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Erikl

Flotilla passengers: Go back to Auschwitz

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Rosewin

You still haven't even posted the article from the Sunday Times that all this 'isreali ethno-bomb' BS is based on.

Here you go, Wired Magazine. It mentions the original Sunday Times article and also repeats parts of it.

Israel is reportedly developing a biological weapon that would harm Arabs while leaving Jews unaffected, according to a report in London's Sunday Times.

The report, citing Israeli military and western intelligence sources, says that scientists are trying to identify distinctive genes carried by Arabs to create a genetically modified bacterium or virus.

The "ethno-bomb" is reportedly Israel's response to the threat that Iraq may be just weeks away from completing its own biological weapons.

The "ethno-bomb" program is based at Israel's Nes Tziyona research facility. Scientists are trying to use viruses and bacteria to alter DNA inside living cells and attack only those cells bearing Arabic genes.

The task is very complex because both Arabs and Jews are Semitic peoples. But according to the report, the Israelis have succeeded in isolating particular characteristics of certain Arabs, "particularly the Iraqi people."

Dedi Zucker, a member of the Israeli parliament, denounced the research in the Sunday Times. "Morally, based on our history, and our tradition and our experience, such a weapon is monstrous and should be denied."

Last month, Foreign Report claimed that Israel was following in the ignominious footsteps of apartheid-era research, in their supposed efforts to develop an "ethnic bullet."

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1998/11/16272

Jane's Foreign Report is pretty reliable.

Edited by Rosewin

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Moon Monkey

Here you go, Wired Magazine. It mentions the original Sunday Times article and also repeats parts of it.

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1998/11/16272

Jane's Foreign Report is pretty reliable.

Wired Magazine mentions it .... so what ? you mentioned it, I mentioned it so did your original history rewriting site. How is it being mentioned the same as providing it. Once you provide this fabulous and strangely shy Sunday Times article then we can start to deal with the evidence it provides.

Yes Janes Foreign report is pretty reliable, Cracked.com is pretty funny.... but what has any of that got to do with this thread ?

Post the Sunday Times article all this is based on, how can we be still discussing an article you refuse to share ?

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Paranormalcy

I know it is possible for people to debate and discuss these threads without being smarmy and hyper-critical of each other. Maybe it needs to be given a cooling off period so posters can remember it has a TOPIC and isn't about the posters?

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keithisco

The full article appears here:

ATS Link

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Moon Monkey

The full article appears here:

ATS Link

ATS ? Keith we have seen the words many times on conspiracy, re-writing history and anti-semetic blogs. You might as well have linked this thread.

I also find it hard to believe (I know they did) that they ran such a story with the entire weight of evidence being 'a scientist said'. So lets see the Sunday Times article, in the Sunday Times if you please as my contention is that they quickly realised it was a hoax from a israeli science fiction author who sent this to Ha-aretz 2 years earlier.

For instance if the claim was The Sunday Times publishing Vanunus account of Israels nuclear research we would quickly go here to the page on timesonline but where do we go for the claims in this article?

They didn't run the second part of the story, distanced themselves from it and that the 2 authors have never spoken of this story again. With the story being so fabulous we need an accredited news source, the follow up story...maybe another newspaper running with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_bioweapon#Israeli_.22ethno-bomb.22_controversy

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Rosewin

The only two sources listed in that wikipedia section that claims it was a hoax are from salon.com and The New York Post.

The New York Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch who began FOX News of all things. This is also what The Jewish Chronicle has to say about him.

Murdoch ownership has been a benign influence in the Israel-Arab conflict. At times of greatest peril for Israel had no better friend in the UK media than the Sun and other Murdoch titles.

http://www.thejc.com/comment/mediawatch/22326/keep-close-eye-murdoch-ii

This is what Murdoch said while speaking to the American Jewish Committee in 2009.

Most fundamentally, we see a growing assault on both the legitimacy and security of the State of Israel.

...

Whether Israel is ever found guilty of any war crime hardly matters.

...

I thank you for listening. I thank you for this award.

http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.5018279/k.7184/AJC_Honors_Rupert_Murdoch.htm

So if the New York Post says it is a hoax and 'blood libel' against Jews it must be, right? He has no reason to lie does he?

Next we have two people, yes who are in their field so that is taken into consideration, but also worked for the federal government, claim that an ethnic bioweapon is 'far-fethced' and that 'it just doesn't make much sense, from a scientific point of view.' Not exactly what I call truly de-bunking it.

Their two views are also in sharp contrast to William Cohen saying that such weapons were being developed, he was only Secretary of Defense at the time, you know the people who actually decide policy. We have Dr. Christopher Davis from the UK intelligence apparatus tell PBS Frontline that such weapons were possible. We have a Red Cross report saying such weapons are possible. Where do you think they get their information? They make it up?

All of them must be wrong though because two federal employees and the New York Post said otherwise. Here is the Salon article.

"I think it's nonsense," said Bill Richardson, a deputy assistant secretary of defense responsible for chemical and biological warfare programs in the Reagan and Bush administrations. Even if an "ethno-bomb" were developed in a petri dish, he said, "there's a long leap from having a mechanism to having an environmental viability, a weapon, or vector, or means of dissemination," he said.

Likewise, Dr. Daphne Kamely, a leading microbiologist who has worked on environmental safety issues for the Defense Department, as well as the National Institutes for Health and the Environmental Protection Agency, said, "That sounds too far-fetched to me."

"It's like saying to a person, because your skin is black, the rest of you is different, too," added Kamely, who has led several delegations to Middle East scientific conferences. "It's not. It just doesn't make much sense, from a scientific point of view."

One hurdle in assessing the report is that Israel's chemical and biological weapons program is shrouded in secrecy. The program is said to be based at the biological institute in Nes Tziyona, the main research facility for Israel's clandestine arsenal of chemical and biological weapons.

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/12/02news.html

One more factor to take into account. They have already been doing this kind of work, genetic marker isolation, for benign reasons. Let us hope they actually are not using this knowledge to try and create such horrendous weapons. That is wishful thinking though. If it can be done someone is doing it and it is most likely that they would be looking into this kind of stuff.

In fact, it was from this research, prompted by an observation of the different physical features between Ashkenazi Jews and other of the world's Jewish ethnic divisions, that modern genetic genealogy was born.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#DNA_clues

Edited by Rosewin

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keithisco

Here is an interesting snippett.... The Times is also owned by Rupert Murdoch, and a lot of anti - Israely Govt stories have mysteriously disappeared from their archives!!unsure.gif I wonder what could be the reason??w00t.gif

Whether Israel is ever found guilty of any war crime hardly matters

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Moon Monkey

The only two sources listed in that wikipedia section that claims it was a hoax are from salon.com and The New York Post.

The New York Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch who began FOX News of all things. This is also what The Jewish Chronicle has to say about him.

http://www.thejc.com/comment/mediawatch/22326/keep-close-eye-murdoch-ii

This is what Murdoch said while speaking to the American Jewish Committee in 2009.

http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.5018279/k.7184/AJC_Honors_Rupert_Murdoch.htm

So if the New York Post says it is a hoax and 'blood libel' against Jews it must be, right? He has no reason to lie does he?

Next we have two people, yes who are in their field so that is taken into consideration, but also worked for the federal government, claim that an ethnic bioweapon is 'far-fethced' and that 'it just doesn't make much sense, from a scientific point of view.' Not exactly what I call truly de-bunking it.

Their two views are also in sharp contrast to William Cohen saying that such weapons were being developed, he was only Secretary of Defense at the time, you know the people who actually decide policy. We have Dr. Christopher Davis from the UK intelligence apparatus tell PBS Frontline that such weapons were possible. We have a Red Cross report saying such weapons are possible. Where do you think they get their information? They make it up?

All of them must be wrong though because two federal employees and the New York Post said otherwise. Here is the Salon article.

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/12/02news.html

One more factor to take into account. They have already been doing this kind of work, genetic marker isolation, for benign reasons. Let us hope they actually are not using this knowledge to try and create such horrendous weapons. That is wishful thinking though. If it can be done someone is doing it and it is most likely that they would be looking into this kind of stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#DNA_clues

As keith says above, Murdoch also owns the Sunday Times. Do you not wonder why another Murdoch paper calls it a hoax and the Sunday Times never touches it again ? Maybe as part of the same organisation they know its a hoax.

It was shown many pages ago in this thread that jews cannot be differentiated from their neighbours in the middle east. It was also shown that jews of any part or the disporsa shared make-up not found in their 'hosts' (except India and Ethiopea). But we digress.

Please, I beg you, show me any evidence from a proper news source of this story that 'Israel is developing an ethno-bomb'. The Times article, reasons why the follow up article wasn't published, any follow up article on this monumental story, interviews with the authors, the authors sources, any other respectable newspaper that carried the story, anything. And please, I again beg you, to focus on your own claim that Israel is developing an ethno-bomb and not some tangential story that it may theoretically possible for someone to try and do it. Thank you.

Here is an interesting snippett.... The Times is also owned by Rupert Murdoch, and a lot of anti - Israely Govt stories have mysteriously disappeared from their archives!!unsure.gif I wonder what could be the reason??w00t.gif

Here is another interesting snippet, Murdoch bought the Sunday Times in 1981. They blew Vanunu's story all over the world in 1984 and went to huge lengths to make the story itself and the follow up kidnap and trial and sentence look as bad for Israel as they could. Now all those stories and others (and there have been many other stories run) that were damaging to Israel over the last 29 years are very available.

Now what is the difference between all those stories and this ethno-bomb one that they, and everyone else, have distanced themselves from ? Maybe evidence, sourced material, that they weren't confirmed hoaxes ?

I wonder what you think could be the reason, I'll ask you to provide any of the information that I asked Rose above. Thank you.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Rosewin

We have digressed. There is enough information and sources offered to satisfy most minds as to their perspectives.

Here are these additional thoughts.

South Africa, when an apartheid regime, pursued but reportedly never had a chance in creating these ethnic bioweapons. I guess when Nelson Mandela took power these type of programs ended there, good. This was revealed in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

A South African scientist has told the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that the apartheid government considered trying to develop a bacteria which would kill only blacks.

The former head of a military research laboratory, Daan Goosen, told the commission that the project had the backing of South Africa's then Surgeon General, who described it as "the most important project in the country."

Although the substance was never developed, Mr Goosen said that an unknown European scientist claimed to have developed a strain of bacteria in the early 1980s "capable of killing pigmented people"

...

Mr Goosen told the commission he now realised that he was wrong to work on the projects, but said he had not been thinking rationally at the time.

"It was a time of conflict" he said. "Communism was coming. It was total onslaught."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/110947.stm

Here Israel most likely shares nuclear weapon technology with the apartheid-era South African government.

Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons.

...

They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted.

...

South Africa eventually built its own nuclear bombs, albeit possibly with Israeli assistance. But the collaboration on military technology only grew over the following years. South Africa also provided much of the yellowcake uranium that Israel required to develop its weapons.

...

Israel pressured the present South African government not to declassify documents obtained by Polakow-Suransky. "The Israeli defence ministry tried to block my access to the Secment agreement on the grounds it was sensitive material, especially the signature and the date," he said. "The South Africans didn't seem to care; they blacked out a few lines and handed it over to me. The ANC government is not so worried about protecting the dirty laundry of the apartheid regime's old allies."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

I wonder what else these two regimes shared? Did not Israel hire some of the scientists working on some of these programs for South Africa once apartheid ended there?

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

We have digressed. There is enough information and sources offered to satisfy most minds as to their perspectives.

Here are these additional thoughts.

South Africa, when an apartheid regime, pursued but reportedly never had a chance in creating these ethnic bioweapons. I guess when Nelson Mandela took power these type of programs ended there, good. This was revealed in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/110947.stm

Here Israel most likely shares nuclear weapon technology with the apartheid-era South African government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

I wonder what else these two regimes shared? Did not Israel hire some of the scientists working on some of these programs for South Africa once apartheid ended there?

What does that have to do with anything? :blink:

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Moon Monkey

What does that have to do with anything? :blink:

It has been like that for pages, thats why I get infuriated and warned. This is what I asked:

Please, I beg you, show me any evidence from a proper news source of this story that 'Israel is developing an ethno-bomb'. The Times article, reasons why the follow up article wasn't published, any follow up article on this monumental story, interviews with the authors, the authors sources, any other respectable newspaper that carried the story, anything. And please, I again beg you, to focus on your own claim that Israel is developing an ethno-bomb and not some tangential story that it may theoretically possible for someone to try and do it. Thank you

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Pseudo Intellectual

Well, Rosewin, do you have any evidence for this conspiracy theory? If not, say so. There's no shame in admitting being wrong. :yes:

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Rosewin

What does that have to do with anything?

You are encouraged to review the whole of this thread if you have any confusion regarding the context of that post.

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Moon Monkey

You are encouraged to review the whole of this thread if you have any confusion regarding the context of that post.

I am a little confused as to its context regarding the post it was a reply to. Which was:

Please, I beg you, show me any evidence from a proper news source of this story that 'Israel is developing an ethno-bomb'. The Times article, reasons why the follow up article wasn't published, any follow up article on this monumental story, interviews with the authors, the authors sources, any other respectable newspaper that carried the story, anything. And please, I again beg you, to focus on your own claim that Israel is developing an ethno-bomb and not some tangential story that it may theoretically possible for someone to try and do it. Thank you

Actually, answer or don't answer, I am stepping out before I get myself banned.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Erikl

There is enough evidence to show the development of such weapons is a possibility according to intelligence sources as provided. There is one story appearing in the press that said Israel was pursuing such technology. That is all I have asserted and it was proven with the sources offered.

Besides that my own personal sentiment is that the current and past Israeli regime would most likely pursue such technology based on their racist ideology of wanting a majority ethnic state.

Where? show me a scientific research that can validate the fact that we, as humans, know how to identify a specific ethnic group by one single gene that they don't share with anyone else? the genetics of ethnic group is statistic - for example, the Cohen gene, which is very common among Cohanim (Jews of priestly origin), also exist in non-Jews (Kurds) and non-Cohanim Jews. It also exist, to a far lesser degree, in many other ethnic groups. So if Israel would want to kill all it's Cohanim (let's say some weird religious movement in Judaism develops and becomes wide spread in Israel), they will also kill many other Jews, Samaritans, Syrians, Lebanese and Kurds.

it

There is no specific marker of one person who can indentify them as belonging to a certain race. We are only 0.5% genetic distance from the Chimps, how diverese do you think one Caucasian middle eastern from another?

As for your own personal sentiment, other than being purely anti-Israeli and even racist by itself, it doesn't make science fiction a true story.

Israel is not ruled by racist ideology - we are not the ones who are obssesed of ethnically cleanes our country from our minorities (as opposed to the Palestinians who insist of having their future Palestine clean of Jews). Minority here get full political and civil rights.

We simply observed what happens when Muslim Arabs become the majority in a democracy - ie Lebanon in the 1970s - they tend to destroy the democracy and genocide the then non-Muslim minority.

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