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Moon Monkey

Turkish PM to sail to Gaza

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MARAB0D

Irregular soldiers are not defined as civilians but combatants.

Check Wiki!

Meanwhile there is hardly such International Law which protects specifically Gaza civilians, as Gaza is not a state and not a signatory to any Geneva Conventions. "

The exceptions are: "Nationals of a State which is not bound by the [Fourth Geneva] Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are." (GCIV Article 4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatant

Also

"If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action".

For them to become seen as civilians, they need to stop castrating the kidnapped Israeli soldiers, but treat them as POWs, as well as to stop launching the missiles and shooting at checkpoints.

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Rosewin

Palestine civilians are not classed as irregulars or combatants but as civilians.

Now the Hamas fighters are considered irregulars and thus the Geneva convention does not apply to them. Their police force in Gaza on the other hand are considered civilians.

Civilians are always protected and it is a war crime to target them. This is why Israel has several war criminals they are harboring because they have done this but refuse to recognize they have committed crimes against humanity.

edit: I am actually uncertain as to the actual status of the Hamas military wing, whether regular or irregular they are definitely combatant, but their police are protected as civilians. Also I do not think either Israel or Hamas are signatories of the Geneva Convention but those war criminals they harbor will be tried for violating it.

Edited by Rosewin

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keithisco

Keith, the terrorists are usually all civilians, even Osama ben Laden. Civilians are those who are not combatants, and the combatants are those who wear camouflaged combat uniform and are armed; even a soldier in a daily uniform is not a combatant, but rather a civilian too - say Salvation Army guys, they also wear military uniform, or the cops. It is completely outside of our expertise area, to advise Israeli government how to handle Gaza strip, we should not also advise the Gaza civilians how it is better to launch their daily Kassams, it is simply not our business. Let them sort their affairs without anyone interfering. There is a difference between holding political views different from those of Jewish politicians, and physically interfering into what these politicians are doing in their sovereign country. If you feel yourself a che gevara, then no need to talk at all, just go there, join Hamas and shoot. The impression is that in your own country everything is just perfect, and you do not have any reason to disagree with anything at all, so you divert your emotions on another country and its problems. If so then you sure need to learn Arabic, accept Islam and grow a beard, why wasting time instead of doing something productive?

So now I am an undercover Muslim??? I am an atheist so probably the first against the wall in an Islamic fundamentalist Nation.

I have not been talking about my country and it is a simple diversion tactic to suggest I have been.

You may not feel outraged at indiscriminate slaughter of civilians but I do, wherever it occurs in the world (yes, also in my country f it happens)

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Moon Monkey

Not my figure, I posted the links to the figure, they are beyond dispute.

In Bold: That sentence makes no sense at all.

You have seen the list of "banned" articles (banned by Israel) posted here - you have no defence for that list - it is designed precisely to prevent Gaza from functioning in any sense of the word.

You have seen the figures for severe malnourishment in Gaza - you do not dispute them.

Your claims that everything is rosy in Gaza is so distorted as to be laughable - except of course, its not!!

Collective punishment of a civilian population is illegal by all International Laws. As soon as hamas won the democratic election in Gaza, Israel mobilised to set up the blockade and to control the population.

I did predict to myself that you would ignore the mathematical logic of the 25 % figure (I don't care who's it is, I said 'your figure' as I was quoting you) and ramble off on one. So the gazans get at best 25 % of aid supplied allowed through and they are also receiving 25 % of goods compared with pre-blockade levels...that means that they are being sent more aid today than total goods pre-blockade.

It also begs another question. Israel sends approx. 15,000 tonnes a week through and therefore 'at best' there are 45,000 tonnes not getting through. Now it is exactly 3 years, or 156 weeks since the Israeli/Egyptian blockade started so any ideas where the 7+ million tonnes of non-allowed-through aid is ?

I linked the UN health of populations in the middle east end of 2008 report in this forum the other day, it seems you missed it the palestinians did very well considering they had been under blockade for 18 months.

I saw the list of banned items, I also saw the list of not banned items...seemed quite a reasonable selection that 4/5th of the worlds population would be very happy with.

Do you deny no one is starving, the markets are full, water runs, the air-conditioners still work, the internet is working, the mobile phone network is fine, the cars still go, they still have more medical resources than most of the arab world and the rockets still fly ?

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Rosewin

I did predict to myself that you would ignore the mathematical logic of the 25 % figure (I don't care who's it is, I said 'your figure' as I was quoting you) and ramble off on one. So the gazans get at best 25 % of aid supplied allowed through and they are also receiving 25 % of goods compared with pre-blockade levels...that means that they are being sent more aid today than total goods pre-blockade.

It also begs another question. Israel sends approx. 15,000 tonnes a week through and therefore 'at best' there are 45,000 tonnes not getting through. Now it is exactly 3 years, or 156 weeks since the Israeli/Egyptian blockade started so any ideas where the 7+ million tonnes of non-allowed-through aid is ?

I linked the UN health of populations in the middle east end of 2008 report in this forum the other day, it seems you missed it the palestinians did very well considering they had been under blockade for 18 months.

I saw the list of banned items, I also saw the list of not banned items...seemed quite a reasonable selection that 4/5th of the worlds population would be very happy with.

Do you deny no one is starving, the markets are full, water runs, the air-conditioners still work, the internet is working, the mobile phone network is fine, the cars still go, they still have more medical resources than most of the arab world and the rockets still fly ?

Quit trying to defend the blockade because by doing so you are defending the war criminals who maintain it. It is illegal period.

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said on Saturday Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and should be lifted, and reiterated calls for an investigation into Israel's raid on aid supply ships this week.

"International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians," Pillay said. (Reuters)

http://tinyurl.com/37s2oaq

Edited by Rosewin

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Moon Monkey

Quit trying to defend the blockade because by doing so you are defending the war criminals who maintain it. It is illegal period.

http://tinyurl.com/37s2oaq

Not defending it, putting it in context as the israeli governments only option to protect their citizens from an islamic fundamentalist offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood who are bent on the total destruction of Israel.

But hey lift the blockade, however accept the full scale conventional war that will erupt once Hamas feel Iran and Syria have armed them enough to really take Israel on and don't come bleating about civilian casulties and proportional responses. When you get your way and this does happen Israel will evacuate their civilians out of the war zone, as they did in 2006 against Hezbollah, and Hamas will, as usual, wait until things get bad and make sure enough of their civilians die that people like you will scream to get them out of trouble. And then we will start all over again.

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Rosewin
the israeli governments only option to protect their citizens from an islamic fundamentalist offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood who are bent on the total destruction of Israel.

Outdated tribal thinking.

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Moon Monkey

Outdated tribal thinking.

God yes, even the egyptians are locking them up.

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susieice

i didnt paraphrase anything i copied and pasted.

and it is questionable if turkey really is neutral in this or not.

yes the link says what it says. it says that isreal has the right to inspect the cargo fro cantriband. it states isreal cannot remove anything from the cargo but the cantriband. it says that isreal must provide transport for the rest of it. they offered that.

The principle of free passage, as set forth in this clause, means that relief consignments for the population of an occupied territory must be allowed to pass through the blockade; they cannot under any circumstances be declared war contraband or be seized as such by those enforcing the blockade.

The obligation to authorize the free passage of relief consignments is accompanied by the obligation to guarantee their protection. It will not be enough merely to lift the blockade and refrain from attacking or confiscating the goods. More than that will be required: all the States concerned must respect the consignments and protect them when they are exposed to danger through military operations.323] The Power granting free passage will also have the right to be reasonably satisfied through the Protecting Power that the consignments in question are to be used for the relief of the needy population and not for the benefit of the Occupying Power. Belligerents will obviously be unwilling to grant the goods free passage -- and the donors unwilling to make their contribution -- unless they are certain that the relief supplies are distributed in the way arranged, and only to those persons for whom they were intended. That is a sine qua non of any relief action.

This is the rest of what you copied and pasted. Sorry it jumbled. Yes, Israel had the right to search and remove anything that could be considered a weapon. That is in the part you copied. The question is did they have the right to use military force in international water or was it against the Geneva Convention and the answer lies within. This is from the International Red Cross Website regarding the Geneva Convention and this is what it says. Since Turkey was an ally of Israel, could they be considered neutral.

Edited by susieice

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MARAB0D

So now I am an undercover Muslim??? I am an atheist so probably the first against the wall in an Islamic fundamentalist Nation.

I have not been talking about my country and it is a simple diversion tactic to suggest I have been.

You may not feel outraged at indiscriminate slaughter of civilians but I do, wherever it occurs in the world (yes, also in my country f it happens)

You are not really an undercover Muslim, as you are agitating for their cause in a pretty open fashion, unless by "undercover" you mean "uncircumcised". And yes, of course I am not outraged anyhow about those civilians you mentioned. I usually read the newspapers without any extra emotions, just as an information source. Now I know that there are in this world some mentally immature people, who think they can force-violate the national borders and not be killed. If you think this is a situation, unique for Israel, you can try doing the same with, say, Mexican border - or with the Turkish one.

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Rosewin

So Marabod if a group tried to sneak into N Korea to try and take food to the civilians within and got caught would you take the side of N Korea if N Korea killed them?

Isn't it only countries like N Korea which consider toys and musical instruments as contraband? Wait I guess Israel is now one too but they have good cause because those damn Palestinian bards with their musical instruments that are capable of casting party buffs to those Palestinian warrior classes making them more effective.

Edited by Rosewin

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MARAB0D

So Marabod if a group tried to sneak into N Korea to try and take food to the civilians within and got caught would you take the side of N Korea if N Korea killed them?

Isn't it only countries like N Korea which consider toys and musical instruments as contraband? Wait I guess Israel is now one too but they have good cause because those damn Palestinian bards with their musical instruments that are capable of casting party buffs to those Palestinian warrior classes making them more effective.

Most certainly, without a shadow of any doubts, I would take the side of the country, protecting its national borders. Specially when in the case like you describe, we deal with the loonies, brainwashed by the propaganda, hostile to the country. No one in this world can know, are the N Koreans starving or not, as there is no transparency about this country's events. Thus all what is said about it is a product of someone's fantasy. It is the same as when in 1920s American newspapers were publishing the photos of rogue men with the knives between their teeth, and calling them "Bolshevik leaders".

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Xiphos

*snip genocidal statements*

Ban me, so be it.

Edited by Paranormalcy

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Rosewin

I hope your language is not bannable but if not a joke and if that is how you really feel it is highly offensive.

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MARAB0D

*snip genocidal statements*

Ban me, so be it.

He did not have the chance - we lost tens of millions lives to stop him.

Edited by Paranormalcy

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Xiphos

I hope your language is not bannable but if not a joke and if that is how you really feel it is highly offensive.

I'll tell you what's offensive. Killing innocents and twisting the truth.

Edited by Xiphos

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Pseudo Intellectual

*snip genocidal statements*

Ban me, so be it.

I would laugh at the irony of your post if I didn't find it so despicable.

Edited by Paranormalcy

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Paranormalcy

Ban me, so be it.

It be so. Good riddance.

Edited by Paranormalcy

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Rosewin

OK Mara, I can see that you would lend N Korea support if they also murdered activist trying to enter their country. Your whole point being no one should enter another country without that countries permission.

Well you do realize the flotilla incident is a gray area? Yes, if Israel has a blockade they have the right to stop ships who are trying to break it even in international waters. The legality of the blockade though is not recognized by the UN. Now here is the sticky part, even if Israel had this right it does not change the fact that they entered Turkish territory by stepping onto that boat in international waters. So here we have Israel sendings its soldiers to enter another country without permission...yet you support that.

Edited by Rosewin

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keithisco

It be so. Good riddance.

"Good Riddance" indeed!!!angry.gif That kind of hateful and inciteful comment is just not welcome anywhere any more. Whilst this was always going to be a "difficult" topic to discuss without Godwinism being raised, for the most part (apart from expected comments from all sides in the debate) I am impressed in the main by the fact that it has not gone down the route it could have.thumbsup.gif

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Paranormalcy

It will NOT go down that route, if it takes closing the thread or suspending people who don't seem to know how to behave like civilized humans in 2010.

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NorthernBallast

I'm pretty sure this isn't going to end very well.

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MARAB0D

It be so. Good riddance.

Thank you very much!

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MARAB0D

OK Mara, I can see that you would lend N Korea support if they also murdered activist trying to enter their country. Your whole point being no one should enter another country without that countries permission.

Well you do realize the flotilla incident is a gray area? Yes, if Israel has a blockade they have the right to stop ships who are trying to break it even in international waters. The legality of the blockade though is not recognized by the UN. Now here is the sticky part, even if Israel had this right it does not change the fact that they entered Turkish territory by stepping onto that boat in international waters. So here we have Israel sendings its soldiers to enter another country without permission...yet you support that.

No, Rosewin, for me Flotilla accident is not a grey area at all! It is an outright provocation, which can be placed in one row with Iraqi nuclear weapons, Polish attack on German radio station and the murder of Arch-Duke Franz-Ferdinand. Or with N Korean sinking of the Cheonan corvette. Moreover, I am pretty sure, that this Flotilla accident is a response of anti-western secret services to the recent Cheonan story. It translates as "try attacking OUR N Korea, and we would attack YOUR Israel". Israel is a geopolitical counterpart of N Korea - an illegal nuclear state in intensive tensions with its neighbours... Simple!

What you need is only to concentrate on the key points, not of the secondary issues!

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MARAB0D

Rosewin, just try to follow the reasoning, which exercises some logic (as the emotions do not have any logic in them!).

the flotilla guys were killed - TRUE. What were they killed for? This offers number of choices:

1) They were killed for them trying to help poor Gaza residents

2) They were killed for them trying to cross a national border illegally

3) They were killed for them threatening the Israeli commandos

Just think on your "yes" and "no" for each of the above options!

If I lost a gold ring in my house, would it be adequate for me to take an axe and go search the neighbour's house? And what would the cops think about me and my axe if in process my neighbour calls them? Can I be killed for just searching for my own gold ring? many questions are here...

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