Disarming Israel

[Rosewin]

Well to start with the ICC can only take action against a national of a signitory state, the palestinians are not a state, although the PA have tried to allow them to operate in the West Bank and Gaza but as yet the jurisdiction has been ratified.

Can you provide this list of israelis who have had ICC warrants issued against them please. Thank you.

That is an issue that is currently being addressed. The process is underway though for the ICC to recognize Palestine as a quasi-state, through their definition, and for the purposes of thus having jurisdiction over the Israeli crimes against humanity that occurred there. It will take time, the UN always does, once that is done the following process that will result have been repeated more than once, it is pretty standard now, resolutions, sanctions, then actual war crime trials.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Rosewin]

For those that are wanted.

The site, www.wanted.org.il, includes "arrest orders," complete with pictures and personal details, for Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai, Public Security Minister Avi Dichter, National Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and his two predecessors, Dan Halutz and Moshe Ya'alon, former air force commander Eliezer Shkedy and others. It also explains how to inform the International Criminal Court in The Hague of when the "suspects" are outside Israel, and hence vulnerable to arrest.

Examples of this in action.

Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister during the Gaza war, would probably face arrest on war crimes charges if he visited Britain, according to a UK lawyer who is working to expand the application of "universal jurisdiction" for offences involving serious human rights abuses committed anywhere in the world.

Neither Olmert nor Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister during the Cast Lead offensive, and a member of Israel's war cabinet, would enjoy immunity from prosecution for alleged breaches of the Geneva conventions, predicted Daniel Machover, who is involved in intensifying legal work after the controversial Goldstone report on the three-week conflict. Neither are ministers any longer.

Prosecutions of Israeli political and military figures remain likely despite the failure to obtain an arrest warrant for Ehud Barak, the defence minister, when he visited the UK earlier this month, he said. In the Barak case a magistrate accepted advice from the Foreign Office that the minister enjoyed state immunity and rejected an application made on behalf of several residents of the Gaza Strip.

"This needs to be tested at the right time and in the right place," Machover said. "One day one of these people will make a mistake and go to the wrong country and face a criminal process — and then it'll be a matter for the courts of that country to give them a fair trial: that's what the Palestinian victims want."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/27/olmert-could-face-warcrimes-arrest

There are also 11 Mossad agents who are wanted.

Also yesterday, Interpol issued red wanted notices requesting the arrest of the 11 alleged assassins, whose photographs were gleaned from security cameras by the Dubai police and have been posted on Interpol's Web site.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/suspects-in-uae-killing-wanted-by-interpol-dubai-threatens-to-seek-mossad-chief-s-arrest-1.263608

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Tiggs]

Go ahead....disarm Israel. Or are you guys forgetting what happened during the 6 day war? The Israeli's had a bunch of makeshift weapons and no ammunition. They were up against Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria. What'd they do? They made bullet cartridges out of lipstick cases in the basement of a laundromat and fashioned automatic rifles together out of pieces of pipes and beat back the entire Egyptian army and the rest of the entire Arab world. 6 days later, the Arabs were crying for the war that THEY started to stop.

What a wonderful story. Can't wait to hear what the Israeli's fashioned the the A-4 Skyhawk, F-4 Phantom II, Dassault Mirage III, Dassault Super Mystère and IAI Nesher aircrafts from.

I'm equally looking forward to the tale of how they managed to rig together those M50 and M51 Shermans, M48A5 Patton, M60A1 Patton, Centurion and T-54/55 tanks the Israeli army used. Not to mention the various Howitzers and the Helicopters, etc.

I'm presuming somewhere along the line it involved B.A. Baracus, an abandoned garage and a welding kit.

Somehow, I think you're confusing the Ayalon Institute that manufactured ammunition illegally for the 1948 civil war with the 6 day war of 1967.

[Leonardo]

What a wonderful story. Can't wait to hear what the Israeli's fashioned the the A-4 Skyhawk, F-4 Phantom II, Dassault Mirage III, Dassault Super Mystère and IAI Nesher aircrafts from.

I'm equally looking forward to the tale of how they managed to rig together those M50 and M51 Shermans, M48A5 Patton, M60A1 Patton, Centurion and T-54/55 tanks the Israeli army used. Not to mention the various Howitzers and the Helicopters, etc.

I'm presuming somewhere along the line it involved B.A. Baracus, an abandoned garage and a welding kit.

Somehow, I think you're confusing the Ayalon Institute that manufactured ammunition illegally for the 1948 civil war with the 6 day war of 1967.

Not to mention, Tiggs, that Israel actually started the 6-Day War.

Why are so many people of the opinion that it was the Arabs who started the shooting in 1956 and 1967? Has Israel's/America's propaganda been that good?

Or are people simply too ignorant/lazy to bother learning real history?

[Moon Monkey]

This is why the ICC has more warrants out against Israelis than Hamas. Warrants that can be carried out by Interpol? "Currently sought war criminals" with actual warrants for them is a bit different than simply claiming everyone in this group or that one is a 'war criminal'.

That is an issue that is currently being addressed. The process is underway though for the ICC to recognize Palestine as a quasi-state, through their definition, and for the purposes of thus having jurisdiction over the Israeli crimes against humanity that occurred there. It will take time, the UN always does, once that is done the following process that will result have been repeated more than once, it is pretty standard now, resolutions, sanctions, then actual war crime trials.

For those that are wanted.

Examples of this in action.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/27/olmert-could-face-warcrimes-arrest

There are also 11 Mossad agents who are wanted.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/suspects-in-uae-killing-wanted-by-interpol-dubai-threatens-to-seek-mossad-chief-s-arrest-1.263608

We have done this many times in the last 2 weeks. You make a claim, I ask you for evidence, you go off on a tangent whilst never providing the evidence, I ask again, you claim you have already provided it. So I will try again:

So in clear and simple terms:

Your claim: The ICC has more warrants out against Israelis than Hamas

My request: Can you please provide the list of warrants that the ICC has issued against israelis and Hamas so we can check the facts. Thank you.

[Rosewin]

We have done this many times in the last 2 weeks. You make a claim, I ask you for evidence, you go off on a tangent whilst never providing the evidence, I ask again, you claim you have already provided it. So I will try again:

So in clear and simple terms:

Your claim: The ICC has more warrants out against Israelis than Hamas

My request: Can you please provide the list of warrants that the ICC has issued against israelis and Hamas so we can check the facts. Thank you.

That was not your original request, the following was.

Can you provide this list of israelis who have had ICC warrants issued against them please. Thank you.

And to that extend I satisfied it. Not exactly going off on a tangent.

[Moon Monkey]

And to that extend I satisfied it. Not exactly going off on a tangent.

And so it begins.

www.wanted.org is NOT, repeat NOT, the ICC. It is not affiliated with them. There is no mention of the ICC. There is no ICC list of israeli arrest warrants.

A guardian article saying "a solicitor says Olmert could face war crimes" is NOT an ICC warrant. There is no mention of the ICC. There is no ICC list of israeli arrest warrants.

An Ha'aretz article about interpol arrest warrants for photographs of UAE suspects is not an ICC warrant. There is no ICC list of israeli arrest warrants.

So again I ask you to provide the evidence to your claims, I don't mind if it is just the israeli list or the israeli and Hamas lists, whatever you want. Thank you.

[Rosewin]

www.wanted.org is NOT, repeat NOT, the ICC. It is not affiliated with them. There is no mention of the ICC. There is no ICC list of israeli arrest warrants.

The first question you asked was answered, that is a list of those who are wanted, if you wish to disprove any of those on that list are not wanted you are free to do so.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Moon Monkey]

The first question you asked was answered, that is a list of those who are wanted, if you wish to disprove any of those on that list are not wanted you are free to do so.

Absolute rubbish. Nothing you have posted has anything at all to do with the ICC and there has been no list of israelis wanted under ICC arrest warrants.

Why should I have to prove that a list made up by a joke website is not an ICC list ? It simply isn't, there is nothing to disprove.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[Rosewin]

Why should I have to prove that a list made up by a joke website is not an ICC list ? It simply isn't, there is nothing to disprove.

You are free to simply disagree too or call it a hoax. Those Israelis who are actually wanted though for war crimes refuse to land in London, for now they do not consider it a hoax.

I wonder though if the official wanted information for these Israelis is in the same vault as that original Sunday Times article regarding the Israeli research into an ethnic bioweapon.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Moon Monkey]

You are free to simply disagree.

I wonder though if the official wanted information for these Israelis is in the same vault as that original Sunday Times article regarding the Israeli research into an ethnic bioweapon.

Exactly as I predicted...make a claim, present tangents, pretend you have provided the information, ask me to disprove it instead and then change the subject into some conspiracy theory.

Let us not start on the ethno-bomb again as you didn't ever provide even the most basic source of your claim for that in 4 days. I await that article with interest. It is not a case of me disagreeing it is a case of me wanting you to ackonwledge that you are making false claims and refusing to either provide the evidence and information or retract your claims. In other words show that you are the dictionary definition of a propagandrist.

Can you or can you not provide the list of ICC issued arrest warrants against israelis that you claimed was greater than the number issued against Hamas ?

Edit : I see you have edited your post to talk about hoaxes...yes, it is your claim that is a hoax...unless you can back it up. Oh and you have just linked that Guardian article again, what has that got to do with anything ?

ICC list please. Thank you

Edited June 11, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Is this the arrest warrants list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_by_the_International_Criminal_Court

There are no Israelis there.

[Papagiorgio]

Absolute rubbish. Nothing you have posted has anything at all to do with the ICC and there has been no list of israelis wanted under ICC arrest warrants.

Why should I have to prove that a list made up by a joke website is not an ICC list ? It simply isn't, there is nothing to disprove.

I can't find anything about actual ICC arrest warrants for Israeli politicians. Until Hamas starts abiding by the Geneva Convention and the rules of war Israel claims the moral high ground. Blockade and all. Israel is doing their best to abide by the GC even though their opponents ignore it at best, and flaunt it at worst.

I have the solution: Stop firing rocket into Israel. Stop blowing up Israeli libraries, cafes, dance clubs, and buses.

[Moon Monkey]

Is this the arrest warrants list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_by_the_International_Criminal_Court

There are no Israelis there.

Oh I knew that mate, here is the actual list from the ICC website:

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Situations+and+Cases/

I just wanted her to admit her claims were false and that she was a propagandrist.

[Rosewin]

Is this the arrest warrants list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_by_the_International_Criminal_Court

There are no Israelis there.

This seems to have been overlooked.

The list includes all individuals for whom the court has issued a public arrest warrant or summons as of July 2009.

The Goldstone Report was not complete till September 2009.

Also if Israel does not have war criminals pray tell why three names on that list already have had issues because of their war criminal status?

Because Israel harbors war criminals.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Pseudo Intellectual]

This seems to have been overlooked.

The Goldstone Report was not complete till September 2009.

So show us that Israelis are indeed wanted by the ICC for war crimes.

[Moon Monkey]

This seems to have been overlooked.

The Goldstone Report was not complete till September 2009.

Also if Israel does not have war criminals pray tell why three names on that list already have had issues because of their war criminal status?

Because Israel harbors war criminals.

Why do you keep linking the same articles that have nothing at all to do with the ICC, or anything else really. One simple reports calls from an anonymous human rights organisation for arrests on alledged crimes and the other is a London solicitor saying Olmert could face arrest. Neither are tangible in any way.

The way you talk about Israel and its wrongdoings you would think it would be easy to find an actual ICC indictment. Why are you having so much trouble ?

BTW Have you accepted that your claim that 'more israelis face ICC arrest warrants than Hamas' was false ?

[Karlis]

Folks, I know everyone here has their own key points of view, and that is as it should be of course. However (and only because I started this thread) may I ask you to concentrate on the OP in this thread, please?

This is in the main OP outline:

Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal.

These are the points I highlighted from the article I posted in the OP:

... former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal.’

... the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

... why did Israel even have to resort to blockade?

In future posts for this thread, would everyone please address only the above points?

Thanks to one and all,

Karlis

[Rosewin]

Why are you having so much trouble ?

I am not even looking.

As previously stated if the provided sources are not enough to satisfy anyone they can simply disagree or actually disprove that those already listed are not wanted, either or.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Moon Monkey]

I am not even looking.

As previously stated if the provided sources are not enough to satisfy anyone they can simply disagree or actually disprove that those already listed are not wanted, either or.

Not looking, ah that explains why you have been clutching at those unrelated articles you keep posting.

Pseudo Intellectual linked you to the ICC wiki, I linked you to the ICC arrest warrants page.....none of them contained any israeli on any list. So consider your claims disproven.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Moon Monkey

[Rosewin]

The ICC wiki was dated before the Goldstone Report was even complete.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you, Rosewin. So prove that Israelis are wanted by the ICC for war crimes.

[Rosewin]

Another example of an Israeli war criminal, related to their last offensive in Gaza (Cast Lead), and another country which does not want them, South Africa. He was investigated by the ICC and had to turn tail and run to avoid arrest and trial. I suppose though if we go by the version some wish none of this would exist, no ICC, no arrest warrants for Israeli war criminals, but that reality is quite different than the one we presently share.

The ICC began looking into Benjamin's case after receiving material from pro-Palestinian organizations in South Africa. The material included a transcript of an interview Benjamin gave to the web site Bloomberg.com, in which the officer recounted his involvement in legal consultations with the IDF ahead of army operations.

..

The pro-Palestinian organizations promptly asked South African state prosecutors to open an investigation into suspicions that Benjamin had committed war crimes in Gaza. To avoid a potential confrontation with local authorities, Benjamin left South Africa several days earlier than he had planned.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/icc-may-try-idf-officer-in-wake-of-goldstone-gaza-report-1.7353

Edited June 11, 2010 by Rosewin

[Moon Monkey]

The ICC wiki was dated before the Goldstone Report was even complete.

Ok so what about the ICC themselves, I presume that will be good enough for you as it was updated today. Here it is again:

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Situations+and+Cases/

[Karlis]

Hi Rosewin, Moon Monkey and everyone,

Could you please read my Post #93 before posting again?

Thanks,

Karlis