Gaza flotilla attack: Autopsies

[Leonardo]

Israel didn't know what weapons the activists had then... That's why they prevented them from violating the blockade.

Those weapons (they're more than just "a few sticks and some garden tools", by the way, but alright) may not have been a threat to the nation of Israel, but they sure were a threat to the Israelis who boarded the ship, thus causing them to open fire in self-defense.

The IDF would never have to claim 'self-defence' if they had not invaded the flotilla in the first place. What was their justification for doing so? Where is that evidence?

[+susieice]

al-Queda really has lost the Bin Laden millions haven't they. At first those few were supposedly linked to them.

[Leonardo]

That first video looks totally staged and the second shows kitchen knives which are common on ships that size.

I agree, Rosewin. Near the end of the video, we can see the ocean and there appears to be some swell. Yet the boat and the camera are rock-steady - no motion at all. Obviously the person shooting the video has the steadiest hand in the world, and is able to automatically compensate for any motion of the ship. I envy their skill.

[ExpandMyMind]

The entire flotilla was co-organized by the IHH, a terrorist organization...

as far as i'm aware, your country does not classify the IHH as a terrorist organisation.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

The IDF would never have to claim 'self-defence' if they had not invaded the flotilla in the first place. What was their justification for doing so? Where is that evidence?

The justification is that they were trying to violate the blockade...

Are you sure you're following the same story every one else is?

[The Infidel Guy]

The justification is that they were trying to violate the blockade...

Are you sure you're following the same story every one else is?

The same blockade that one of the Israeli Government Advisor is on record as saying: "the blockade is to put the palestinians on a diet"..... oh that blockade....

I like how you try to weave your way around the fact that the IDF were adamant that "terrorists and "weapons" were on board. Seems like your story is crumbling by the day.

Peace

T.I.G

[Moon Monkey]

PI, are you being serious?!?!

How can a few sticks and some garden tools (plus a few knives - a majority of which may have been kitchen items) constitute such a threat to the Nation of Israel that the IDF has to launch an invasion of a flotilla of ships to prevent their entry into Gaza?

Please do not embarrass yourself so, nor treat those posting here as idiots.

As you well know the flotilla was boarded to CHECK for weapons, if they KNEW there were weapons they wouldn't have gone in non-lethally. Forget the sticks, bars and knives as activist eyewitnesses have recounted that the live-fire shooting started after the first three israelis to board were beaten, stripped, taken hostage and disarmed. The eyewitnesses then saw young turkish men running back to the upper deck brandishing the israelis own pistols. Not israeli reports, activist reports.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

as far as i'm aware, your country does not classify the IHH as a terrorist organisation.

My country doesn't classify the Pakistani and Afghani Taliban as terrorist organizations either, but we all know they're terrorists, don't we?

[Pseudo Intellectual]

The same blockade that one of the Israeli Government Advisor is on record as saying: "the blockade is to put the palestinians on a diet"..... oh that blockade....

Regardless of what you think the reasons for the blockade were, the blockade does exist, and the activists were on their way to Gaza, even after the Israelis warned them several times not to.

I like how you try to weave your way around the fact that the IDF were adamant that "terrorists and "weapons" were on board. Seems like your story is crumbling by the day.

I've not weaving anything. You asked for terrorist-links and weapons. I gave you what you wanted.

[The Infidel Guy]

As you well know the flotilla was boarded to CHECK for weapons, if they KNEW there were weapons they wouldn't have gone in non-lethally. Forget the sticks, bars and knives as activist eyewitnesses have recounted that the live-fire shooting started after the first three israelis to board were beaten, stripped, taken hostage and disarmed. The eyewitnesses then saw young turkish men running back to the upper deck brandishing the israelis own pistols. Not israeli reports, activist reports.

A 19yr old U.S Citizen was shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest. Thats an execution.

In fact i don't know where your evidence comes from but as i have posted many times to no avail from you people is that the shooting started before they even boarded the boat hence the peace activists grabbed whatever they had for self defense.....that's logical.

Israel's story is crumbling by the day and your running out of "propaganda" to say.....International community is wide awake now. Not to mention the protests from Israeli citizens itself.....

Peace

T.I.G

[Leonardo]

The justification is that they were trying to violate the blockade...

Are you sure you're following the same story every one else is?

Really?

Israel knew of this flotilla before it even left port. Why did the Israeli Govt not request to send someone to inspect the ships then, identify they were carrying legitimate aid, and give the okay for the flotilla to make the journey?

Why, if their intelligence was so good that they knew terrorists and weapons were on board, do we not see the evidence of those things?

If they knew there were no terrorists or weapons were on board, or if they had no intelligence of that, then why did they carry out this (illegal) occupation of the ships?

There is a huge failure on Israel's part in every aspect of this situation, and there is no covering that up or justifying it.

Are you stating that the seizure of ships, in international waters btw, carrying legitimate humanitarian aid is justifiable by way of 'defending the Nation'?

If so, then please provide any evidence the Nation of Israel was in any way at threat from this flotilla.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Leonardo

[The Infidel Guy]

Regardless of what you think the reasons for the blockade were, the blockade does exist, and the activists were on their way to Gaza, even after the Israelis warned them several times not to.

The bloackade was used to starve the Palestinian people of aid...as stated the Israeli Governmental Advisor is on record as saying "to put them on a diet".

I've not weaving anything. You asked for terrorist-links and weapons. I gave you what you wanted.

You actually are. You posted evidence that "terrorists" were on board? Wow id like to see that please....

Weapons? What you talking about the knives, poles and chairs? Give me a break this has been covered on here ad-infinitum and debunked.

Your story is crumbling by the day like dry bread.

Peace

T.I.G

Really?

Israel knew of this flotilla before it even left port. Why did the Israeli Govt not request to send someone to inspect the ships then, identify they were carrying legitimate aid, and give the okay for the flotilla to make the journey?

Why, if their intelligence was so good that they knew terrorists and weapons were on board, do we not see the evidence of those things?

If they knew there were no terrorists or weapons were on board, or if they had no intelligence of that, then why did they carry out this (illegal) occupation of the ships?

There is a huge failure on Israel's part in every aspect of this situation, and there is no covering that up or justifying it.

Are you stating that the seizure of ships, in international waters btw, carrying legitimate humanitarian aid is justifiable by way of 'defending the Nation'?

If so, then please provide any evidence the Nation of Israel was in any way at threat from this flotilla.

Well said Leo....

Be prepared for a wave of propaganda....

Peace

T.I.G

[Moon Monkey]

A 19yr old U.S Citizen was shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest. Thats an execution.

In fact i don't know where your evidence comes from but as i have posted many times to no avail from you people is that the shooting started before they even boarded the boat hence the peace activists grabbed whatever they had for self defense.....that's logical.

Israel's story is crumbling by the day and your running out of "propaganda" to say.....International community is wide awake now. Not to mention the protests from Israeli citizens itself.....

Peace

T.I.G

My information comes from returning activists statements. Where people were shot makes no difference, once the shooting starts. Oh and we still only have ATK autopsy and ballistic statements.

Again for the 100th time, if the israelis were shooting before boarding why were the unarmed peaceful activists swarming the upper deck attacking the abseiling commandos.... were they all highly trained ninja bullet dodgers or were they batting the bullets away with their iron bars ?

[The Infidel Guy]

My information comes from returning activists statements. Where people were shot makes no difference, once the shooting starts. Oh and we still only have ATK autopsy and ballistic statements.

Again for the 100th time, if the israelis were shooting before boarding why were the unarmed peaceful activists swarming the upper deck attacking the abseiling commandos.... were they all highly trained ninja bullet dodgers or were they batting the bullets away with their iron bars ?

Please post your evidence for the returning activists who state that the shooting started once the IDF were on board. International Law stipulates that because it was a Turkish Vessel that no other investigation can take place other than from Turkish authorities. Thats the law.....

4 times in the head

once in the chest

19 yr old U.S Citizen

Come on....use some intellect will you.....thats an execution....it takes 4 bullets to the head and once in the chest for someone to be "disarmed".....Oh boy this conversation is getting better by the day.....

Im really eager to see Leonardo's questions answered...if you can....

Peace

T.I.G

Edited June 7, 2010 by The Infidel Guy

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Not to mention the protests from Israeli citizens itself.....

Funny you should mention that:

A poll of Israel’s Jewish population by the daily Maariv from June 2 found that about 95% of respondents agreed it was necessary to stop the vessel. Many Israelis are critical of the handling of the raid, but not of the decision to stop the aid ships or the Gaza blockade policy in general.

Really?

Israel knew of this flotilla before it even left port. Why did the Israeli Govt not request to send someone to inspect the ships then, identify they were carrying legitimate aid, and give the okay for the flotilla to make the journey?

Why, if their intelligence was so good that they knew terrorists and weapons were on board, do we not see the evidence of those things?

If they knew there were no terrorists or weapons were on board, or if they had no intelligence of that, then why did they carry out this (illegal) occupation of the ships?

There is a huge failure on Israel's part in every aspect of this situation, and there is no covering that up or justifying it.

Are you stating that the seizure of ships, in international waters btw, carrying legitimate humanitarian aid is justifiable by way of 'defending the Nation'?

If so, then please provide any evidence the Nation of Israel was in any way at threat from this flotilla.

You can't possibly be serious. I have already addressed each and every one of those points, many of them in this very thread.

The bloackade was used to starve the Palestinian people of aid...as stated the Israeli Governmental Advisor is on record as saying "to put them on a diet".

You actually are. You posted evidence that "terrorists" were on board? Wow id like to see that please....

Weapons? What you talking about the knives, poles and chairs? Give me a break this has been covered on here ad-infinitum and debunked.

Your story is crumbling by the day like dry bread.

Peace

T.I.G

And, again, I have already responded to these points. You ask for proof, I provide it, you ignore it and then ask for it yet again.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Pseudo Intellectual

[Moon Monkey]

Please post your evidence for the returning activists who state that the shooting started once the IDF were on board. International Law stipulates that because it was a Turkish Vessel that no other investigation can take place other than from Turkish authorities. Thats the law.....

4 times in the head

once in the chest

19 yr old U.S Citizen

Come on....use some intellect will you.....thats an execution....it takes 4 bullets to the head and once in the chest for someone to be "disarmed".....Oh boy this conversation is getting better by the day.....

Im really eager to see Leonardo's questions answered...if you can....

Peace

T.I.G

I already have, The Times article that ran yesterday...if you hadn't started so many different threads you would be able to find it much easier as everything would be in one place.

If no other investigation can take place other than a Turkish one why the UN call for a joint investigation and why decry that Israel isn't interested in it. You need to read up on the ATK (amongst other things) before you start talking about executions.

You still haven't answered why the activists were swarming the deck brandishing iron bars under a hail of bullets.

As for Leonardos questions, I don't see anything there that hasn't been answered many times before (why were they checking the boat, did they know there were terrorists on board etc.) but if he can't be bothered reading through all the threads (and I don't blame him) then I will clear anything up for him that he is struggling with.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[Leonardo]

You still haven't answered why the activists were swarming the deck brandishing iron bars under a hail of bullets.

Fear and anger.

Yes, the activists were (justifiably) angry the IDF would take aggressive, and deadly, military action against them in international waters.

Tensions and emotions were obviously running high.

These are situations that Armed Forces are meant to be trained to deal with using non-lethal force where possible. It seems the IDF never gave those methods any option, but simply opted for a US-style 'shock and awe' operation.

It was a signficant failure on the part of the IDF to let the situation escalate, and it is rank apologetics to suggest the 'blame' is the activists.

None of my questions have been answered, Moon Monkey, they have only been 'excused' by the apologists.

Where is the justification for the seizure of those vessels in international waters?

PI,

You can't possibly be serious. I have already addressed each and every one of those points, many of them in this very thread.

If by 'addressing those points' you mean admit there has been no evidence that justifies the actions of the IDF, then I agree, you have 'addressed those points'.

None of the 'justification' you have provided is valid to warrant such action as was taken by the IDF in seizing those vessels in international waters.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Leonardo

[Pseudo Intellectual]

"Fear and anger" made innocent peace activists run toward the Israelis firing at them?

Edited June 7, 2010 by Pseudo Intellectual

[Moon Monkey]

"Fear and anger" made innocent peace activists run toward the Israelis firing at them?

I read it too ... and still don't believe he isn't laughing his head off at his keyboard. For a split-second when Leo joined the debate I thought we might have a serious discussion. Just for a split-econd.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[Leonardo]

"Fear and anger" made innocent peace activists run toward the Israelis firing at them?

I read it too ... and still don't believe he isn't laughing his head off at his keyboard. For a split-second when Leo joined the debate I thought we might have a serious discussion. Just for a split-econd.

So, neither of you are prepared to accept that either of those emotions played a role in the response of the activists to the force used by the IDF against them, but would rather make ad-homs in an attempt to defend your entrenched positions?

If that is the only response you can make, it seems the debate is already over.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Leonardo

[keithisco]

I read it too ... and still don't believe he isn't laughing his head off at his keyboard. For a split-second when Leo joined the debate I thought we might have a serious discussion. Just for a split-econd.

You are looking down the barrel of a gun - you are unarmed except for a wooden stick, you have nowhere to run to in time, you have just seen people shot multiple times and murdered.... just what do you do??? The only thing left to you - in desperation you try to attack the murderer and hope his weapon jams.

Leonardo makes a good and valid point. it is nothing to laugh at.

[Rosewin]

Israel knew of this flotilla before it even left port.

...

If so, then please provide any evidence the Nation of Israel was in any way at threat from this flotilla.

One of the earlier reports from Israel seems to hint at them sabotaging the ships in some way before they even left port.

As far as the evidence that the flotilla was indeed a threat to Israel, here it is.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rosewin

[ExpandMyMind]

Funny you should mention that

TA: Thousands protest Gaza blockade

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177555

[Moon Monkey]

So, neither of you are prepared to accept that either of those emotions played a role in the response of the activists to the force used by the IDF against them, but would rather make ad-homs in an attempt to defend your entrenched positions?

If that is the only response you can make, it seems the debate is already over.

You are looking down the barrel of a gun - you are unarmed except for a wooden stick, you have nowhere to run to in time, you have just seen people shot multiple times and murdered.... just what do you do??? The only thing left to you - in desperation you try to attack the murderer and hope his weapon jams.

Leonardo makes a good and valid point. it is nothing to laugh at.

Errm...You have already stated that the firing started before the commandos abseiled down, so you get off the top deck where the firing is coming from and go down below where the other 500+ activists who weren't intent on trouble were. Not pick up a chair and chase out onto the top deck where the murdering commandos are and where the hovering gunship is raining down fire. Hope his weapon jams ....really ? Is that the best you can come up with ?

No one said the episode is something to laugh at but some of your reasoning is .....'I raced onto the top deck and attacked the firing commandos under helicopter gunfire through fear and I hoped his weapon/the weapons would jam'. Read that out loud to yourselves a couple of times.

[Rosewin]

Armchair generalship seem to be in full vogue here but it would make sense that there would already be people on top deck to begin with.

As far as Israelis coming down already firing, this is also something that a witness on a Greek vessel saw but he said they were firing tear gas canisters and rubber bullets, non-lethal rounds. Perhaps this occurred on the Marmara too but has yet to be clarified. Attempting to disarm pirates and protect your cargo if you thought they were using just non-lethal rounds then that is perhaps something some would do. It does seem that in any witness account thus far that mentions live rounds does so in a manner that indicates they were shocked or surprised as if they were not expecting that.

If we are to believe the IDF account some of the activists fought off perpetrators attempts to board the vessel by IDF boats so that is when a helicopter was used. This would indicate some intention of restraint on part of the IDF which will go a long way in defense of the Israelis at this point, which they need plenty of, but none of the witnesses thus far have mentioned any sea battle of this nature.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rosewin