Disarming Israel

[danielost]

No. Because Israel strikes back. They are not just victims waiting in the dark for villins to attack their borders. Each time they are attacked they attack back with considerably more force.

You still do not have the right to go kill a group of people because meambers of their community keeps attacking you.

And what about using your shotgun to blast intruders while killing your neighbors? Is it OK to kill neighbors if they are harboring a criminal? Is harboring criminals given the Death Penalty now?

lets try it this way. there is man standing there with a gun who is going to kill your child do you have the right to kill him.

now this same man is standing behind another person, are you going to stand there and let him kill your child because if you shot back you might kill the other person. and you cant get between them because your child is closer to the shooter than you are.

Edited June 8, 2010 by danielost

[Karlis]

What do you folks say about this statement in the OP?

"... the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas."

Karlis

[Pseudo Intellectual]

What do you folks say about this statement in the OP?

"... the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas."

Karlis

Well, it's true. Even the activists themselves admitted the whole thing was about breaking the blockade, not delivering aid.

[Rosewin]

DieChecker and daniel, in your scenarios you would have a greater authority arrive and arrest both the murderer and the thieves. In this case the greater authority is the UN.

Its funny how the defenders of Israel are the ones who equate it to the "Jews". I guess those folks only believe in a Jewish Israel, which is maybe why they don't give a hoot about the plight of the Palestinians, cause Israel is only for the Jews, "the chosen race". Here we call that philosophy "separatism" as in "white supremacy".

btw... YOU FORGOT THE OTHER 6 MILLION. 6 million Jews is a tragedy, 6 million other people isn't even worth mentioning........ I see that all the time in arguments, movies, articles, TV and books. An estimated 12 million people died in the Holocaust, not 6. Maybe actually "remembering" the Holocaust doesn't support the notion that Israel needs to behave as it does, when more than half the story is told.........

This is so true. When people think of WW2 and the Holocaust they instantly think Jews. While an estimated 6 million of them were victims what about the other estimated 11 million others who died? A total of 17 million but only 6 take the spotlight as the ultimate victims.

Jews unlike other tribes had a deity that was tied to their history, ups and downs, unlike other tribes whose deities were abandoned as soon as they were succesfully invaded by those with more powerful deities. For this reason Jews have been able to maintain their tribal identity throughout history. It is also for this reason Jews consider themselves victims, even as the have become the ultimate agressor, not a new role but one they have not had since their earliest conquest of Canaan. This tribal identity all is also a reason why they still consider it them against the world.

Their tribal thinking is outdated for a modern world and does not lend itself to peace, something they claim they wish but do not act like it.

Well my point is that this blockade has been going on for years now and people are just getting mad at how illegal and barbaric it is? Just seems a bit odd.

It is called a reaction. Did you think everyone was going to ignore it or simply label it as a case of bad terrorists getting repelled by poor and innocent Israel.

Also many have disapproved of Israel's government and the blockade but rarely have a forum to voice their concerns. Most conversations introduced by those with concerns are usually dismissed by those with attitude of 'they have been killing themselves for years, it will never end, and so is not really worthy of discussion'. Or worse those with such attitudes will make it seem you are just complaining and not want to discuss it at all.

So while it appears to you that the Middle East situation is only recently being discussed perhaps you were simply one of those who never took any great concern with that region. Is this the source of your complaints?

Or maybe you are simply missing the way the World Events & Current Affairs forum was before the multitude of threads being generated to this and just want it like it used to be. In that case I would agree with you.

For example was there really a reason to have three threads just for the MV Rachel Corrie, one to announce the departure, another to announce it was being boarded when it still had not been (talk about jumping the gun), then a third thread again announcing it had been boarded or something.

It might be because those other two MV Rachel Corrie thread creators did not approve of the first one, or the spin of the OP on it, so wanted to create their own thread thinking the first post will actually make the conversation more favorable to their own view. Sucky logic which assumes they can set the tone of a conversation not realizing the tone is set by the posters and information available and not the OP. This is the result.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Rosewin

[Erikl]

The Jews annoy the world because we refuse to committ suicide.. we can't actively defense ourselves (the Goldstone report) against missiles attack, we can't defend ourselves against suicide bombers (the fence that actually stopped the suicide bombers wave back in the early 2000s is equated to a gettho), and now we can't passively defend ourselves (a blockade against an enemy state). So I guess the only solution for these guys is that we what? committ mass suicide? disarming Israel... yeah right... this thread should be renamed to "How to make sure those pesky 6 million Jews in the middle east are dead".

[MichaelW]

Israel would only have you believe it was defending itself. It was trained and armed commandos versus untrained and unarmed civilians.

Mmmmmmm.........delusional rambling. I have seen some propaganda in my time, but this certianly takes the cake.

Untrained an unarmed civilians? By whatever do you mean? Hamas would have you believe they were the victim, when in fact they poked the grim reaper with a rather large and very pointy stick, and then ran home crying. Israel is entitled to self defence, just like any country in the world. And as for the blockade- doesn't the United Nations and the US impose trade restrictions and embargoes on North Korea?

I'm only saying, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Otherwise, it isn't exactly fair, is it?

[Erikl]

It is also for this reason Jews consider themselves victims, even as the have become the ultimate agressor, not a new role but one they have not had since their earliest conquest of Canaan.

You forgot the murder of Jesus Christ as well... and ofcourse making Mazzah from young Christain (oops... Palestinians) blood for Passover.

[preacherman76]

the gaza strip is not promised to isreal in the bible.

Right on DL. In fact, it was promised to be "uprooted"

[danielost]

Right on DL. In fact, it was promised to be "uprooted"

but the rest of it was including the west bank.

[eqgumby]

My grandfather, a muslim partizan, died in the concentrations lager Jasenice in Croatia, together with about 150 other muslims and serbs, croatian partizans, gipsies... I guess they are not worthy. Could I ask for some money too?

Could I gett a piece of the cake? I guess not. The other 6 million non jews who died at camps are simply not god's chosen people, just dirt.

My Dad is sixty eight now. He was only 2 months old when he lost his heroic father to the nazis.

But who cares. Israel, Israel, Israel. Nothing else matters, right?

Israel Israel Israel, because it was made a self governing state after WW2, using land captured from the allies of the Nazi regime. Who attacked who 20 years later? Blame your childish, insecure, dishonorable brethren who use your faith to justify murder, repression, oppression, and aggression, as well as sexual discrimination and racism.

[eqgumby]

DieChecker and daniel, in your scenarios you would have a greater authority arrive and arrest both the murderer and the thieves. In this case the greater authority is the UN.

What a farce.

The UN?

On WHAT planet will the UN step in and clean up Hamas?

And seriousely. wait for a greater authority, while your governments people are dying? Bull. Absolutely absurd.

Hamas and Co. don't care a BIT about the Palestinians that suffer every day, they LIE to their own people, claiming Israel won't allow aid in when Israel won't allow weapons in, and sponsoring propaganda that LITERALLY claims Jews are not "real" humans, and that they use the blood of Palestinians to make matza bread.

[Rosewin]

Israel Israel Israel, because it was made a self governing state after WW2, using land captured from the allies of the Nazi regime. Who attacked who 20 years later? Blame your childish, insecure, dishonorable brethren who use your faith to justify murder, repression, oppression, and aggression, as well as sexual discrimination and racism.

You do know that the Bosniaks have been the victims of one of the most terrible genocides of the last twenty years by not just the Serbs but also the Croats going at them? I understand some also committed atrocities helping Croats ethnically cleanse Serbs. It seems everyone has their hand dirty there but to accuse the Bosniaks of all you did in your last sentence is not quite the honest assessment.

[eqgumby]

You do know that the Bosniaks have been the victims of one of the most terrible genocides of the last twenty years by not just the Serbs but also the Croats going at them? I understand some also committed atrocities helping Croats ethnically cleanse Serbs. It seems everyone has their hand dirty there but to accuse the Bosniaks of all you did in your last sentence is not quite the honest assessment.

Did I say ANYTHING about Bosnia?

Get of your high anti-semitic horse.

Your false and misleading posts are truly getting on everyones nerves.

[Rosewin]

My grandfather, a muslim partizan, died in the concentrations lager Jasenice in Croatia

Blame your childish, insecure, dishonorable brethren who use your faith to justify murder, repression, oppression, and aggression, as well as sexual discrimination and racism.

The Bosniaks are his brethren.

[eqgumby]

The Bosniaks are his brethren.

Israel Israel Israel because his brethren, so called Muslims, are all too often as insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant as so called Christians were 1000 years ago.

Bosniaks died at someones hands, as have Christians of an assortment of nationalities. What do you want, a running tally over the last 2 five thousand years to see who killed more of who? Determine who the under-dog is at this point, so you can determine who is most at fault? It's absurd.

[Rosewin]

What do you want, a running tally over the last 2 five thousand years to see who killed more of who?

No, Bosniaks were only brought because you were referring to them when you said they were using their, "faith to justify murder, repression, oppression, and aggression, as well as sexual discrimination and racism." The Bosniaks have always been victims and have never repressed anyone in their whole history but have it done to them multiple times. * snip *

Bosniaks are of the same ethnic stock as Croats and Serbs but they chose to convert to Islam under the enlightened Ottoman Empire. You know when the Christians in Europe at that time were 'insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant' to borrow your phrase. One Ottoman map shows the world past the Balkans as simply blacked out with the title like 'lands of slavery or darkness' I forget which. Well when these same 'insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant' Christians took the land back they have consistently tried to attack all who were not Christian and even up until the 1990s the 'Turks' as these ethnic Southern Slavs are called were victim of a genocide.

Sorry to disabuse your initial claim because Bosniaks are anything but 'insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant'.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Saru
Removed inflammatory remark

[odas]

No, Bosniaks were only brought because you were referring to them when you said they were using their, "faith to justify murder, repression, oppression, and aggression, as well as sexual discrimination and racism." The Bosniaks have always been victims and have never repressed anyone in their whole history but have it done to them multiple times.

Bosniaks are of the same ethnic stock as Croats and Serbs but they chose to convert to Islam under the enlightened Ottoman Empire. You know when the Christians in Europe at that time were 'insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant' to borrow your phrase. One Ottoman map shows the world past the Balkans as simply blacked out with the title like 'lands of slavery or darkness' I forget which. Well when these same 'insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant' Christians took the land back they have consistently tried to attack all who were not Christian and even up until the 1990s the 'Turks' as these ethnic Southern Slavs are called were victim of a genocide.

Sorry to disabuse your initial claim because Bosniaks are anything but 'insane, power hungry, brutal, and ignorant'.

Thanks, Rosewin.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

You forgot the murder of Jesus Christ as well... and ofcourse making Mazzah from young Christain (oops... Palestinians) blood for Passover.

Speaking of blood libel, did you hear what the Syrians said at the Human Rights Council yesterday? “Let me quote a song that a group of children on a school bus in Israel sing merrily as they go to school and I quote ‘With my teeth I will rip your flesh. With my mouth I will suck your blood.’”

[eqgumby]

* snip *

Edited June 9, 2010 by Saru
Removed personal attacks and flaming. If the discussion is winding you up to that extent then take a break from it.

[Moon Monkey]

- Post removed -

Be fair, she has only believed that for the last 10 years.

[danielost]

DieChecker and daniel, in your scenarios you would have a greater authority arrive and arrest both the murderer and the thieves. In this case the greater authority is the UN.

========================================================================================================

in this case the police, greater authority, are not only going to not stop the shooter, but going to give him more ammo and tell you that you have to let your child get shot and killed.

Edited June 9, 2010 by danielost

[Rosewin]

Thanks, Rosewin.

YVW, odas.

DieChecker and daniel, in your scenarios you would have a greater authority arrive and arrest both the murderer and the thieves. In this case the greater authority is the UN.

========================================================================================================

in this case the police, greater authority, are not only going to not stop the shooter, but going to give him more ammo and tell you that you have to let your child get shot and killed.

The UN is not in favor of further arming the Palestinians, or the Iranians, or anyone else. Your fears mirror those of the Israeli's but I do not see any evidence that the UN wishes to arm Palestine.

[Fernand0]

Britain’s new pro-Israel prime minister, David Cameron, called the Gaza siege, “completely unacceptable.” UN chief Ban Ki-moon said Israel was “punishing civilians,” a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions.

That doesn't stop the USA from punishing Cuban civilians with an embargo for what Castro is doing.

Disarming Israel

Wishful thinking with the Armageddon fetish the Christian right has.

[danielost]

That doesn't stop the USA from punishing Cuban civilians with an embargo for what Castro is doing.

Wishful thinking with the Armageddon fetish the Christian right has.

if cuba was shooting missiles at us there would be no cuba tomorrow.

[Watchers]

Go ahead....disarm Israel. Or are you guys forgetting what happened during the 6 day war? The Israeli's had a bunch of makeshift weapons and no ammunition. They were up against Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria. What'd they do? They made bullet cartridges out of lipstick cases in the basement of a laundromat and fashioned automatic rifles together out of pieces of pipes and beat back the entire Egyptian army and the rest of the entire Arab world. 6 days later, the Arabs were crying for the war that THEY started to stop.

What I find more pathetic than anything is when UNINFORMED people try to pick a side and form an argument. Facts are facts, and until you guys stop ignoring them, and picking and choosing, you'll never see the reality of what's going on.

Israel does not condone suicide bombings, or intentionally endangering its own civilian populace. The Muslim's they're fighting do condone this. There are two mentalities going on here, and it's understandable why such confusion has arisen. The first mentality is the American, or New-age "clean war" mentality where if your enemy is hiding behind civilians, you do nothing, you bargain with them, and you spend trillions of dollars and put your own troops lives at risk to fight around the civilians and surgically take out the enemy. Yes, in an ideal world, this would be great. But I think even the U.S. and other world-powers are starting to see (and will in the future, definitely see), that fighting this type of war will simply not work. Mentality #2 is the Israeli, or traditional way that a war is fought. The enemy attacks you, you attack back. The enemy hides behind their civilians, you bomb the enemy. You don't put your troops in any more danger than is absolutely necessary to win the war. This is how wars should be fought, period. If you're a civilian or a citizen of a country who engages in a war and HIDES BEHIND YOU, or uses you as BAIT, then maybe you should wake up and realize you need to GET THE HECK OUT. If this hasn't occurred to you, then perhaps the reason you're staying is because you hate the enemy just as much as your own government, and thus, in my eyes, you cease to become a civilian, and become a supporter of my enemy.

Fighting a clean war against an enemy whose religion and fundamental ways of thinking is ingrained in them from birth is impossible. There is no getting through to them, and there is no way to get along until the teaching of HATE stops. Does Israel teach in its schools that ALL Muslims are bad? No. Does the Torah or the Tanakh preach that all Muslims should be systematically slaughtered? No. However, the reality IS that MANY Muslim schools and family-systems DO teach that ALL Jews are the infidel, and need to be slaughtered.

My point?

Quit pointing the finger at Israel. Find the source of the hatred and problem, and eliminate it. The source isn't Israel, and that's clear.

Also, I think the world needs to accept that when Israel (or any country) gets attacked, if they attack back...it's their right to do so. Just because the U.S. has adopted a policy of "let's stick our heads in the sand, and take a beating on our butts", doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to. Do you all recall U.S. policy 60 years ago? The Japanese bombed pearl harbor and killed 2402 people. The U.S. turned around and bombed Hiroshima & Nagasaki killing 225,000 people (men, women, children...the entire city). I still support this action, because I agree with their train of thought. What WAS their train of thought? Well, they calculated that by bombing those two cities, they would actually be SAVING more lives (on both the U.S. AND Japanese side) than if they were to launch a full out ground assault on Japan. The logic is undeniable. Do you kill 225,000 and end the war immediately, saving billions of dollars and millions of lives. Or do you go ahead and launch a full out ground assault, and risk 3-4 million deaths, and spend billions of dollars in the process?

It may sound sick, but killing 225,000 people is better than killing 4 million. I'd sure like to hear the counter argument to that statement. If everyone adopted this policy, then perhaps there wouldn't be so many wars, because people would actually be AFRAID to do stupid **** and mess with the other country. The Arabs are loving this new world because they get to attack anyone, whenever they want, however they want, and get away with it! They can bomb, throw rocks, shoot missiles, make biological weapons, make nuclear weapons, threaten to use all of their weapons on innocent populaces, bomb trains, bomb schools, bomb plains, etc. etc. etc. and what happens? The world posts it as a headline in a newspaper for a day, and moves on. But what happens when Israel actually decides to do something about the bull? It gets tossed around in the papers for a month as a headline. It's laughable.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Watchers