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Ryinrea

Gaza flotilla attack: Autopsies

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DieChecker

But Hamas are civilians. All terrorist groups trawl the civilian population for fresh, uncorrupted minds to turn into suicidal Islamist maniacs. The PLO, Hezbollah, Fatah and certainly Hamas do this with propoganda against Israel and even the United States. When the situation turns against them, they use the civilians and aid agencies as sheilds so that when the Israelis blow them into next week, they can claim that the Israelis massacred innocent civilians and everyone believes them.

Israel has stepped up to the challenge every time their nation was threatened. How have they been in existance since 1948? If they didn't over react, would they be still here?

I'm not promoting Hamas, I disdain them too. I simply wonder if Isreal has to be so reactive? It certainly does not seem to be working. If anything it is a bio-feedback type loop where each side keeps seeking Revenge.

So, you feel that Israel is justified no matter what they do? If they carpet bomb 200,000 people is that too much? If they kill 10,000 using air-fuel bombs is that too much? If they kill 10 people outside Israel by assassination, is that going too far?

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MichaelW

But my point is, does anyone condemn Hamas for crimes against Israel? No. The Israeli government is only doing what it feels necessary in order to protect its people and its sovereignity. They are not a raving bunch of Zionist lunatics hellbent on creating a new world order like some people here seem to claim. Israel and Hamas indeed are locked in a never ending loop of vengance, but note it is always the latter that fires the first shot. Israel on retaliates in self defence or if it feels threatened by the actions of others.

So, to answer your question, yes, I feel Israel is justified, not matter what it does. Because it doesn't take much to degenerate from condemnation to anti-Semitism.

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Pseudo Intellectual
Yet, there are Israelis wanted for war crimes for using human shields.

Wanted by whom?

Also when personnel from the Red Cross or the UN tell us through their reports that these things are true and Israel denies them, what does that say? You have a government that murders many civilians telling us that the folks from these charities and the UN are lying.

The UN lying about Israel? That's unpossible!

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Moon Monkey

Bawawawa, I am neutral in this, but I think the U.N is much better, because they actually care about laws that Israel broke in the first place. The Gold stone report for example was done by a Jew who tried to soften the crimes in the report, and it still came out that Israel has committed war crimes, and so did Hamas.

Is that a joke ? You still maintain that the israelis targetted that UN school in the face of UN and PHRC reports and numerous palestinian eyewitness accounts.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=183367&pid=3441362&st=30entry3441362

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Rosewin

But my point is, does anyone condemn Hamas for crimes against Israel? No. The Israeli government is only doing what it feels necessary in order to protect its people and its sovereignity. They are not a raving bunch of Zionist lunatics hellbent on creating a new world order like some people here seem to claim. Israel and Hamas indeed are locked in a never ending loop of vengance, but note it is always the latter that fires the first shot. Israel on retaliates in self defence or if it feels threatened by the actions of others.

So, to answer your question, yes, I feel Israel is justified, not matter what it does. Because it doesn't take much to degenerate from condemnation to anti-Semitism.

Israel is the one doing more harm to a civilian population, period. Once sanctions are in place, once the Israeli people change regimes, once they allow a two-state solution, once they help in the international effort to capture any war criminals on Israeli soil and show the world they will not harbor war criminals, then we can proceed and go after those in a sovereign Palestine whose government will help capture any war criminals within their territory as well, such as those in Hamas who are also wanted for war crimes for their condemnable actions.

None of you all are going to get away with this, not the Israelis who continued these policies, not Hamas, and this 'never ending loop of vengeance' you are so willing to take sides on but not offer any solutions is going to be broken by us, the rest of the world, by the UN which represents us.

The big picture that everyone is seeing which only a few fail to see is that the truly worst monsters of this world need to be taken out before we go after those whose crimes have caused less damage to humanity.

Now the UN works slow but Israel is either going to toss out their government and elect one that complies with all the terms stated above or they will be sanctioned over and over, worse than Iraq ever was under Saddam, for in Israel there are many Sadamms, and just like he thought justice would never catch up to him, it has and it will to those wanted for war crimes that are currently hiding in Israel.

And then once the threat of a nuclear Israel is remove from this world, the UN can achieve a long lasting peace in the region, and if need be the UN can even provide protection to insure that Israel and her people prosper under a two-state solution. The tide changes slow but it changes and it is up to the people of Israel to change before it sweeps them over and have it forced on them for they will eventually have to learn to take their place among the other civilized nations of this world.

While everyone is focused on the flotilla in the background the globalist continue to prepare for a nuclear-free Middle East region. They had met within the month before this incident. Obama has finally reversed his position and now has joined the other nations demanding a nuclear-free Middle East region. That is right, the world is changing, a nuclear-armed Israel is a threat to world peace as much as any other nation in that conflict ridden reason would be.

Edited by Rosewin

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Rosewin

**** I never thought I would support globalization or the UN to this degree but I can certainly see how any nukes in the Middle East are a threat to the whole world period. There is good cause for concern that that region could be the catalyst for an even greater conflict involving others from outside that region. We need a global government, a UN with more teeth, which can act faster to stabilize the Middle East and other problem spots around the globe without the bureaucratic and diplomatic wrangling that occurs today. I guess today another supporter of globalization is born. Let us begin by disarming Israel.

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

**** I never thought I would support globalization or the UN to this degree but I can certainly see how any nukes in the Middle East are a threat to the whole world period. There is good cause for concern that that region could be the catalyst for an even greater conflict involving others from outside that region. We need a global government, a UN with more teeth, which can act faster to stabilize the Middle East and other problem spots around the globe without the bureaucratic and diplomatic wrangling that occurs today. I guess today another supporter of globalization is born. Let us begin by disarming Israel.

Spoken like a true hippie.

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susieice

Spoken like a true hippie.

Spoken like someone I want to hear went over there when $%#T hit the fan.

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Agent X

But my point is, does anyone condemn Hamas for crimes against Israel? No. The Israeli government is only doing what it feels necessary in order to protect its people and its sovereignity. They are not a raving bunch of Zionist lunatics hellbent on creating a new world order like some people here seem to claim. Israel and Hamas indeed are locked in a never ending loop of vengance, but note it is always the latter that fires the first shot. Israel on retaliates in self defence or if it feels threatened by the actions of others.

So, to answer your question, yes, I feel Israel is justified, not matter what it does. Because it doesn't take much to degenerate from condemnation to anti-Semitism.

No, nobody condemns Hamas for their crimes against Israel. But I've been told it's simply because they are not a sovereign country and therefore can not be accused of crimes. But, I have no clue how true that is.

It's only important when Israel tries to defend itself. Then israel must be held to higher standards of morality because they're the good guys.

:blink:

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Agent X

Israel is the one doing more harm to a civilian population, period. Once sanctions are in place, once the Israeli people change regimes, once they allow a two-state solution, once they help in the international effort to capture any war criminals on Israeli soil and show the world they will not harbor war criminals, then we can proceed and go after those in a sovereign Palestine whose government will help capture any war criminals within their territory as well, such as those in Hamas who are also wanted for war crimes for their condemnable actions.

None of you all are going to get away with this, not the Israelis who continued these policies, not Hamas, and this 'never ending loop of vengeance' you are so willing to take sides on but not offer any solutions is going to be broken by us, the rest of the world, by the UN which represents us.

The big picture that everyone is seeing which only a few fail to see is that the truly worst monsters of this world need to be taken out before we go after those whose crimes have caused less damage to humanity.

Now the UN works slow but Israel is either going to toss out their government and elect one that complies with all the terms stated above or they will be sanctioned over and over, worse than Iraq ever was under Saddam, for in Israel there are many Sadamms, and just like he thought justice would never catch up to him, it has and it will to those wanted for war crimes that are currently hiding in Israel.

And then once the threat of a nuclear Israel is remove from this world, the UN can achieve a long lasting peace in the region, and if need be the UN can even provide protection to insure that Israel and her people prosper under a two-state solution. The tide changes slow but it changes and it is up to the people of Israel to change before it sweeps them over and have it forced on them for they will eventually have to learn to take their place among the other civilized nations of this world.

While everyone is focused on the flotilla in the background the globalist continue to prepare for a nuclear-free Middle East region. They had met within the month before this incident. Obama has finally reversed his position and now has joined the other nations demanding a nuclear-free Middle East region. That is right, the world is changing, a nuclear-armed Israel is a threat to world peace as much as any other nation in that conflict ridden reason would be.

Israel would never have to do these kinds of things....

IF THEIR CIVILIAN POPULATION WERE NOT UNDER ATTACK FROM SUICIDE BOMBERS AND ROCKETS!

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Pseudo Intellectual

Spoken like someone I want to hear went over there when $%#T hit the fan.

I'm not the one advocating genocide, be it intentionally or otherwise. "Disarm Israel"... Weren't 6 million disarmed Jewish Holocaust victims enough? Guess not.

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Agent X

Nope, obviously some people believe that Jews are no different than lawyers.

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susieice

No, nobody condemns Hamas for their crimes against Israel. But I've been told it's simply because they are not a sovereign country and therefore can not be accused of crimes. But, I have no clue how true that is.

It's only important when Israel tries to defend itself. Then israel must be held to higher standards of morality because they're the good guys.

:blink:

Aren't we here in the US held to such standards because we're supposed to be the good guys. We'd never hear the end of it if we did something like this. Our soldiers would be court-martialed for treating civilians like this. And God forbid when we hit some civilians in an attack. Everyone condemns terrorists actions no matter what group they are.

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susieice
Agent X

I don't know, but I don't think so.

For example, people complained about Guantanamo but I don't recall if anybody ever tried to break the blockade to get aid to the prisoners. Or to antagonize America over it like they're doing to Israel.

Edited by Agent X

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Moon Monkey

I don't remember any outcry over Turkey conducting independent autopsies, surely that would be a large part of any investigation.

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susieice

I don't know, but I don't think so.

For example, people complained about Guantanamo but I don't recall if anybody ever tried to break the blockade to get aid to the prisoners. Or to antagonize America over it like they're doing to Israel.

America complained about Guantanamo and eventually it was shut down. Why do you think GWB went there? Then this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5941079.ece

I don't know if that's such a good idea to lift it as it protects our southern borders and the Cuban people are not in anywhere near the same condition as the Palestinians, even after 50 years. Reports say Obama is considering lifting it now.

http://www.upi.com/news/issueoftheday/2009/04/08/Obama-ready-to-end-Cuba-embargo/UPI-93491239207960/

Edited by susieice

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susieice

I'm not the one advocating genocide, be it intentionally or otherwise. "Disarm Israel"... Weren't 6 million disarmed Jewish Holocaust victims enough? Guess not.

Who is saying we should disarm Israel? What would allowing clothing, housing, food, baby supplies etc. do to Israel's security? Really the puny weapons those 40 Turks had on that ship was no threat to Israel's security. Who do you think your kidding? And don't keep using the Holocaust as a reference. That was also a horrible thing that no one is advocating for.

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keithisco

Who is saying we should disarm Israel? What would allowing clothing, housing, food, baby supplies etc. do to Israel's security? Really the puny weapons those 40 Turks had on that ship was no threat to Israel's security. Who do you think your kidding? And don't keep using the Holocaust as a reference. That was also a horrible thing that no one is advocating for.

A lot of these people will always use the Holocaust as a reference, because to them it was only a Jewish Holocaust. They want to claim it for themselves and totally ignore the other groups that were equally targetted because it suits their political purpose.

A holocaust survivor, in the view of the Israeli Govt, is NOT someone who survived any of the concentration camps, but also Jews who happened to be alive at the time in other countries (even if they were living the high life and didnt give a damn about their fellow Jews). I find it disingenuous at the least!!!

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Agent X

Who is saying we should disarm Israel? What would allowing clothing, housing, food, baby supplies etc. do to Israel's security? Really the puny weapons those 40 Turks had on that ship was no threat to Israel's security. Who do you think your kidding? And don't keep using the Holocaust as a reference. That was also a horrible thing that no one is advocating for.

Terrorists often smuggle weapons and explosives through that kind of aid. Not just anti-Israel ones either. They do it to have a shield and gullible people only see that the innocent people are harmed and wrongly blame the power that fights back against this tactic because all they want to see are the people that are harmed. They don't care that the terrorists did this on purpose.

And that creates a whole slew of problems. Because really, we can't really allow the terrorists to have this kind of a shield. Because then they can do what ever they want and never be taken to task for their crimes against humanity. Which also means that in the long run they would do a lot of damage to any society they're against and will eventually destabilize things.

And that's the sad thing about these kind of situations.

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susieice

Terrorists often smuggle weapons and explosives through that kind of aid. Not just anti-Israel ones either. They do it to have a shield and gullible people only see that the innocent people are harmed and wrongly blame the power that fights back against this tactic because all they want to see are the people that are harmed. They don't care that the terrorists did this on purpose.

And that creates a whole slew of problems. Because really, we can't really allow the terrorists to have this kind of a shield. Because then they can do what ever they want and never be taken to task for their crimes against humanity. Which also means that in the long run they would do a lot of damage to any society they're against and will eventually destabilize things.

And that's the sad thing about these kind of situations.

The Taliban doesn't? I guess no one hid behind civilians in Iraq. We still don't deny those people the right to a life. We'd never get away with it here or abroad. Vietnam was another one where civilians were used as shields and look what happened there when our soldiers were caught.

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Agent X

So why should terrorists be allowed to have a shield? Do you want to allow them to kill off everyone they don't want to live?

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susieice

So why should terrorists be allowed to have a shield? Do you want to allow them to kill off everyone they don't want to live?

Ij'm talking about civilians and you know it.

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ninjadude

How many people can Israel kill before the US cares? Apparently about 6 million.

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