Gaza flotilla attack: Autopsies

[Agent X]

How many Israelis can Hamas kills until the world cares? Apparently, all of them. And then the world still wouldn't care.

See how easy that was?

[danielost]

In the last conflict, the Gaza War, also called Operation Cast Lead by the Israelis, a total of 13 Israelis died. 10 were combatants, 3 were not. Want to know how many Palestinian civilians died? 762 total non-combatants which is more than half of the total killed on the Palestinian side. Unacceptable to portray the Israelis as anything but victims. They are not victims but agressors.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/arabisraeliconflict/a/me090423a.htm

This is the reason why most of the international arrest warrants for war crimes are mainly for the Israelis out of all the war crimes committed during that conflict. Those Israelis cannot even travel to Britain or they will be arrested upon landing for example. Israel is a country that harbors war criminals. Certainly not the victims they portray themselves to be.

You forgot to put in the number of combatants killed. probable cant since none were reported. that is either no one knows how many since they dont wear uniforms or because they dont care,

[danielost]

You are acting as if even if Israel did not start it that it excuses them for war crimes. Did you even read what they did? Do you approve?

Here are the wanted if you wish to see.

• Israeli officials wanted for war crimes:
  
• 1 Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
  
• 2 Defense Minister Ehud Barak
  
• 3 Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni
  
• 4 Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi
  
• 5 Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan
  
• 6 Commander of the Gaza war -- Operation Cast Lead -- Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
  
• 7 Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin
  
• 8 Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen
  
• 9 Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov
  
• 10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy
  
• 11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik
  
• 12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot
  
• 13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza
  
• 14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter
  
• 15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled

http://wanted.org.il/ehud_olmert_en.htm

you mention all these people what war crimes did they commit.

[+DieChecker]

So why should terrorists be allowed to have a shield? Do you want to allow them to kill off everyone they don't want to live?

Why should Israel?

If Gaza is not a nation, then Israel should move in and wipe out the government, because they are terrorists. If it is a seperate nation, then they owe those people certain rights. Right now the Gazans get the worse of both situations.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

America complained about Guantanamo and eventually it was shut down.

What are you on about, Susie? It wasn't shut down.

Who is saying we should disarm Israel?

Rosewin, post #81.

Let us begin by disarming Israel.

What would allowing clothing, housing, food, baby supplies etc. do to Israel's security? Really the puny weapons those 40 Turks had on that ship was no threat to Israel's security.

No, but they were on their way to Gaza and thus violate the blockade. For all Israel knew, they could've had nuclear weapons on board.

Who do you think your kidding? And don't keep using the Holocaust as a reference. That was also a horrible thing that no one is advocating for.

What else do you think disarming Israel would accomplish? Do you think Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria and the rest would simply lay down their arms and be peaceful if Israel was disarmed? Or do you trust the "international community" to defend Israel, like they kept Hezbollah from re-arming? After all, we all know how that worked out, don't we?

[MichaelW]

No, nobody condemns Hamas for their crimes against Israel. But I've been told it's simply because they are not a sovereign country and therefore can not be accused of crimes. But, I have no clue how true that is.

It's only important when Israel tries to defend itself. Then israel must be held to higher standards of morality because they're the good guys.

Gaza is a legitimate country, and the only government anyone should recognize is the authority which controls the West Bank and Gaza under Mahmoud Abbas. However, the governing body, Hamas, is not a legimitate government because whilst it may claim Gaza, it doesn't claim all of Palestine territory which includes the West Bank. Plus the fact thatv they are a well known terrorist organization is beside the point. Unless Israel can claim Gaza again and then arrest the Hamas leaderhship before they jump the boat to Egypt, only then could the Israelis try Hamas for crimes.

As for Israel holding higher standards as the "good guys", hasn't any side during any war committed atrocities, no matter whether or not they were fighting for "freedom" or not. I can think of a whole bunch of crimes that France, Britain, Russia, even the United States have committed and yet no justice has come for them. Just because Israel blows up a few Palestinians doesn't make them war criminals.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

I wouldn't call Gaza a country. It's an autonomous Palestinian territory. Gaza and the West Bank are still technically Israeli.

[+susieice]

What are you on about, Susie? It wasn't shut down.

Rosewin, post #81.

No, but they were on their way to Gaza and thus violate the blockade. For all Israel knew, they could've had nuclear weapons on board.

Here you go with the disarming Israel again. And who is in Guantanamo now? You ask for links, you get them, move on.

What else do you think disarming Israel would accomplish? Do you think Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria and the rest would simply lay down their arms and be peaceful if Israel was disarmed? Or do you trust the "international community" to defend Israel, like they kept Hezbollah from re-arming? After all, we all know how that worked out, don't we?

[+susieice]

I wouldn't call Gaza a country. It's an autonomous Palestinian territory. Gaza and the West Bank are still technically Israeli.

It's a strip of land about 25 miles long and 7 miles wide at it's max.

[MichaelW]

You maybe right there. So then, if this is technically Israeli territory, then the Israeli government should be ablen to do whatever they want since "Palestine" is within their legal boundaries without the UN or some memebers screaming "massacre" everytime a bomb goes off. It would be like an independence movement for Puerto Rico launching Cuban made missiles at Miami every week.

[+susieice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/guantanamo-bay

http://www.periodico26.cu/english/news_cuba/june2010/cuba-gitmo060510.html

Edited June 7, 2010 by susieice

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Here you go with the disarming Israel again.

You were speaking of the Holocaust. I told you that disarming Israel would accomplish nothing but allow another Holocaust.

You And who is in Guantanamo now? You ask for links, you get them, move on.

Wikipedia has a nice list. Obama was going to close Gitmo, but, as expected, he failed.

[+susieice]

You were speaking of the Holocaust. I told you that disarming Israel would accomplish nothing but allow another Holocaust.

Wikipedia has a nice list. Obama was going to close Gitmo, but, as expected, he failed.

I think you posted before you read all the links. We'll just have to see. By the way, are you proud of what happened there? Just answer the question.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

What happened where?

And you said Gitmo was closed. I wasn't sure what you meant by that.

[+susieice]

You maybe right there. So then, if this is technically Israeli territory, then the Israeli government should be ablen to do whatever they want since "Palestine" is within their legal boundaries without the UN or some memebers screaming "massacre" everytime a bomb goes off. It would be like an independence movement for Puerto Rico launching Cuban made missiles at Miami every week.

An awful lot of bloodshed out of both sides for such a small place don't you think? If either one really cared, how long could it take to end this conflict?

[MichaelW]

In terms of size, yes. Overall, not really. The conflict there is more of a sideshow compared with other recent wars. We see the occasional bit on the news, albeit biased.

As for the war ending, I don't think it will happen. It's very hard to imagine either side wanting peace without complete annialation of either side. But I think Israel has taken the first steps towards peace by giving the Palestinians land. I think Hamas, Fatah and all Palestinians should be thankful for what they have at the moment. The ball's in Hamas' court really. If they want peace, they will get it.

[+susieice]

In terms of size, yes. Overall, not really. The conflict there is more of a sideshow compared with other recent wars. We see the occasional bit on the news, albeit biased.

As for the war ending, I don't think it will happen. It's very hard to imagine either side wanting peace without complete annialation of either side. But I think Israel has taken the first steps towards peace by giving the Palestinians land. I think Hamas, Fatah and all Palestinians should be thankful for what they have at the moment. The ball's in Hamas' court really. If they want peace, they will get it.

Or somebody could get some hoozpa. That probably doesn't sound good but really, sounds like every inch of it is blood-soaked and the Palestinian civilians are barely existing as human beings.

[Rosewin]

What are you on about, Susie? It wasn't shut down.

Rosewin, post #81.

No, but they were on their way to Gaza and thus violate the blockade. For all Israel knew, they could've had nuclear weapons on board.

What else do you think disarming Israel would accomplish? Do you think Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria and the rest would simply lay down their arms and be peaceful if Israel was disarmed? Or do you trust the "international community" to defend Israel, like they kept Hezbollah from re-arming? After all, we all know how that worked out, don't we?

I hope we are discussing nuclear disarmament. Yes, because of the threat that region poses to the rest of the world, because any conflict there would draw in others, so we need a nuclear-free Middle East region. That means no nation in that region should be allowed to possess nukes. In turn the UN can offer Israel protection if required but they would still keep their military sans any chemical weapons like white phosphorus.

While some might consider this a pipe dream the leaders of the world are already steady at work behind the scenes planning this (google search nuclear-free middle east region). It will take time but eventually Israel will be disarmed. It will take time but we must begin with Israel.

[Leonardo]

I would have more sympathy if this was all a peaceful effort to bring needed aid into Gaza. But it wasn't. If innocents were killed, I feel sorry for them, but at the same time, I know the Israeli troops did what they had to do, in self-defense.

You don't think Israel has a legitimate right to defend itself. Who's the real monster here?

Where are the weapons and/or terrorists that were on board the flotilla then? Why are they not being paraded by Israel as the justification for their actions?

'Defence', as an excuse, is only justifiable when there is a valid threat to defend against.

WMD's anyone?

Seems to me a comparable situation. Feed the public/media an excuse which is not the actual reason for the aggressive action taken.

I wouldn't call Gaza a country. It's an autonomous Palestinian territory. Gaza and the West Bank are still technically Israeli.

Which is rather hypocritical of Israel, taking into account their desire for an autonomous, recognised state which led to the events of 1949 and the creation of the Nation of Israel itself. If anyone should know how important to a people the recognition of them as a Nation is, it is Israel, yet they constantly refuse to allow that recognition to the Palestinians.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Leonardo

[Pseudo Intellectual]

The entire flotilla was co-organized by the IHH, a terrorist organization...

Edited June 7, 2010 by Pseudo Intellectual

[Pseudo Intellectual]

[Leonardo]

PI, are you being serious?!?!

How can a few sticks and some garden tools (plus a few knives - a majority of which may have been kitchen items) constitute such a threat to the Nation of Israel that the IDF has to launch an invasion of a flotilla of ships to prevent their entry into Gaza?

Please do not embarrass yourself so, nor treat those posting here as idiots.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Leonardo

[+susieice]

They're still pipes. Some wooden sticks, clubs if you want. Knives any sailor would carry. Gas masks aren't a weapon. There's no guns, rocket components, lead cases of uranium. Plans to meet at some point to exchange nuclear information.

[Rosewin]

That first video looks totally staged and the second shows kitchen knives which are common on ships that size.

Leo also makes an interesting point in that Israel out of all the nations in the world should know better then denying others self determination.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rosewin

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Israel didn't know what weapons the activists had then... That's why they prevented them from violating the blockade.

Those weapons (they're more than just "a few sticks and some garden tools", by the way, but alright) may not have been a threat to the nation of Israel, but they sure were a threat to the Israelis who boarded the ship, thus causing them to open fire in self-defense.