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Karlis

Disarming Israel

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keithisco

Bulldozing Palestinian homes and giving the land to your own supporters - is HATRED

Using white phosphor bombs against a civilian population - IS HATRED

Forcing 1,5 million civilians to "diet" - IS HATRED

Allowing 65% of children to become seriously malnourished - IS HATRED

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Watchers

Bulldozing Palestinian homes and giving the land to your own supporters - is HATRED

This was because those HOMES that they're bulldozing were being used to shoot rockets into the neighboring Israeli neighborhoods. Also, if the Palestinians in those homes are continuously taking potshots and causing tension so close, it's better to move them so that less people are killed. This is not hatred, it's common sense.

Using white phosphor bombs against a civilian population - IS HATRED

When taken out of context, yes. But when they're used against a large angry rioting crowd carrying clubs, bats, rocks, knives and guns, the story changes a bit. Again, this is not hatred, this is riot control and self defense. If I was in their shoes, I would've unloaded gunfire on them until they dispersed. Using tear gas and phosphorous bombs is playing nice when you're up against an enemy like the ones in Gaza.Again, this is not hatred but self defense and riot control.

Forcing 1,5 million civilians to "diet" - IS HATRED

Previous aid ships have smuggled in arms to support the fighting going on in Gaza. Stopping the aid ships which could be smuggling in more weaponry is common sense, and one of the most pacifist things that Israel can do. These people need to get it through their head and simply LEAVE. Quit fighting, pack up their bags, and LEAVE. The only reason they're staying, and the only reason they're being supported by the rest of the Arabs is so they can "stick it to Israel".

Allowing 65% of children to become seriously malnourished - IS HATRED

Since when did the economic well-being of another "state" become Israel's problem? This isn't hatred, this is stupidity and lack of intelligent thinking on the locals part. They should've left LONG ago if they wanted any sort of decent life. Maybe instead of sending grenades, knives, ammunition and guns as "aid" countries should send only bread, water, milk, and bandages.

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Rosewin

This was because those HOMES that they're bulldozing were being used to shoot rockets into the neighboring Israeli neighborhoods. Also, if the Palestinians in those homes are continuously taking potshots and causing tension so close, it's better to move them so that less people are killed. This is not hatred, it's common sense.

This is not an accurate picture of the settler situation, at all. Even Obama has now reversed American positions and has joined the choir of voices demand Israel does something about it.

Then to discount the violence attached to the settler community. They killed the peacemaker Rabin showing their true colors, they are a people of violence.

But wow if what Watchers is saying is true that means plenty of potshots to the tune of near a half a million settlers illegally stealing land.

Nearly 500,000 settlers live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, even though settlement on occupied land is against international law.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/14/israeli-settler-accused-killing-palestinian

When taken out of context, yes. But when they're used against a large angry rioting crowd carrying clubs, bats, rocks, knives and guns, the story changes a bit. Again, this is not hatred, this is riot control and self defense. If I was in their shoes, I would've unloaded gunfire on them until they dispersed. Using tear gas and phosphorous bombs is playing nice when you're up against an enemy like the ones in Gaza.Again, this is not hatred but self defense and riot control.

It is a violation of international law to employ white phosphorus, period. A view that promotes lawlessness and rogue activity would condone violating international law but there is no justification. This is why there are international arrest warrants for war criminals in Israel, the Interpol can enforce them, as well as other nations if these Israelis travel abroad, and when caught they will be tried at the ICC.

I have a feeling the 'riot' excuse is not going to be convincing there, it certainly is not here.

Previous aid ships have smuggled in arms to support the fighting going on in Gaza. Stopping the aid ships which could be smuggling in more weaponry is common sense, and one of the most pacifist things that Israel can do. These people need to get it through their head and simply LEAVE. Quit fighting, pack up their bags, and LEAVE. The only reason they're staying, and the only reason they're being supported by the rest of the Arabs is so they can "stick it to Israel".

Do you have any sources regarding previous ships smuggling aid? Your view also advocates a whole group leave? Desire for ethnic cleansing, in other words?

Since when did the economic well-being of another "state" become Israel's problem? This isn't hatred, this is stupidity and lack of intelligent thinking on the locals part. They should've left LONG ago if they wanted any sort of decent life. Maybe instead of sending grenades, knives, ammunition and guns as "aid" countries should send only bread, water, milk, and bandages.

'aid' countries? Is this what Israel is calling the rest of the world now?

Obama recently signed off on another 400 million in aid for Palestine. This is in addition to the 500 million already signed off for for the fiscal year of 2010. 9 million so far.

Edited by Rosewin

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TheResearcher

It is a violation of international law to employ white phosphorus, period. A view that promotes lawlessness and rogue activity would condone violating international law but there is no justification. This is why there are international arrest warrants for war criminals in Israel, the Interpol can enforce them, as well as other nations if these Israelis travel abroad, and when caught they will be tried at the ICC.

Actually no, it's not always a violation of law to employ it. Only in certain circumstances. I'm not making a point, just thought you should know before throwing periods around

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Rosewin

We were discussing its use as a weapon so my response was in that context but I can see how clarification might be necessary.

Edited by Rosewin

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TheResearcher

We were discussing its use as a weapon so my response was in that context but I can see how clarification might be necessary.

Indeed, but even using it as a weapon is not explicitly banned, assuming the targets are combatants. Like I said I'm not making a point, just trying to show it's much less clear cut than your posts would suggest.

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Rosewin

My apologies, it seems you are correct, in that it can be used as a weapon against military vehicles for example (I am guessing if a solider is in that vehicle it is fair game?) but never in civilian areas.

I have yet to find anything allowing its use directly on combatants where there are no civilians but will take your word for it.

Edited by Rosewin

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Watchers

My apologies, it seems you are correct, in that it can be used as a weapon against military vehicles for example (I am guessing if a solider is in that vehicle it is fair game?) but never in civilian areas.

I have yet to find anything allowing its use directly on combatants where there are no civilians but will take your word for it.

It ceases to be a civilian area when the entire populace is up in arms against you. Quit trying to draw fine lines around what's going on in an area when you don't even know who the enemy is half the time, and almost anyone could be hiding a gun under their shawl. Get real, the people fighting over there are fighting to save their own lives as well--but at least the Israelis are doing it the right way and wearing uniforms like men, and not hiding under civilian clothes like a bunch of evil, cowardly scum.

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Rosewin

It ceases to be a civilian area when the entire populace is up in arms against you.

Is this a fact?

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eqgumby

On the military side, Hamas launched numerous suicide bombings against Israelis, the first in April 1993.[17] Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005, and renounced them in April 2006.[18] In recent years Hamas has mainly attacked Israel with rocket and mortar fire.[19][20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

This is what we are dealing with.

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Rosewin

On the military side, Hamas launched numerous suicide bombings against Israelis, the first in April 1993.[17] Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005, and renounced them in April 2006.[18] In recent years Hamas has mainly attacked Israel with rocket and mortar fire.[19][20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

This is what we are dealing with.

We are dealing with both Hamas and the Israeli government. The mere fact that between the two Israel has more war criminals, is causing more sustained harm to humanity, and is a general overall threat with nuclear weapons is why they are now in the process of being dealt with. A nuclear free Israel is the goal, they should never have had them to begin with.

Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches.

-Ariel Sharon

Israel must be disarmed. She shall not be allowed to light the world on fire.

Edited by Rosewin

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eqgumby

We are dealing with both Hamas and the Israeli government. The mere fact that between the two Israel has more war criminals, is causing more sustained harm to humanity, and is a general overall threat with nuclear weapons is why they are now in the process of being dealt with. A nuclear free Israel is the goal, they should never have had them to begin with.

Israel must be disarmed. She shall not be allowed to light the world on fire.

:lol:

You mean like this?

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/mickeymousehamaspalestineterrorismrachelcorrieisraeladl48130507.html

"Farfour" and his co-host, a young girl, talk about global Islam ruling the world as well as the need to annihilate the Jews and be victorious over America. An Israel watchdog group, Palestinian Media Watch, monitored and reported on the program.

post-40427-127619467481_thumb.jpg

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Rosewin

Like this. This is part of what needs to stop.

92 Palestinian children were killed (fortunately, not a single Israeli child was killed by Palestinians, despite the Qassams). One-fifth of the Palestinians killed were children and teens - a disproportionate, almost unprecedented number. The Jewish year of 5767. Almost 100 children, who were alive and playing last New Year, didn't survive to see this one.

...

We set out each week in the footsteps of the fighters, in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, trying to document the deeds of Israel Defense Forces soldiers, Border Police officers, Shin Bet security service investigators and Civil Administration personnel - the mighty occupation army that leaves behind in its wake horrific killing and destruction, this year as every year, for four decades.

...

Abdullah al-Zakh identified half of the body of his son Mahmoud, in the morgue refrigerator of Shifa Hospital in Gaza, by the boy's belt and the socks on his feet. This was shortly before last Rosh Hashanah. The next day, when the Israel Defense Forces "successfully" completed Operation Locked Kindergarten, as it was called, leaving behind 22 dead and a razed neighborhood, and left Sajiyeh in Gaza, the bereaved father found the remaining parts of the body and brought them for a belated burial.

Mahmoud was 14 when he died. He was killed three days before the start of the school year.

...

Families were killed in their sleep, or while riding on donkeys, or working in the fields. Operation Locked Kindergarten and Operation Summer Rains. Remember? Five children were killed in the first operation, with the dreadful name. For a week, the people of Sajiyeh lived in fear the likes of which Sderot residents have never experienced - not to belittle their anxiety, that is.

The day after Rosh Hashanah we traveled to Rafah. Dam Hamad, 14, had been killed in her sleep, in her mother's arms, by an Israeli rocket strike that sent a concrete pillar crashing down on her head. She was the only daughter of her paralyzed mother, her whole world.

...

In mid-November, a few days after the bombardment of Beit Hanoun - remember that? - we arrived in the battered and bleeding town: 22 killed in a moment, 11 shells dropped on a densely packed town. Islam, 14, sat there dressed in black, grieving for her eight relatives that had been killed, including her mother and grandmother. Those disabled by this bombardment didn't get to go to Alyn.

Two days before the shelling of Beit Hanoun, our forces also fired a missile that hit the minibus transporting children to the Indira Gandhi kindergarten in Beit Lahia. Two kids, passersby, were killed on the spot. The teacher, Najwa Khalif, died a few days later. She was wounded in clear view of her 20 small pupils, who were sitting in the minibus. After her death, the children drew a picture: a row of children lying bleeding, their teacher in the front, and an Israeli plane bombing them. At the Indira Gandhi kindergarten, we had to bid good-bye to Gaza, too: Since then, we haven't been able to cross into the Strip.

But the children have come to us. In November, 31 children were killed in Gaza. One of them, Ayman al-Mahdi, died in Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer, where he had been rushed in grave condition. Only his uncle was permitted to stay with him during his final days. A fifth-grader, Ayman had been sitting with friends on a bench on a street in Jabalya, right by his school. A bullet fired from a tank struck him. He was just 10 years old.

IDF troops killed children in the West Bank, too. Jamil Jabaji, a boy who tended horses in the new Askar refugee camp, was shot in the head. He was 14 when he was killed, last December. He and his friends were throwing rocks at the armored vehicle that passed by the camp, located near Nablus. The driver provoked the children, slowing down and speeding up, slowing down and speeding up, until finally a soldier got out, aimed at the boy's head and fired. Jamil's horses were left in their stable, and his family was left to mourn.

And what did 16-year-old Taha al-Jawi do to get himself killed? The IDF claimed that he tried to sabotage the barbed-wire fence surrounding the abandoned Atarot airport; his friends said he was just playing soccer and had gone to chase after the ball. Whatever the circumstances, the response from the soldiers was quick and decisive: a bullet in the leg that caused him to bleed to death, lying in a muddy ditch by the side of the road. Not a word of regret, not a word of condemnation from the IDF spokesman, when we asked for a comment. Live fire directed at unarmed children who weren't endangering anyone, with no prior warning.

Abir Aramin was even younger; she was just 11. The daughter of an activist in the Combatants for Peace organization, in January she left her school in Anata and was on the way to buy candy in a little shop. She was fired upon from a Border Police vehicle. Bassam, her father, told us back then with bloodshot eyes and in a strangled voice: "I told myself that I don't want to take revenge. Revenge will be for this 'hero,' who was so 'threatened' by my daughter that he shot and killed her, to stand trial for it." But just a few days ago the authorities announced that the case was being closed: The Border Police apparently acted appropriately.

In Nablus, we documented the use of children as human shields - the use of the so-called "neighbor procedure" - involving an 11-year-old girl, a 12-year-old boy and a 15-year-old boy. So what if the High Court of Justice has outlawed it? We also recorded the story of the death of baby Khaled, whose parents, Sana and Daoud Fakih, tried to rush him to the hospital in the middle of the night, a time when Palestinian babies apparently mustn't get sick: The baby died at the checkpoint.

In Kafr al-Shuhada (the "martyrs' village") south of Jenin, in March, 15-year-old Ahmed Asasa was fleeing from soldiers who had entered the village. A sniper's bullet caught him in the neck.

Bushra Bargis hadn't even left her home. In late April she was studying for a big test, notebooks in hand, pacing around her room in the Jenin refugee camp in the early evening, when a sniper shot her in the forehead from quite far away. Her bloodstained notebooks bore witness to her final moments.

And what about the unborn babies? They weren't safe either. A bullet in the back of Maha Qatuni, a woman who was seven months pregnant and got up during the night to protect her children in their home, struck her fetus in the womb, shattering its head. The wounded mother lay in the Rafidiya Hospital in Nablus, hooked up to numerous tubes. She was going to name the baby Daoud. Does killing a fetus count as murder? And how "old" was the deceased? He was certainly the youngest of the many children Israel killed in the past year.

http://www.haaretz.com/magazine/friday-supplement/twilight-zone-the-children-of-5767-1.230132

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Papagiorgio

We are dealing with both Hamas and the Israeli government. The mere fact that between the two Israel has more war criminals, is causing more sustained harm to humanity, and is a general overall threat with nuclear weapons is why they are now in the process of being dealt with. A nuclear free Israel is the goal, they should never have had them to begin with.

The bolded is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

Israel doesn't actively target civilians, Hamas does. I'm not saying Israel hasn't killed any civilians, but there is a difference between collateral damage and the willful targeting of civilians.

Every time Hamas fires a rocket into Israel they target civilians. So every time they fire those rockets they are guilty of a war crime.

Hamas soldiers never wear uniforms. Every time they perform a military operation in civilian clothes they are committing a war crime.

Every member of Hamas is a war criminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

Look at Common Article 2:

The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation "accepts and applies the provisions" of the Conventions.

I doubt Hamas "accepts and applies the provisions" of the Conventions. So Israel is not bound by the Geneva Convention when dealing with them.

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eqgumby

How many of those "children" were carrying guns and/or explosives furnished by Hamas? How many of them died with a Hamas member huddled behind them, using them as a shield?

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Rosewin
Every member of Hamas is a war criminal.

This is why the ICC has more warrants out against Israelis than Hamas? Warrants that can be carried out by Interpol? "Currently sought war criminals" with actual warrants for them is a bit different than simply claiming everyone in this group or that one is a 'war criminal'.

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eqgumby

This is why the ICC has more warrants out against Israelis than Hamas? Warrants that can be carried out by Interpol? "Currently sought war criminals" with actual warrants for them is a bit different than simply claiming everyone in this group or that one is a 'war criminal'.

Who is the ICC going to swear out a warrant against in the Hamas military wing? THEY ALL WEAR MASKS! DUH!

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Rosewin

Who is the ICC going to swear out a warrant against in the Hamas military wing? THEY ALL WEAR MASKS! DUH!

Let us be glad Goldstone did not believe this to be the limit of the investigation which led to international war criminal arrest warrants for Hamas members too. By far Israel though has racked up more crimes against humanity during their conflicts. Saddam thought the UN would eventually go away too. Binyamin Netanyahu might think this as well.

Edited by Rosewin

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eqgumby

Let us be glad Goldstone did not believe this to be the limit of the investigation which led to international war criminal arrest warrants for Hamas members too. By far Israel though has racked up more crimes against humanity during their conflicts. Saddam thought the UN would eventually go away too. Binyamin Netanyahu might think this as well.

Says you. EVERY military action carried out by Hamas is a warcrime. EVERY ONE.

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MichaelW
By far Israel though has racked up more crimes against humanity during their conflicts.

Can you prove this? Can you prove this in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973? They were wars with no massacres of civillians whatsoever. Just so you know, Israel has never fired the first shot.

It's statments like these which prove that propaganda really does work.

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Watchers

Can you prove this? Can you prove this in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973? They were wars with no massacres of civillians whatsoever. Just so you know, Israel has never fired the first shot.

It's statments like these which prove that propaganda really does work.

Agreed...it get's almost absurd when statements like Rosewin's actually get stated as facts, and are BELIEVED. I don't know if it's simply an uneducated populace that succumbs to such absurdity, brainwashing, or simply targeted propaganda. Maybe a combination of all three. Either way, it's a simple fact that Hamas actively HIDES BEHIND civilians, DOES NOT wear uniforms, and ACTIVELY targets CIVILIANS on a daily basis. Israel may be more powerful, but they are on the side of righteousness. They do NOT hide behind civilians, they protect their civilians. They WEAR uniforms and actively target enemy combatants. However, if civilians get harmed in the process, that's collateral damage, however sad it may be. There's a big difference.

Hamas = Evil, cowardly terrorists.

Israel = Righteous, honorable defenders.

Edited by Watchers

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Rosewin

Hamas is also a problem. It is just that their war crimes do not lead to as many dead children. What plainer fact is that in this conflict?

Yes, Israel has more war criminals, internationally sought, within its borders. It is a state that harbors war criminals. The worst of the worst of humanity.

All the world wants is to see Israel's government pursue different policies.

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Watchers

Hamas is also a problem. It is just that their war crimes do not lead to as many dead children. What plainer fact is that in this conflict?

Yes, Israel has more war criminals, internationally sought, within its borders. It is a state that harbors war criminals. The worst of the worst of humanity.

All the world wants is to see Israel's government pursue different policies.

Where do you get this fact of more dead children? Please show me this.

And no, all the world wants is to stop Israel from defending itself. If Hamas leaves the Gaza strip, there would be no problem to begin with. Israel has a tiny speck of land to call their own. The Arabs have 6.2 million square miles. (99% of which was given to them by Britain and France). They need to simply get the hell off of Israeli land. It's bad enough they were given 99% of the land from the fall of the Ottoman Empire. There are only two reasons they are staying there: (1) To stick it to Israel and cause conflict to sway the world against Israel. (2) Because Israel has made the area economically prosperous when the rest of the Arab land has gone to ****.

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Moon Monkey

This is why the ICC has more warrants out against Israelis than Hamas? Warrants that can be carried out by Interpol? "Currently sought war criminals" with actual warrants for them is a bit different than simply claiming everyone in this group or that one is a 'war criminal'.

Well to start with the ICC can only take action against a national of a signitory state, the palestinians are not a state, although the PA have tried to allow them to operate in the West Bank and Gaza but as yet the jurisdiction has been ratified.

Can you provide this list of israelis who have had ICC warrants issued against them please. Thank you.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Leonardo

Can you prove this? Can you prove this in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973? They were wars with no massacres of civillians whatsoever. Just so you know, Israel has never fired the first shot.

It's statments like these which prove that propaganda really does work.

While I am not defending any one side of this debate, I would like to point out that your knowledge of the conflicts above, Michael, appears to be somewhat lacking.

I will refer you to the Wiki links:

The 1956 War (Suez Crisis)

The 1967 War

The 1973 War (Yom Kippur War)

Note that, in the two earlier conflicts it was Israel that initiated the 'shooting war'.

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