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Moon Monkey

Turkish PM to sail to Gaza

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The Silver Thong

I'll tell you what's offensive. Killing innocents and twisting the truth.

As to what side of the argument are you on? It's unclear as both are guilty.

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Paranormalcy

Sadly, Xiphos decided the forum was too multicultural for him and will no longer be participating in discussions here - he gives his best, please continue without him.

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chaoszerg

Sadly, Xiphos decided the forum was too multicultural for him and will no longer be participating in discussions here - he gives his best, please continue without him.

I love the he gives his best bit. lol

As to what side of the argument are you on? It's unclear as both are guilty.

I agree both sides are as bad as each other at times.

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Rosewin

No, Rosewin, for me Flotilla accident is not a grey area at all! It is an outright provocation, which can be placed in one row with Iraqi nuclear weapons, Polish attack on German radio station and the murder of Arch-Duke Franz-Ferdinand. Or with N Korean sinking of the Cheonan corvette. Moreover, I am pretty sure, that this Flotilla accident is a response of anti-western secret services to the recent Cheonan story. It translates as "try attacking OUR N Korea, and we would attack YOUR Israel". Israel is a geopolitical counterpart of N Korea - an illegal nuclear state in intensive tensions with its neighbours... Simple!

What you need is only to concentrate on the key points, not of the secondary issues!

You might not see it as a gray area but it is.

Nice comparison of Israel to N Korea and I will keep my eyes open for their symbiotic relationship if that is what it could be described as. Still it is doubtful that anti-Western secret services connected to Korea were behind the flotilla. They have been running boats to try and break the blockade for a few years now. This incident has two base reasons and many other long contended political reasons. The two base reasons were that this time the aid ship planned to enter Gaza and not be redirected to Ashod which would allow Israel to dip their fingers in the candy jar taking out the flavors they wish to deny Gaza and the other reasons is Israel choosing to send marines to what Israel itself described as a planned police action.

I do think this particular boat did plan to raise awareness to Gaza but it is doubtful they wanted to die. Turkey as far as we know has no terrorist training camps.

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Moon Monkey

At best Israel only ever allows 25% of the aid sent to get through, the rest it keeps for itself. For your information I never use "OMFG" in ANY debate - it is childish, irrelevant, and shows a complete lack of debating etiquette. Clearly not something that concerns you however.

Not my figure, I posted the links to the figure, they are beyond dispute.

In Bold: That sentence makes no sense at all.

You have seen the list of "banned" articles (banned by Israel) posted here - you have no defence for that list - it is designed precisely to prevent Gaza from functioning in any sense of the word.

You have seen the figures for severe malnourishment in Gaza - you do not dispute them.

Your claims that everything is rosy in Gaza is so distorted as to be laughable - except of course, its not!!

Collective punishment of a civilian population is illegal by all International Laws. As soon as hamas won the democratic election in Gaza, Israel mobilised to set up the blockade and to control the population.

I did predict to myself that you would ignore the mathematical logic of the 25 % figure (I don't care who's it is, I said 'your figure' as I was quoting you) and ramble off on one. So the gazans get at best 25 % of aid supplied allowed through and they are also receiving 25 % of goods compared with pre-blockade levels...that means that they are being sent more aid today than total goods pre-blockade.

It also begs another question. Israel sends approx. 15,000 tonnes a week through and therefore 'at best' there are 45,000 tonnes not getting through. Now it is exactly 3 years, or 156 weeks since the Israeli/Egyptian blockade started so any ideas where the 7+ million tonnes of non-allowed-through aid is ?

I linked the UN health of populations in the middle east end of 2008 report in this forum the other day, it seems you missed it the palestinians did very well considering they had been under blockade for 18 months.

I saw the list of banned items, I also saw the list of not banned items...seemed quite a reasonable selection that 4/5th of the worlds population would be very happy with.

Do you deny no one is starving, the markets are full, water runs, the air-conditioners still work, the internet is working, the mobile phone network is fine, the cars still go, they still have more medical resources than most of the arab world and the rockets still fly ?

On top of this Keith I read in a number of sources today including a World Bank report that the gazans get 80% of their goods via the smuggling tunnels. This would imply that on top of the UN/aid agencies sending them over 100% of their pre-blockade totals (which 'your links' say only 25% gets through, still wondering about those 7+ million tonnes btw) they are actually operating at beyond the 100% mark on their own anyway...if Israel let the other 75% through they would be getting nearly double what they were happily flourishing on pre-blockade.

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Rosewin

On top of this Keith I read in a number of sources today including a World Bank report that the gazans get 80% of their goods via the smuggling tunnels. This would imply that on top of the UN/aid agencies sending them over 100% of their pre-blockade totals (which 'your links' say only 25% gets through, still wondering about those 7+ million tonnes btw) they are actually operating at beyond the 100% mark on their own anyway...if Israel let the other 75% through they would be getting nearly double what they were happily flourishing on pre-blockade.

The mathematics of hate add up to denials and dismissals on the part of Israel. Everyone knows that is pure tripe. The UN, the Red Cross, other aid agencies all state otherwise. It is not a difficult choice in making on who to believe, the regime of hate, or the charities.

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Moon Monkey

The mathematics of hate add up to denials and dismissals on the part of Israel. Everyone knows that is pure tripe. The UN, the Red Cross, other aid agencies all state otherwise. It is not a difficult choice in making on who to believe, the regime of hate, or the charities.

Keith introduced the figures and none of the figures in this thread come from israeli sources (I have to be careful with you about). If it is 'tripe' it should be an easy matter for you to show so.

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Rosewin

Keith introduced the figures and none of the figures in this thread come from israeli sources (I have to be careful with you about). If it is 'tripe' it should be an easy matter for you to show so.

Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.

But the UN says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10195838.stm

Israel is just not letting the aid through even if it is there. The UN says it is less than a quarter of what is needed. Sources have been amply provided in various threads for this. If you have any sources to back up your claim you are free to provide them.

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danielost

The mathematics of hate add up to denials and dismissals on the part of Israel. Everyone knows that is pure tripe. The UN, the Red Cross, other aid agencies all state otherwise. It is not a difficult choice in making on who to believe, the regime of hate, or the charities.

the UN observers in Lebanon, were laughing as the rockets from there flew over into Israel, the UN introduces a new sanctions against Israel or condemns them for this or that reason with almost everything else they do. it doesn't get very far because the USA stops it.

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Rosewin

Well Israel is going to end up like the next Serbia if they keep on ignoring the UN. The UN is slow but it eventually gets the task done if it sets out to do so, and it has.

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danielost

Well Israel is going to end up like the next Serbia if they keep on ignoring the UN. The UN is slow but it eventually gets the task done if it sets out to do so, and it has.

and the usa will be there to stop the un. and once more it is coming out just as it said it would in the bible.

Edited by danielost

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Moon Monkey

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10195838.stm

Israel is just not letting the aid through even if it is there. The UN says it is less than a quarter of what is needed. Sources have been amply provided in various threads for this. If you have any sources to back up your claim you are free to provide them.

What are you on about ? I have accepted the figures given. My claims are purely mathematical a calculator will enable you to confirm them.

I would also like to point you to the 'Hamas not letting aid through' thread.

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Rosewin

What are you on about ? I have accepted the figures given. My claims are purely mathematical a calculator will enable you to confirm them.

I have yet to see any sources provided by you regarding your claim that you, "...read in a number of sources today including a World Bank report that the gazans get 80% of their goods via the smuggling tunnels. This would imply that on top of the UN/aid agencies sending them over 100% of their pre-blockade totals (which 'your links' say only 25% gets through, still wondering about those 7+ million tonnes btw) they are actually operating at beyond the 100% mark on their own anyway...if Israel let the other 75% through they would be getting nearly double what they were happily flourishing on pre-blockade."

Is there really a number of sources that would back up your claim?

I would also like to point you to the 'Hamas not letting aid through' thread.

Is this the thread you refer to? If so we both have discussed that already.

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Papagiorgio

Well Israel is going to end up like the next Serbia if they keep on ignoring the UN. The UN is slow but it eventually gets the task done if it sets out to do so, and it has.

What exactly is the UN going to do? Without the US and British military the UN is pretty much a toothless dog. I highly doubt that the US or Britain would invade Israel.

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danielost

What exactly is the UN going to do? Without the US and British military the UN is pretty much a toothless dog. I highly doubt that the US or Britain would invade Israel.

this is why the un has been trying to impose a tax on the planet.

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Rosewin

What exactly is the UN going to do? Without the US and British military the UN is pretty much a toothless dog. I highly doubt that the US or Britain would invade Israel.

this is why the un has been trying to impose a tax on the planet.

Well in time the UN will have to tame America and the British too. A global government is the best thing but let us not jump that far ahead. The UN requires more supra-states to become more effective. Having to deal with the EU instead of all of her individual members would make things easier. America will just have to become truly that, America, from Canada to Mexico or more.

Edited by Rosewin

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danielost

Well in time the UN will have to tame America and the British too. A global government is the best thing but let us not jump that far ahead. The UN requires more supra-states to become more effective. Having to deal with the EU instead of all of her individual members would make things easier. America will just have to become truly that, America, from Canada to Mexico or more.

and once again the bible seems to have covered this too.

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Papagiorgio

Well in time the UN will have to tame America and the British too. A global government is the best thing but let us not jump that far ahead. The UN requires more supra-states to become more effective. Having to deal with the EU instead of all of her individual members would make things easier. America will just have to become truly that, America, from Canada to Mexico or more.

I don't think I like the idea of being "tamed". I don't think the British would like the idea either.

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MARAB0D

Well in time the UN will have to tame America and the British too. A global government is the best thing but let us not jump that far ahead. The UN requires more supra-states to become more effective. Having to deal with the EU instead of all of her individual members would make things easier. America will just have to become truly that, America, from Canada to Mexico or more.

UN is America, at least on 2/5 (USA and UK), on another 2/5 it is Eurasia (Russia, China) and on 1/5 it is France, a loose cannon. The opinions of all other members are only tolerated, but cannot be enforced. So, who would form this "world government"?

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Moon Monkey

I have yet to see any sources provided by you regarding your claim that you, "...read in a number of sources today including a World Bank report that the gazans get 80% of their goods via the smuggling tunnels. This would imply that on top of the UN/aid agencies sending them over 100% of their pre-blockade totals (which 'your links' say only 25% gets through, still wondering about those 7+ million tonnes btw) they are actually operating at beyond the 100% mark on their own anyway...if Israel let the other 75% through they would be getting nearly double what they were happily flourishing on pre-blockade."

Is there really a number of sources that would back up your claim?

I have yet to see any sources provided by you regarding your claim that you, "...read in a number of sources today including a World Bank report that the gazans get 80% of their goods via the smuggling tunnels. This would imply that on top of the UN/aid agencies sending them over 100% of their pre-blockade totals (which 'your links' say only 25% gets through, still wondering about those 7+ million tonnes btw) they are actually operating at beyond the 100% mark on their own anyway...if Israel let the other 75% through they would be getting nearly double what they were happily flourishing on pre-blockade."

Is there really a number of sources that would back up your claim?

Okey cokey. We will accept the figure of 75% of aid sent that is witheld by Israel as I have not had a good look at that yet (I am still wondering about that 7+ million tonne aid mountain though)

The World Bank report stating that 80% of Gaza supplies are coming through the tunnels (under briefly noted):

World Bank

Unfortunatly that report requires a login however a simple search turns up hundreds of citations, for example:

The guardian

The Jordan Times

Hamas

Within the World Bank reports there are also articles from palestinian economists that this 80% figure is low.

Among the many UN reports stating that current supplies received by Gaza are running at 20% of the pre-blockade level is this one:

UN OCHA OPT

The rest is maths. 'A maximum' 25% of what is sent to Gaza is received by Gaza, Gaza is running at 20% of its pre-blockade supplies so more is being sent to Gaza than was received in total circa 2007. But only 25% gets in, which is only 20% of supplies currently available within Gaza, which means they have more now than they did pre-blockade and would have almost double should the israelis not withold the 75% of aid.

The World Bank also shows an increase in GDP in Gaza over the last 3 years.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Rosewin

Your first source dates that World Bank fact to 2008. You did not factor in that the situation has changed in a year and a half? Regarding the blockade Amnesty international reports the following.

The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

...

Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

Keep in mind this is Amnesty International. If Israel disputed them I would say all regimes do as well when Amnesty International issues reports on them too.

Now this is just a recent estimate which you might want to dismiss because of the source but regardless those tunnels have been taking a major hit, new ones are not being built, even the US is helping destroy them with some developed tech to better find them.

Last year some 1200 tunnels were operating. Today that number has dropped to around 400.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/04/tunnelling-egypt

The 2008 World Bank figure presented in your view lacks chronological context.

Edited by Rosewin

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Moon Monkey

Dec 2008, but whatever. I am not really convinced by one line in an Amnesty blurb saying 'things have gotten worse' and a Al Jazeera blog (do you ever learn?).

Anyway, in closing, as of Dec 2008 (if you like) the gazans had more supplies than they had pre-blockade and now, assuming that the barrier has put paid to smuggling, due to an EGYPTIAN barrier they don't. Can we say that ?

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Rosewin

Dec 2008, but whatever. I am not really convinced by one line in an Amnesty blurb saying 'things have gotten worse' and a Al Jazeera blog (do you ever learn?).

Anyway, in closing, as of Dec 2008 (if you like) the gazans had more supplies than they had pre-blockade and now, assuming that the barrier has put paid to smuggling, due to an EGYPTIAN barrier they don't. Can we say that ?

You have failed to factor in levels of aid Israel was allowing in during that time when the blockade was fresh and they had not yet relaxed it to the point it is now if you can even call it that? You are still combining 2008 data with 2010 data.

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Moon Monkey

You have failed to factor in levels of aid Israel was allowing in during that time when the blockade was fresh and they had not yet relaxed it to the point it is now if you can even call it that? You are still combining 2008 data with 2010 data.

Your own blog says the smugglers are not restricted by the wall at all, they simply cut through it. There is also no reason as to why the numbers of tunnels have dropped...maybe it is because Hamas has stopped the bedouins digging to maintain total control of supplies, there is evidence of this and extremely high 'digging taxes' being levied by them. There is no reason to believe the ammount smuggled in has dropped much so I don't feel uncomfortable about using Dec 2008 World Bank figures. All the other estimates I have seen have been at or above this level.....unless you have different figures.

You didn't reply to the EGYPTIANS building a wall to stop supplies.

You didn't explain where this 'minimum' 7+ million tonnes of aid is.

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Rosewin

There is also no reason as to why the numbers of tunnels have dropped...

You called it a blurb but the fact remains. Unless you have counter evidence from another agency there really is no contest regarding the dubious mathematics of your view.

Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels

http://www.amnesty.o...ians-2010-06-01

Edited by Rosewin

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