Gaza flotilla attack: Autopsies

[Moon Monkey]

So I take you won't accept the results of a US forensic team either? I'm not saying this will happen, but if the family is going through diplomatic channels, I'd assume it's for the return of the remains to the US for burial. It would be prudent for them to request a second autopsy.

Its not that I wouldn't accept the findings of a US autopsy but I can absoluetly tell you right now if it differs slightly from the turkish one towards a 'maybe they weren't executed by israel' result I can name every person on this forum who will shout..."US bias towards Israel" and "It is a cover up". Better if it is truly independent, an international team who's findings are totally open for non-affiliated forensic scientists to discuss in an open forum.

[Rosewin]

Allowing autopsies of the victims to be published on the open web so anyone from the public can review them is quite macabre and in bad form.

[Moon Monkey]

Allowing autopsies of the victims to be published on the open web so anyone from the public can review them is quite macabre and in bad form.

I am not talking about putting the autopsy on youtube I am talking about the ballistic results, findings, thoughts, notes and sketches in an open forum...the autopsy to be conducted by a international team of well respected individuals. Why would you object to that ?

Edited June 5, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[+susieice]

Its not that I wouldn't accept the findings of a US autopsy but I can absoluetly tell you right now if it differs slightly from the turkish one towards a 'maybe they weren't executed by israel' result I can name every person on this forum who will shout..."US bias towards Israel" and "It is a cover up". Better if it is truly independent, an international team who's findings are totally open for non-affiliated forensic scientists to discuss in an open forum.

I hear ya. If this man was indeed shot several times in the back and once in the head like the Turks say he was, even an undertaker would notice that. Let's just hope the body doesn't disappear all together.

[TheResearcher]

You mean the pre-edited footage only released in segments by the Israelis?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/04/israeli-pr-machine-gaza-flotilla-media-battle

Yes yes, it is edited of course. But its hardly the point, edited or not it still shows the chaotic situation on the deck.

[Rosewin]

I am not talking about putting the autopsy on youtube I am talking about the ballistic results, findings, thoughts, notes and sketches in an open forum...the autopsy to be conducted by a international team of well respected individuals. Why would you object to that ?

I would not object to it but I would not request it in the first place either.

[Moon Monkey]

I would not object to it but I would not request it in the first place either.

So the unseen ATK report is more than enough for you. Alrighty then.

[Rosewin]

That is your assumption only. Additional autopsies and gathering of forensic evidence if conducted by the UN investigating team that has been created and even the US would be welcomed by me.

More info regarding the incident:

According to the scientists at the ATK, Dogan, who held US and Turkish citizenship was shot five times – from close range in the right side of his nose, in the back of the head, in the back and twice in the left leg.

The oldest victim was 60-year-old Ibrahim Bilgen, a Turkish politician, engineer and activist who was married with six children. He had been shot once in the right temple, once in the right side of his chest, once in the back and once in the hip.

Cetin Topcuotlu, a 54-year old former Taekwondo champion who worked as a coach for the Turkish national team, was shot three times – once in the back of his head, once in his hip and once in his belly. His wife, Cigden, who was with him on the Mavi Marmara said at his funeral on Thursday she would take part in further flotillas to Gaza with her son.

...

Patel claimed that as soon as the Israeli Defence Force helicopter appeared above the Mavi Marmara, "it started using immediately live ammunition" without any warning being issued.

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.

Alex Harrison, a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women, said the Israelis used rubber bullets, sound bombs and tasers against them.

"Two women were hooded, they had their eyes taped," she said, describing how the yacht was quickly overwhelmed. "We stood and tried to obstruct the armed, masked men and maintained no other defence and still they used violence."

Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

The violence was "initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale," she said, adding she was pleased her colleagues on the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel, were continuing to Gaza this weekend.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-attack-autopsy-results

[Moon Monkey]

That is your assumption only. Additional autopsies and gathering of forensic evidence if conducted by the UN investigating team that has been created and even the US would be welcomed by me.

Isn't that what I have just been saying ? Whatever.

[Ryinrea]

The U.N. has been suspect from the start of this, why would he believe them? I don't think there's a single report on any of this that you can 100% believe because there is no such thing as a group that is both neutral toward Israel and investigating this fiasco. You either support them, hate them, or won't touch the subject with a 10 foot pole.

Bawawawa, I am neutral in this, but I think the U.N is much better, because they actually care about laws that Israel broke in the first place. The Gold stone report for example was done by a Jew who tried to soften the crimes in the report, and it still came out that Israel has committed war crimes, and so did Hamas.

[MichaelW]

When the Palestinians bombs Israel, it's just. When Israel bombs Gaza, it's a massacre.

When a Palestinian shoots an Israeli, no one bats an eyelid. When Israel shoots a Palestinian, everyone screams blue murder.

Notice how this reflects every single situation that the Israelis have been involved in.

[Rosewin]

When the Palestinians bombs Israel, it's just. When Israel bombs Gaza, it's a massacre.

When a Palestinian shoots an Israeli, no one bats an eyelid. When Israel shoots a Palestinian, everyone screams blue murder.

Notice how this reflects every single situation that the Israelis have been involved in.

In the last conflict, the Gaza War, also called Operation Cast Lead by the Israelis, a total of 13 Israelis died. 10 were combatants, 3 were not. Want to know how many Palestinian civilians died? 762 total non-combatants which is more than half of the total killed on the Palestinian side. Unacceptable to portray the Israelis as anything but victims. They are not victims but agressors.

The questions are plentiful and troubling: the mass killing of civilians, among them 300 children and 100 women; the shooting at medical crews; the use of illegal munitions against a civilian population, including white phosphorus shells; the prevention of the evacuation of wounded; bombing and shelling of schools, hospitals, supply convoys and a UN facility. These questions cannot remain unanswered. The suspicion that Israel committed war crimes in Gaza is liable to cause it great damage. This is precisely the moment at which Israel needs to preempt the others and investigate itself.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/arabisraeliconflict/a/me090423a.htm

This is the reason why most of the international arrest warrants for war crimes are mainly for the Israelis out of all the war crimes committed during that conflict. Those Israelis cannot even travel to Britain or they will be arrested upon landing for example. Israel is a country that harbors war criminals. Certainly not the victims they portray themselves to be.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Rosewin

[MichaelW]

In the last conflict, the Gaza War, also called Operation Cast Lead by the Israelis, a total of 13 Israelis died. 10 were combatants, 3 were not. Want to know how many Palestinian civilians died? 762 total non-combatants which is more than half of the total killed on the Palestinian side. Unacceptable to portray the Israelis as anything but victims. They are not victims but agressors.

And who started the war? Hamas. Who fired the first shot? Hamas. Who used civilians as shields? Hamas. You have overlooked these facts in your propoganda posts.

[Rosewin]

You are acting as if even if Israel did not start it that it excuses them for war crimes. Did you even read what they did? Do you approve?

Here are the wanted if you wish to see.

• Israeli officials wanted for war crimes:
  
• 1 Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
  
• 2 Defense Minister Ehud Barak
  
• 3 Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni
  
• 4 Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi
  
• 5 Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan
  
• 6 Commander of the Gaza war -- Operation Cast Lead -- Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
  
• 7 Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin
  
• 8 Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen
  
• 9 Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov
  
• 10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy
  
• 11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik
  
• 12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot
  
• 13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza
  
• 14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter
  
• 15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled

http://wanted.org.il/ehud_olmert_en.htm

Edited June 6, 2010 by Rosewin

[MichaelW]

Oh really? Israeli war crimes? Wow, you more duped than I first imagined.

I'm sure you think Hamas is exempt from being labelled as "war criminals" even though all their targets were civillian. It's amazing how one can bend the truth to make their points seem valid.

[odas]

Oh really? Israeli war crimes? Wow, you more duped than I first imagined.

I'm sure you think Hamas is exempt from being labelled as "war criminals" even though all their targets were civillian. It's amazing how one can bend the truth to make their points seem valid.

Somebody did not read the UN statements. Edited, because I forgot to mention, it is not Rosewin.

Edited June 6, 2010 by odas

[Pseudo Intellectual]

In the last conflict, the Gaza War, also called Operation Cast Lead by the Israelis, a total of 13 Israelis died. 10 were combatants, 3 were not. Want to know how many Palestinian civilians died? 762 total non-combatants which is more than half of the total killed on the Palestinian side. Unacceptable to portray the Israelis as anything but victims. They are not victims but agressors.

Can you give me the number of Japanese and American civilian casualties in WW2?

[+susieice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

[Pseudo Intellectual]

580,000 Japanese civilians, compared to 1,700 American civilians.

Hmmmm... By Rosewin's logic, America was the aggressor, not the victim, in the war between Japan and the US.

[+DieChecker]

Indeed you're correct. These autopsy verify the Israelis account if anything. Look how many leg shots there were. You don't tend to get those from special forces operators unless they're specifically aiming for them.

And... a leg shot was not enough to incapacitate a knife wielding activist? Why shot 6 times? Did they shoot him in the head first and then in the legs, or the other way round?

You are not actually proposing that trained marines are actually going to open fire in such a way that they are in positions to attack a target from all 360 degrees at once, because this is the only way someone could simultaneously be shot in both the front and the back, which would also require that the Israeli marines were actually in the crossfire of each other in what we have seen? Trained marines would not allow such battle formations putting each other in harms way. The only other way something like that could happen was if the marines were stationed in sniper towers which surrounded the victims but as we know most of the wounds were at close quarters which points to something completely different.

I think you make a good point. They must have surrounded at least some of the activists to hit several of them from so many angles.

I think if any Israelis had died, even from friendly fire, we would have heard about it.

When the Palestinians bombs Israel, it's just. When Israel bombs Gaza, it's a massacre.

When a Palestinian shoots an Israeli, no one bats an eyelid. When Israel shoots a Palestinian, everyone screams blue murder.

I don't think anyone has said it is just of Hamas to bomb, or rocket attack Israel. Can you pull a quote? Anyway, the problem is that when a rocket attack destroys a building and kills 2 people, the Israelis respond with a air strike that kills 30 to 50 "confirmed Hamas soldiers", who actually could have been anyone. They WAY overreact every time. And they've been doing so since day one. And, WOW, it still is not working!!!

580,000 Japanese civilians, compared to 1,700 American civilians.

Hmmmm... By Rosewin's logic, America was the aggressor, not the victim, in the war between Japan and the US.

So you are saying the side with the most civilian kills will win? Why not just sink the ships then? Your arguement is seriously flawed. Modern wars are not won by body counts, but by influence.

[+DieChecker]

The activists need to plan better in case this happens again. They need to set up a remotely collected video system with like 20 to 40 cameras at various angles, all routed to a satilite feed. Then they will have as much evidence of what happened as they want. Trusting to outside media, or cell phone video feed is to chancy.

[Rosewin]

They did have professional media crews on board (television), as well as photographers and journalist. The Israelis jammed their signals so they had no outside communication before the raid. They also confiscated all the evidence and have only released edited portions of it as well as their own military operations footage. Israel, like all regimes that rule through hate, of course suppresses the media and does not allow them to objectively report the story.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Rosewin

[Pseudo Intellectual]

So you are saying the side with the most civilian kills will win? Why not just sink the ships then? Your arguement is seriously flawed. Modern wars are not won by body counts, but by influence.

No, my "argument" is that having less civilian casualties than the other side doesn't mean you're the aggressor and not the victim.

[MichaelW]

I don't think anyone has said it is just of Hamas to bomb, or rocket attack Israel. Can you pull a quote? Anyway, the problem is that when a rocket attack destroys a building and kills 2 people, the Israelis respond with a air strike that kills 30 to 50 "confirmed Hamas soldiers", who actually could have been anyone. They WAY overreact every time. And they've been doing so since day one. And, WOW, it still is not working!!!

But Hamas are civilians. All terrorist groups trawl the civilian population for fresh, uncorrupted minds to turn into suicidal Islamist maniacs. The PLO, Hezbollah, Fatah and certainly Hamas do this with propoganda against Israel and even the United States. When the situation turns against them, they use the civilians and aid agencies as sheilds so that when the Israelis blow them into next week, they can claim that the Israelis massacred innocent civilians and everyone believes them.

Israel has stepped up to the challenge every time their nation was threatened. How have they been in existance since 1948? If they didn't over react, would they be still here?

[Rosewin]

When the situation turns against them, they use the civilians and aid agencies as sheilds so that when the Israelis blow them into next week, they can claim that the Israelis massacred innocent civilians and everyone believes them.

Yet, there are Israelis wanted for war crimes for using human shields. Also when personnel from the Red Cross or the UN tell us through their reports that these things are true and Israel denies them, what does that say? You have a government that murders many civilians telling us that the folks from these charities and the UN are lying.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Rosewin