into flat-out conspiracy theory territory. "Special" chemical weapons that don't kill Jews? Did Alex Jones tell you that?

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susieice

Just a friendly word of warning. Don't get the guy above me going on Wikipedia.

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Rosewin

Oh dear. Rosewin has crossed into flat-out conspiracy theory territory. "Special" chemical weapons that don't kill Jews? Did Alex Jones tell you that?

As I stated, I read the original article in a mainstream printed newspaper. Now it turns out that story was later reported as a hoax, I never knew this, but I do clearly remember reading the original article in either my local newspaper or maybe even USA Today. I wonder now if it was really a hoax.

In November 1998, The Sunday Times reported that Israel was attempting to build an "ethno- bomb" containing a biological agent that could specifically target genetic traits present amongst Arab populations. Wired News also reported the story, as did Foreign Report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_bioweapon#Israeli_.22ethno-bomb.22_controversy

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

So you admit it later turned out to be a hoax, yet you still believe it could true, regardless of the facts. I wonder why.

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Pseudo Intellectual

By the way, this bears a striking resemblance to a certain article I once read on Infowars. A tidbit:

In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba, flew to America and returned with seven x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today.

6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given, while many of the rest developed cancers that killed thousands over time and are still killing them now. While living, the victims suffered from disorders such as epilepsy, amnesia, Alzheimer's disease, chronic headaches and psychosis.

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Rosewin

Well I read the article for the first time in the late 90s so it has always stuck with me but never did I know it was a hoax if it is. This information is new to me.

As far as the article you linked, disgusting if true, I do not approve of some of the things our government has done.

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

It's Infowars. Of course it's not true.

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Moon Monkey

Well I read the article for the first time in the late 90s so it has always stuck with me but never did I know it was a hoax if it is. This information is new to me.

As far as the article you linked, disgusting if true, I do not approve of some of the things our government has done.

You didn't want to know if it was a hoax. It fitted your opinion and sounded about right so you didn't bother to check it out over the next 10 years.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Erikl

The occupation of Cyprus has been sorted out for years now and the treaty between Greece and Turkey is of peace not of war like the Israel/Pelestinian conflict.....thought that was obvious.....i guess not for the blinded..... :blink:

The Armenian genocide happened some what years ago and thus the end of the war. I don't see a genocide with Armenians in this present day...but unlike the Israel/Palestenian conflict there is a genocide happening and its quite evident in this present day.....

The oppression of the Kurds what oppression? The kurds killed many soldiers in the effort of taking Turkish land. But as of recently the Kurdish leaders were invited by the Turkish government for a sit down to work out some sort of peace.....Unike the Israel confict peace is often followed by tanks bulldozing Palestinians houses.

But back on the topic which you failed to reply to....the video has been debunked multiple times.....but keep beating your chest for the murderous Israeli Government.....

Its ok your having a tough time coming to terms with the Israeli's being caught with there pants down. The Internation Community is awake and alive. Its only a matter of time till the majority of the world stands upto this murderous regime :)

Peace

T.I.G

Sorted out? how, by Turkey continuing ignorance of UN resolutions? Turkey is still occupying the northern part of the island, declared an illegal state called "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" or something like that, and continue to settle Turkish citizens from it's mainland illegaly. These are exact same allegations Israel gets, yet we didn't annexed the territories and we acknowledge the fact that we'll be leaving them sometimes in the future. The turks do not. And you don't see the UN obssesing with them. How come?

As for the Armenian genocide - so your saying basically, someone could get away with it because it's been too long? sorry, there is no age for such crimes. Especially with the fact that they are actively deny it - you can get a degree in Turkey for armenian genocide denial! It's as if Germany would not acknowledge the Holocaust.

The turks are actively opressing their kurdish citizens, comprising some 20% of turkey's population. they do not acknowledge their culture or ethnic existance (they simply claim they are iranian turks), and committ what some describe as "cultural genocide". In their fight against kurdish terrorism, they killed 37,000 Kurds in just 16 years. It's more than almost 4 times the number of Palestinians who died in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 62 years. Yet no one speaks out. No one cares. And the Turks have the nerve and hypocricy to claim Israel is a war criminal?

Turkey invades Iraqi Kurdistan on a regular basis, with some 50,000 turkish soldiers crossing the border back in the early 2000s, to kill off kurds. Turkish member of parliament of kurdish origin, who dared to speak kurdish infront of the parliament, was thrown to jail.

You basically ignore grave human rights violations and horrible atrocities committed by Turkey, just so they current Israeli bashing will be legitimate. But seriously, out of all the possible western countries that could speak out against Israel, Turkey is the worst candidate to criticise us about human rights violations or about occupations. They should check their own log before telling us about our splinter.

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Rosewin

You didn't want to know if it was a hoax. It fitted your opinion and sounded about right so you didn't bother to check it out over the next 10 years.

Do you research each and every newspaper article you read? Back then the internet was also lots smaller, no google, but I did use altavista and hotbot.

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Moon Monkey

Do you research each and every newspaper article you read? Back then the internet was also lots smaller, no google, but I did use altavista and hotbot.

If it is something as far out there as that, yes. If I am going to recall it in a 2010 thread, yes.

Your true colours have really started shining through Rosewinn. I had a look through your posts over the last few weeks *snip* if you don't care then just stop pretending that you are some sort of even-handed spectator. You are not.

Edited by Paranormalcy

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Rosewin

Sorted out? how, by Turkey continuing ignorance of UN resolutions? Turkey is still occupying the northern part of the island, declared an illegal state called "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" or something like that, and continue to settle Turkish citizens from it's mainland illegaly. These are exact same allegations Israel gets, yet we didn't annexed the territories and we acknowledge the fact that we'll be leaving them sometimes in the future. The turks do not. And you don't see the UN obssesing with them. How come?

As for the Armenian genocide - so your saying basically, someone could get away with it because it's been too long? sorry, there is no age for such crimes. Especially with the fact that they are actively deny it - you can get a degree in Turkey for armenian genocide denial! It's as if Germany would not acknowledge the Holocaust.

The turks are actively opressing their kurdish citizens, comprising some 20% of turkey's population. they do not acknowledge their culture or ethnic existance (they simply claim they are iranian turks), and committ what some describe as "cultural genocide". In their fight against kurdish terrorism, they killed 37,000 Kurds in just 16 years. It's more than almost 4 times the number of Palestinians who died in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 62 years. Yet no one speaks out. No one cares. And the Turks have the nerve and hypocricy to claim Israel is a war criminal?

Turkey invades Iraqi Kurdistan on a regular basis, with some 50,000 turkish soldiers crossing the border back in the early 2000s, to kill off kurds. Turkish member of parliament of kurdish origin, who dared to speak kurdish infront of the parliament, was thrown to jail.

You basically ignore grave human rights violations and horrible atrocities committed by Turkey, just so they current Israeli bashing will be legitimate. But seriously, out of all the possible western countries that could speak out against Israel, Turkey is the worst candidate to criticise us about human rights violations or about occupations. They should check their own log before telling us about our splinter.

This is about Gaza only. The investigation into that incident will focus on that.

Now if there are two people, one attacks the other, when in court it will be that specific incident that is going to be the focus of the trial. Now if a bad man was being tried the court is not going to accept his insistance that the person he assaulted has done so to others. Of course bad men like this frequently will say why are they being punished if all those other people doing the same are not....

...quit pretending those concerned about the flotilla fiasco and are critical of Israel are all ignoring every other atrocity in the world. That is not the case. In this case unarmed Turkish civilians were murdered by armed Israeli soldiers.

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Erikl
Now if there are two people, one attacks the other, when in court it will be that specific incident that is going to be the focus of the trial. Now if a bad man was being tried the court is not going to accept his insistance that the person he assaulted has done so to others. Of course bad men like this frequently will say why are they being punished if all those other people doing the same are not....

Wrong. If someone testifies in a trial, he can and will be disqulified as a witness based on character, ie drug abuser, alcoholist, etc.

A lawyer will be disqualified if he had committed a felony.

Turkey in this case could be equated to a witness or the lawyer, which claim to support or represent a Palestinian case. Looking at their own recent history and current behaviour, they are disqualified to do so.

...quit pretending those concerned about the flotilla fiasco and are critical of Israel are all ignoring every other atrocity in the world. That is not the case. In this case unarmed Turkish civilians were murdered by armed Israeli soldiers.

Pretending? that's the truth. Out of 40 UN Human Rights Comittee resolutions since 2006, 33 were against Israel. No one protests against Turkey's behaviour, and you don't see it on the news 24/7.

When people will judge atrocities around the world in the correct perspective, I'll look at accusations against Israel from those pople more seriously.

As for the "murder" - that was self-defense. How come none of the other 5 ships had any violence on them? Or even the latest Irish one?

Today it was disclosed that there 5 international known terrorists on the Marmara.

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Rosewin

Turkey is the victim. The witnesses are European MPs, a former American ambassador, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, among many others.

Your other complaint that Israel is being unfairly targeted has merit, but only when it comes to the bias of the UN, it does not in anyway change the fact that Israel still committed these 33 crimes.

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Black Red Devil

Pretending? that's the truth. Out of 40 UN Human Rights Comittee resolutions since 2006, 33 were against Israel.

[sIGH] Poor Israel the whole world's against them! I wish these evil humanitarians would stop harassing them and stop being antisemitic!!

No one protests against Turkey's behaviour, and you don't see it on the news 24/7.

When people will judge atrocities around the world in the correct perspective, I'll look at accusations against Israel from those pople more seriously.

Paranoia and denial. This is actually a sign of schizophrenia you know? 33 against 7. Hmmm, I know where my money's going.

As for the "murder" - that was self-defense. How come none of the other 5 ships had any violence on them? Or even the latest Irish one?

Today it was disclosed that there 5 international known terrorists on the Marmara.

Self defense. LOL. Machine guns against knives and clubs. Also, I thought self defense is when you defend yourself against an aggressor? What would you call someone boarding another ones ship?

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odas

Self defense. LOL. Machine guns against knives and clubs. Also, I thought self defense is when you defend yourself against an aggressor? What would you call someone boarding another ones ship?

Dunno. A pirat?

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odas

Sorted out? how, by Turkey continuing ignorance of UN resolutions? Turkey is still occupying the northern part of the island, declared an illegal state called "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" or something like that, and continue to settle Turkish citizens from it's mainland illegaly. These are exact same allegations Israel gets, yet we didn't annexed the territories and we acknowledge the fact that we'll be leaving them sometimes in the future. The turks do not. And you don't see the UN obssesing with them. How come?

As for the Armenian genocide - so your saying basically, someone could get away with it because it's been too long? sorry, there is no age for such crimes. Especially with the fact that they are actively deny it - you can get a degree in Turkey for armenian genocide denial! It's as if Germany would not acknowledge the Holocaust.

The turks are actively opressing their kurdish citizens, comprising some 20% of turkey's population. they do not acknowledge their culture or ethnic existance (they simply claim they are iranian turks), and committ what some describe as "cultural genocide". In their fight against kurdish terrorism, they killed 37,000 Kurds in just 16 years. It's more than almost 4 times the number of Palestinians who died in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 62 years. Yet no one speaks out. No one cares. And the Turks have the nerve and hypocricy to claim Israel is a war criminal?

Turkey invades Iraqi Kurdistan on a regular basis, with some 50,000 turkish soldiers crossing the border back in the early 2000s, to kill off kurds. Turkish member of parliament of kurdish origin, who dared to speak kurdish infront of the parliament, was thrown to jail.

You basically ignore grave human rights violations and horrible atrocities committed by Turkey, just so they current Israeli bashing will be legitimate. But seriously, out of all the possible western countries that could speak out against Israel, Turkey is the worst candidate to criticise us about human rights violations or about occupations. They should check their own log before telling us about our splinter.

It is just funny how soon Israel stabs Turkey in the back. Now Erikl is all over the terrorist Turks.

Erikl, just a question, in which society did the Jews live the most secure? Turkey-Ottoman empire.

When the Jews wher prosecuted by christians in Spain, Portugal, France.....where did they flee? Turkey.

You are forgetting friends very fast.

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Rosewin

It is just funny how soon Israel stabs Turkey in the back. Now Erikl is all over the terrorist Turks.

Erikl, just a question, in which society did the Jews live the most secure? Turkey-Ottoman empire.

When the Jews wher prosecuted by christians in Spain, Portugal, France.....where did they flee? Turkey.

You are forgetting friends very fast.

Yes, yes, and yes.

To be fair though Erikl might simply be repeating everything the IDF and Hasbara disseminate but has been above board personally with all those that disagree with him.

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Erikl

It is just funny how soon Israel stabs Turkey in the back. Now Erikl is all over the terrorist Turks.

Erikl, just a question, in which society did the Jews live the most secure? Turkey-Ottoman empire.

When the Jews wher prosecuted by christians in Spain, Portugal, France.....where did they flee? Turkey.

You are forgetting friends very fast.

Forget friends? the Turks stabed us in the back, and did so in a very ugly way. After all, it's Turkey who became all anti-Israeli all of the sudden, without us doing anything to them. They want to attack our human rights record - they should check their own first.

I have no grudge against the Turks of 1942 - but they accepted Jews for economical reason - ie they weren't as anti-Semitic as the Christians. But Jews under Islamic rule, everywhere but Moorish Spain, were Dhimmis - second class citizens, who had to pay a special tax to avoid forced conversion.

As for my own personal opinion - I live in a democracy (although you claim I'm not), and even as a soldier I'm entitled to have my own personal opinion and express them outside of politics (because in Israel, active soldiers cannot get involved in political activities).

I have studied the Armenian genocide in university, as part of my B.A in political science. So my opinion of the Turks when it comes to this subject is firm and has nothing to do with the current political situation.

Although, I was hoping the Turks will never go Islamic again, like Iran did back in the 1970s. Unfortunately, just like Iran, we can't seem to trust a muslim majority country, even a democracy like Turkey, because the radical muslims will soon try to hijack it and declare Jihad on us.

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Rosewin

Israel needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Israel. Talk about biting your foot off.

Edited by Rosewin

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eqgumby

:no:

when all else fails, defame the enemy's character. a wondrous tactic that is often employed by those choosing a pro israeli stance (as well as groups like the ADL and other israeli arms of PR). it deflects attention away from the true matters at hand, while painting the target in a negative light. if you weren't so transparent then i would give you a pat on the back for a job well done. oh, well, nice attempt anyways.

the only people who would fall for this patter, are the ones who's heads were still up their arses when they read it. your objectives are blatantly transparent when you consider that every claim you have made is extremely weak - at best - yet portrayed as beyond a doubt fact.

as for the audio recording. well, how can we be expected to take any sort of 'evidence' as legitimate when the same the people who were involved the crime, are the ones investigating it? it's truly ridiculous. a couple of questions for you. do you feel that it is possible that this tape could have been tampered with, or even completely fabricated?

but more importantly, how does this even relate to the actual matter at hand? when all you have is baseless, unproven accusations coming from a source that hardly has an impartial stance in the matter.

see what i mean about your method of distraction?

So, sum it up.

You're saying the "peace flotilla" was just that, peaceful, and that no one said these anti-semetic things, and that the video showing the soldiers being attacked is a fraud too?

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odas

Forget friends? the Turks stabed us in the back, and did so in a very ugly way. After all, it's Turkey who became all anti-Israeli all of the sudden, without us doing anything to them. They want to attack our human rights record - they should check their own first.

I have no grudge against the Turks of 1942 - but they accepted Jews for economical reason - ie they weren't as anti-Semitic as the Christians. But Jews under Islamic rule, everywhere but Moorish Spain, were Dhimmis - second class citizens, who had to pay a special tax to avoid forced conversion.

As for my own personal opinion - I live in a democracy (although you claim I'm not), and even as a soldier I'm entitled to have my own personal opinion and express them outside of politics (because in Israel, active soldiers cannot get involved in political activities).

I have studied the Armenian genocide in university, as part of my B.A in political science. So my opinion of the Turks when it comes to this subject is firm and has nothing to do with the current political situation.

Although, I was hoping the Turks will never go Islamic again, like Iran did back in the 1970s. Unfortunately, just like Iran, we can't seem to trust a muslim majority country, even a democracy like Turkey, because the radical muslims will soon try to hijack it and declare Jihad on us.

Not only 1942. Hundrets of years earlier. What happened when the Moors lost Spain with the Jews? Killed, forsed to convert to Christianity, expelled. The Lucky ones, yes Lucky ones, fled to Turkey and with the Moors the earlier ones. With the Muslims.

Yes they paid tax but so did everyone else who was not muslim at the time. At leaset the Tax was used in many ways including the building of Synagogs.

And what changed the mind of the Turks? How about the massacre of hundrets of civilians in Gaza?

And still, even after that Turkey continued to be a friend of Israel. 80000 tourists from Israel visit safely Turkey each year. Nearly 50000 Turks visit Israel. All gone now.

As for the Armenian genocide, the government who was back in place then should be pnished.

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