Tai chi and other martial arts

[Dougal]

I do believe they exist beyond any doubt. I am convinced these Masters exist but they are few and far beyond the level of everyday people and would never show their skills off(since they would loose them by doing so) and they have dropped theor competitive attachment. These kind of people are self-cultivators and cultivate their body and mind and have to drop all their desires and emotions to achieve such skills. They only try their skills when nobody can see them.

This is well described in the book Zhuan Falun about martial arts cultivation.

Why would they lose their skills if they showed them off? How do they know that they can kill with a single touch if they only practice these skills alone?

Further to this, if they lie so low and don't show off, why is there a book written about it?

Sounds like rubbish to me.

[Dustin leone]

Dougal you think its rubbish only because your mind is not truely open to energies and things that are above you in every way. Had your mind been open to the idea you would not have posted what you did.

[Pauly Dangerously]

That's ridiculous. Martial arts are a way to help you survive. It has nothing to do with the energy of the universe. I'm a black belt in Shorin Ryu and the physicality is all that matters. People who have been in fights or had to use thier skills to defend thier lives, don't talk about the spirit or the energy, they talk about being scared and having the training to stop a violent attack and maybe make it out alive. That's why soldiers never talk about the "spirituality" of combat. There's nothing spiritual about killing people, it's simply that when it's you or them, you try your best to make sure it's them.

[aquatus1]

Like i said, all you get are stories. No body count, no actual evidence, nothing but a story and an excuse.

[Dougal]

Dougal you think its rubbish only because your mind is not truely open to energies and things that are above you in every way. Had your mind been open to the idea you would not have posted what you did.

Why should I believe in something simply because somebody on the internet tells me, there's no evidence, nothing beyond your word and a few stories. Open mindedness on these forums apparently means gullibility. Stories around the camp fire might amuse me for a few hours, but only evidence is going to change my mind.

[Gauss]

Why would they lose their skills if they showed them off?

If anyone with such skills show the world what he can do the world will change and it will no longer be a human society. The maze down here would disappear and normal people are in a maze because they deserve to be in a maze because of their karma acquired from many lives. Nobody is allowed to interfere like that with human society and if doing that he will immediately be sent down and punished.

Only by self-cultivation can anyone reach out of the maze and see other dimensions and truth. Most people can not believe anything their flesh eyes can not see. These Masters are nothing like everyday people and if they fight they do it in other dimensions.

[Dougal]

right... so these people are above human, showing off their skills will destroy human society, and we all deserve to be below these "masters" because of Karma?

Once again i'm gonna ask, you got any evidence? My "flesh eyes" certainly can't see anything here but creative writing....

Maybe when i learn to open my "spirit eyes" i'll get to see these masters fighting in another dimension....or maybe i'll just be commited instead?

[Gauss]

right... so these people are above human, showing off their skills will destroy human society, and we all deserve to be below these "masters" because of Karma?

Once again i'm gonna ask, you got any evidence? My "flesh eyes" certainly can't see anything here but creative writing....

Maybe when i learn to open my "spirit eyes" i'll get to see these masters fighting in another dimension....or maybe i'll just be commited instead?

Yes their "Xinxing" level(human attachments are mostly gone, tiny amount of karma left, a large forbearance, high virtue, exceptional endurance etc etc) are way beyond everyday people´s level and their third eye is open at a high level. Human desires and emotions must be cultivated away to reach the "Ding"(level of concentration and stillness) needed to visit higher dimensions like these people can do.

This is not achieved in a few days of course.... Many years of practice and self-cultivation is needed.

When one sits down to meditate in double Lotus and reaches Ding right away then one has reached the high level. That is the objective of all Falun Dafa practitioners.

Why do many of you people always ask for "proof"? There is no official or "scientific" proof whatsoever!

Can you not understand it? You must find truth by yourself and you must work very hard on your heart and search your inner self to reach these levels! You are responsible for yourself and your "truth" at your current level, nobody else! "Truth" changes as one rises higher and higher and improves one´s Xinxing.

Nobody(except our Lord Buddha) is allowed to disturb the human society and take away the maze.

You could try and read stories from people who reached these levels.

Here is one such story: http://pureinsight.org/node/308

[aquatus1]

Why do many of you people always ask for "proof"?

Because, as much as we would like to believe a story like this, we simply don't trust you.

There is no official or "scientific" proof whatsoever!

Similarly, there is no reason to believe that such things exist.

Can you not understand it?

Absolutely. You believe that, much like any faith-based concept, you must first believe it to exist before you can actually experience it. You, on the other hand, refuse to understand our point. Our point is that, however far back you go, military leaders have always taken advantage of any effective combat system. One of the most well-researched, well-funded, highly desired, technologies is the ability to kill others as efficiently as possible. And yet, despite techniques that actually work, that are thousands of years old and that have been incorporated into practically every trained military force in the world, there is absolutely nothing in regards to mystical combat. Nothing.

Nothing, of course, but stories. And, what you are offering here, excuses.

[Gauss]

Because, as much as we would like to believe a story like this, we simply don't trust you.

Similarly, there is no reason to believe that such things exist.

Nothing, of course, but stories. And, what you are offering here, excuses.

Each one enlightens to his level and truth.

I tell everyone interested in finding higher truths that what they "believe", who is "right" or who they "trust" is unimportant.

Focus is to improve yourself, work hard on your heart, mind and body and eliminate all your desires and emotions. The rewards will follow suit.

[Dougal]

Because, as much as we would like to believe a story like this, we simply don't trust you.

Similarly, there is no reason to believe that such things exist.

Absolutely. You believe that, much like any faith-based concept, you must first believe it to exist before you can actually experience it. You, on the other hand, refuse to understand our point. Our point is that, however far back you go, military leaders have always taken advantage of any effective combat system. One of the most well-researched, well-funded, highly desired, technologies is the ability to kill others as efficiently as possible. And yet, despite techniques that actually work, that are thousands of years old and that have been incorporated into practically every trained military force in the world, there is absolutely nothing in regards to mystical combat. Nothing.

Nothing, of course, but stories. And, what you are offering here, excuses.

I only wish i could word things so eloquently and succinctly

[aquatus1]

Each one enlightens to his level and truth.

Agreed. How we enlighten to out level and truth differs. Some of us simply accept what others tell us. Others want to find out the truth ourselves.

I tell everyone interested in finding higher truths that what they "believe", who is "right" or who they "trust" is unimportant.

Yes, well, scam artists say the same thing.

Focus is to improve yourself, work hard on your heart, mind and body and eliminate all your desires and emotions. The rewards will follow suit.

Irrelevant. Again, the point is that, out of the millenia that these stories have been circulating, out of the hundreds of techniques that have survived to this day simply because they work, we do not have a single mystical one.

[Gauss]

Agreed. How we enlighten to out level and truth differs. Some of us simply accept what others tell us. Others want to find out the truth ourselves.

I just said you should enlighten to truth by yourself and yet you twist my words again and again....

Am I trying to sell you something, is that why you call me a scam artist?

Your way(surfing the web) of finding "truth" is completely different from mine(meditation, self-cultivation of heart and mind).

We are speaking about two completely different ways of finding truths. One is very easy and one is very arduous.

My truth is within myself when meditating, your truth is outside yourself when looking for external "proof" like a scientific article.

Your truth is absolute and mine is variable. Each level of third eye has a different truth and therefore my "truth" will constantly change as you raise your level of Ding and third eye.

Falun Dafa has more than 100 million people practicing in Dafa today and that is a pretty significant number of people surpassing most if not all other forms of martial arts.

All of this has happened in less than 20 years for Dafa and that despite being forbidden in China... If that is not indicative of the success rate for practitioners what is? If people do not see any progress they will stop practicing...

My friend, I suggest you try to open your third eye(! ) and do the maths.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Gauss

[SlimJim22]

Seeing is believing as they say. When you hear reference to the third eye, some people may imagine physical opening of an eye centred in the crown chakra. This is a problem inherent in western understanding. To see with the third eye is to look within and examine layers of mind not easily encountered. This is why there is need for meditation, empiricism or experientilism. The taoists were on the right path and the Buddha refined the thought into a more comprehensible framework. It is the noble eightfold path but we need only concern ourselves with the first step: Right view.

Right view is the beginning and the end of the path, it simply means to see and to understand things as they really are and to realise the Four Noble Truth. As such, right view is the cognitive aspect of wisdom. It means to see things through, to grasp the impermanent and imperfect nature of worldly objects and ideas, and to understand the law of karma and karmic conditioning. Right view is not necessarily an intellectual capacity, just as wisdom is not just a matter of intelligence. Instead, right view is attained, sustained, and enhanced through all capacities of mind. It begins with the intuitive insight that all beings are subject to suffering and it ends with complete understanding of the true nature of all things. Since our view of the world forms our thoughts and our actions, right view yields right thoughts and right actions.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

On Qi,

Qi can be best imagined by placing oneself in front of a tree for an hour, remaining motionless and letting whatever happens happen. For one should not attempt to comprehend Qi intellectually, but rather to experience it. Nevertheless, I shall attempt to find a few words to help clarify it. Qi is not anything "new". Qi is a collective term for a communicative sphere in Nature which combines everything on the etheric level and makes an exchange possible at this structural level, just as in astrology, for example, where Mercury can effect the physical as well as mental state of a living being. Qi is a connective term which the breath of the cosmos can be explicated with. Qi, or simply vibrations, does not need to be manifested in a visible form. There are countless types of Qi, depending on the surroundings and context it effects. Thus, we have a certain quality of Qi for each organ in our bodies, since each organ has its own typical character and specific task and consequently, its own energy. Biophotons are an essential component of Qi in Nature because they are the smallest carriers of light, which transfer and exchange light from one form to another.

Daoists - like the Druids, the ancient magicians of Nature - have always viewed the light of creation as something spontaneous and inspiring. A fundamental, but most often ignored characteristic of Qi holds true even today: creativity, the spiral. Spirals, many thousands of years old, are seen by the hundreds in cave drawings in the Cisalpine region, and the same patterns are found in Chartres, the spiral labyrinths - influenced by the Druids - in Brittany, Ireland and Scotland. Such types of "snake universes", as can be seen in the magical diagrams of the Daoists or African shamans, signify the spiral dynamics, the scientifically described "creativity" of the cosmic energy. Therefore, the creative human being is capable of producing the most Qi. For this reason, the practice of an art such as music, poetry or painting was a fundamental component of the education of future priests of Nature both in the Daoistic as well as in the Druid teachings.

Perfect tone, poetry, color, light and vibrations, find your elemental personal expression of creation and perfect your Being through perfecting the arts.

http://www.apophaticmysticism.com/Qigong.html

In the west any aim of transendence is humoured but not taken seriously because we believe that we have the answers by separating everything into abstractions. This is how we see our reality but it is imperfect. The eastern view asserts that every time the mind becomes still transendance is achieved and the individuls mind is going beyond the boundries of dualism and separation. This is why mysticism in the west has needed to be kept relatively secret while in the east mysticism is accepted as the norm and thus prctised far more openly. When mind and body can become as one then the individual is a lethal weapon capable of impressive feats. Sure practice and conditioning play a part but so much of martial arts is mental it shouldn't be ignored.

[aquatus1]

I just said you should enlighten to truth by yourself and yet you twist my words again and again....

Not at all. I am simply showing you our point of view, much as you keep emphasizing yours. You certainly are making an effort to be understood, and I have summarized your point (you have not said that my summary is incorrect, so I am concluding it is acceptable). Certainly you who have claimed to not be understood, don't mind trying to understand others?

Am I trying to sell you something, is that why you call me a scam artist?

I didn't call you a scam artist. I did say that the same standards that you are using are used by scam artists.

Your way(surfing the web) of finding "truth" is completely different from mine(meditation, self-cultivation of heart and mind).

You do know what they say about when you "assume", right?

We are speaking about two completely different ways of finding truths. One is very easy and one is very arduous.

I agree entirely. One way involves having to actually delve into the very source of your beliefs, questioning your dearly held assumptions, overturning not some external idea but rather something that is a part of your very psyche.

The other way involves taking it for granted that something exists and spending years enforcing that belief.

One is very hard. The other is very easy.

My truth is within myself when meditating, your truth is outside yourself when looking for external "proof" like a scientific article.

True enough. See, I don't trust myself either. I know that I am easily duped, both by myself and by others.

Your truth is absolute and mine is variable. Each level of third eye has a different truth and therefore my "truth" will constantly change as you raise your level of Ding and third eye.

Well, now you are going back into "These things I believe!", so, yeah, not interested.

Falun Dafa has more than 100 million people practicing in Dafa today and that is a pretty significant number of people surpassing most if not all other forms of martial arts.

More stories.

All of this has happened in less than 20 years for Dafa and that despite being forbidden in China... If that is not indicative of the success rate for practitioners what is? If people do not see any progress they will stop practicing...

Ask the various religious groups around the world about that.

My friend, I suggest you try to open your third eye(! ) and do the maths.

Oh, there was a time that I believed in all this. There was even a time that I was convinced that I was psychic. As it turned out, I realized that spirituality is actually more subtle than that. All this nonsense about one sort of spirituality being superior to another, about spiritual martial artists being able to do more than regular martial artists...when all is said and done, all it is is talk.

Edited July 7, 2010 by aquatus1

[Gauss]

when all is said and done, all it is is talk.

When all is said and done down here we are all "dead" and by then everyone will see real truth. All debts must be paid back. I try to prepare for death.

Our differences boil down to me trying to improve myself now and become a good person and enlighten to higher truths now while meditating while for most people death will smack them in the face and by then their time to cultivate up is finished. Too late and painful regrets will follow.

This place called earth is like a hotel, we spend a few days here and then we go to the next station in our loop unless we became too bad with massive karma and get eliminated.

In my case I want to go home, to my original home and get out of Samsara and I am prepared to sacrifice alot to achieve that and I must do it now since time is very limited according to my beliefs.

Everyone is different and my way of life is not exactly average... However, I respect anyone´s choice of life.

[Dougal]

The differences are that some people spend their time looking for answers and searching in a reasonable manner that can provide results that are demonstratable. You however "look inwards" providing yourself with any answers that you want with absolutely nothing to support them.

It's easy to kid yourself when you decide what the answers are. It's alot harder to accept that something you believe is wrong when you're presented with the evidence.

[aquatus1]

When all is said and done down here we are all "dead" and by then everyone will see real truth. All debts must be paid back. I try to prepare for death.

Same here.

Our differences boil down to me trying to improve myself now and become a good person and enlighten to higher truths now while meditating while for most people death will smack them in the face and by then their time to cultivate up is finished. Too late and painful regrets will follow.

No, that isn't our difference. Our difference is just in the way we choose to find enlightenment.

This place called earth is like a hotel, we spend a few days here and then we go to the next station in our loop unless we became too bad with massive karma and get eliminated.

You do understand why you are always being accused of preaching, right? I mean, at least I was able to show that I understood your point of view. You haven't even tried to show you understand mine.

In my case I want to go home, to my original home and get out of Samsara and I am prepared to sacrifice alot to achieve that and I must do it now since time is very limited according to my beliefs.

Hey, more power to you.

Everyone is different and my way of life is not exactly average... However, I respect anyone´s choice of life.

Doesn't sound so much like respect as it does like condescension. Doesn't really sound like you even try to understand other peoples choices.

[Gauss]

Doesn't sound so much like respect as it does like condescension. Doesn't really sound like you even try to understand other peoples choices.

Instead of talking about my character or beliefs could you finally tell us which is your chosen way of finding enlightenment and meaning to life?

Please specify the rewards you have reaped from your chosen way to enlightenment.

Thank you.

[Gauss]

The differences are that some people spend their time looking for answers and searching in a reasonable manner that can provide results that are demonstratable. You however "look inwards" providing yourself with any answers that you want with absolutely nothing to support them.

It's easy to kid yourself when you decide what the answers are. It's alot harder to accept that something you believe is wrong when you're presented with the evidence.

I have on several occasions said that my "truth" is variable and changes as I raise my level. I also said our current "truth" is not important and also personal "beliefs" are unimportant.

Your external knowledge and beliefs you have in your daily life will all be taken away after death and only your true heart remains.

That is why I believe achieving a pure and benevolent heart is the real meaning. You do it by eliminating all of your desires and emotions in practical life.

Swedenborg described it in detail in his book heaven and hell. Brilliant people believed they could keep their minds in heaven but it was just taken away and then they were "naked" with only their hearts left.

Tell us, what is important in your life?

Edited July 8, 2010 by Gauss

[aquatus1]

Instead of talking about my character or beliefs could you finally tell us which is your chosen way of finding enlightenment and meaning to life?

I don't think you are willing to listen.

Please specify the rewards you have reaped from your chosen way to enlightenment.

Thank you.

As long as you think in terms of rewards, you'll never get there.

[Gauss]

I don't think you are willing to listen.

I just asked you to tell us your way to enlightenment. I want to hear it.

[Dougal]

I have on several occasions said that my "truth" is variable and changes as I raise my level. I also said our current "truth" is not important and also personal "beliefs" are unimportant.

Your external knowledge and beliefs you have in your daily life will all be taken away after death and only your true heart remains.

That is why I believe achieving a pure and benevolent heart is the real meaning. You do it by eliminating all of your desires and emotions in practical life.

Swedenborg described it in detail in his book heaven and hell. Brilliant people believed they could keep their minds in heaven but it was just taken away and then they were "naked" with only their hearts left.

Tell us, what is important in your life?

I hate to fall back on the old "where's the evidence" again, but you're making some wild claims here.

Which brilliant minds thought they could keep their mind in heaven? Where are you getting your evidence that their mind was taken away?

What do you mean by Heart by the way? As I see it, there's not much use having a heart without a head as it were.

[emily77]

Am I allowed to post other people's poetry here?...I do not think Li Po will mind, being as he is dead. I feel this poem says so much and is relevant to the conversation taking place.

Hard is the Journey

Gold vessels of fine wines,

thousands a gallon,

Jade dishes of rare meats,

costing more thousands,

I lay my chopsticks down,

no more can banquet,

I draw my sword and stare

wildly about me:

Ice bars my way to cross

the Yellow River,

Snows from dark skies to climb

the T'ai-hang mountains!

At peace I drop a hook

into a brooklet,

At once I'm in a boat

but sailing sunward...

(Hard is the journey,

Hard is the journey,

So many turnings,

And now where am I?)

So when a breeze breaks waves,

bringing fair weather,

I set a cloud for sails,

cross the blue oceans!

Li Po

I don't think you are willing to listen.

As long as you think in terms of rewards, you'll never get there.

[emily77]

Question - I have been wanting to take a martial arts class for quite a while. Can any of you tell me the type you practice and what you like about it?