Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration l

[Rosewin]

Control the borders but do not take in people to work then turn around and make it difficult for them to become citizens or forcefully deport them when times are bad. Not when they were wanted or needed by American companies to begin with when times were good.

They would not be illegal if the process was not intentionally made so expensive. If it was easier to become a citizen they would and prefer to be legal. Who would not want to be American?

Do you really believe they wish to 'use' this country and then leave, or 'turn it into' Mexico, or 'try and not pay' taxes? They want to be here, are escaping Mexico, and want to contribute but also have full benefits and citizenship. Their children who go to school here think, talk, and dress like me or you, like Americans. To come and work hard here as third-rate 'subjects of the golden kingdom' is better than where they are coming from but they deserve better if America is using them for labor.

All countries have a right to control their immigration policies. We are on the course of deciding ours and also what to do with our established immigrant population...again.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Rosewin

[Vampwitchenstein]

There will be a variety of answers of how to self identify but that does not negate the fact that we are a unique demographic within the America.

No, my direct ancestor from my fathers line immigrated from Germany to Texas in the 1800s but since he was Catholic he married into a Mexican family instead of associating with the non-Catholic, my ethnic group is 'Mexican' though we are different than Mexicans from Mexico we are in many ways cousins.

Hispanic is a term that covers many who speak the same language, Spanish, good for marketing, but it does not really represent those of us whose primarily language is English, I know Spanish but it is not my primary language. It also attempts to toss in those of various races such as mestizos and mulattos under one hat, we all have different foods and dialects. The equivalent term would be 'Anglic' for all who speak English regardless if you are from America, the UK, Jamaica, Singapore, Mexican-Americans, etc...

Caucasian? I have lots of Caucasian blood, at least from appearance, but my ethnicity is still 'Mexican'.

It is OK, not everyone understands, but Obama is not African-American in any sense of the word and does not really share that culture except through marrying into it. His mother was white, his father from Africa proper, and he grew up in various cultures, he is fully a product of this age. He is Black. He is American. He is Cosmopolitan. He is not African-American. I know people do not like hyphenated Americans but those of us who have them, Mexican-Americans, know we are different. We all get along though.

Every country has a right to decide their immigration policy.

That is a problem and there are various solutions.

The only other flag I will fly besides the American one is the Texan one. Those who wish this was Mexico are simply misguided. Our ethnic group has spread but historically is concentrated between the states of Texas and California. As stated, we are quite patriotic and loyal, but if these laws have aims which will adversely impact our demographic (English speaking Mexicans) then do not expect nothing less than our interests on being to maintain our presence within this region and a strong desire to dominate its social, political, economic, and cultural makeup.

We love America but there is a historical distrust. It would not do well for ethnic tensions to further increase because we are so close to each other in many ways. All of that would be fractured if we were not able to trust each other because some yahoos decide to start killing ethnic Mexicans.

I appreciate your honest and rational (read; non-aggressive) responses. You are a very level headed guy, always have been on here, along with very passionate.

It does bother me how you allude to maintaining your 'separateness' and even 'domination' of the items in bolded statement.

I would think working towards equal, honest and law abiding beneficial ends for everyone would be the goal.

[Indiogene]

Nice statement, Rosewin (read the above post) and she proved the loyality of Mexican-Americans in the USA aren't about to change nationalities nor return to their ethnic homeland under a corrupt government. Sadly, the history of Hispanics in the Southwest faced discrimination and threats of deportation without proving their legal residency is a sad reminder of the anger and division over the immigration issue all over the US.

Many immigrants from Mexico, Latin America and Asian countries are in all 50 states, but those bordering Arizona and Cal. like Nevada, Utah, Oregon and Washington are said to be overwhelmed by the illegal kind. I doubt they wish to move in California with an economic death advisory and the possibility of laws enacted to keep illegal immigrants out of the state. Also Texas is not recommended by the current situation of things.

[Indiogene]

Control the borders but do not take in people to work then turn around and make it difficult for them to become citizens or forcefully deport them when times are bad. Not when they were wanted or needed by American companies to begin with when times were good.

They would not be illegal if the process was not intentionally made so expensive. If it was easier to become a citizen they would and prefer to be legal. Who would not want to be American?

Do you really believe they wish to 'use' this country and then leave, or 'turn it into' Mexico, or 'try and not pay' taxes? They want to be here, are escaping Mexico, and want to contribute but also have full benefits and citizenship. Their children who go to school here think, talk, and dress like me or you, like Americans. To come and work hard here as third-rate 'subjects of the golden kingdom' is better than where they are coming from but they deserve better if America is using them for labor.

All countries have a right to control their immigration policies. We are on the course of deciding ours and also what to do with our established immigrant population...again.

I agree, Rosewin on what mostly has been said. Countries like Mexico and Canada has laws and regulations to keep out illegal or undocumented immigration, so does the US. The best solution is a guest-worker program or a better screening system to keep out criminals, our nation's choice of immigrants are based on professional skills in our much needed occupations like medical and pharmaceutial, white-collar technical offices and public educators. But we keep receiving lower-paid jobs in agriculture, janitorial and services once performed primarily by American citizens, white or black or brown.

[Rosewin]

I appreciate your honest and rational (read; non-aggressive) responses. You are a very level headed guy, always have been on here, along with very passionate.

It does bother me how you allude to maintaining your 'separateness' and even 'domination' of the items in bolded statement.

I would think working towards equal, honest and law abiding beneficial ends for everyone would be the goal.

No one wishes to be separate and everyone recognizes how great it is here in America. We all want to be one. It is laws like this that are making a certain sector, a very fragile one at that, and making them separate. We then as a nation go through cycles, where we treat certain communities based on their population type awfully or just neglect them totally(<50s/80s), then feel bad so give them special rights to help them socially (60s/90s), then later we want to take them away and suddenly claim we are all Americans so why should they be treated any different (70s/00s). I guess 10's is going to be treating people awfully and different again.

As far as the statement you placed in bold I would have also emphasized the first part of the sentence because it is an important part of the equation. Clearly that statement is fueled by fear and also an ethnic consciousness. People are afraid. There has already been an increase in hate crimes against Hispanics in general but more so Mexicans regardless of citizenship status.

According to hate crime statistics published annually by the FBI, anti-Latino hate crimes rose by almost 35% between 2003 and 2006, the latest year for which statistics are available.

What follows is a representative sampling of some of the more egregious examples of physical and psychological violence waged against Latinos over the past two-and-a-half years. The perpetrators range from racist skinheads to rogue Border Patrol agents to otherwise everyday citizens who took it upon themselves to repel an "invader," terrorize a "criminal alien," or exterminate a "cockroach."

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2007/winter/immigration-backlash

I trust our police and government but I do not necessarily trust all the citizens of this country especially since we are both in two wars and barely coming out of a terrible recession that might have knocked back many from where there were at before. The police and government would not be able to do much if suddenly these hate crimes turned into more organized forms of violence. A minority of the supporters of these laws, not the majority, do so out of nationalist tendencies, they simply want others with different cultures out of the country, in turn when laws like this are passed it legitimizes and intensifies their xenophobia. If more laws like this are passed chances are citizen groups will begin to go out looking for illegals to help in the effort of pushing them out of communities, regions, and even whole States.

Some have the desire for this, by nice or vice, hook or crook, they will pass laws and who knows what else.

The greatest concern is for recently established immigrant communities in places such as Georgia, South Carolina, and Wisconsin for example. These communities are especially more fragile since they are detached from the Southwest where there are higher concentrations of Mexican ethnics overall. If violence ensues there it will not be long before it returns here and violence of this sort does not check for papers but just shoots at colors. Such violence driven by hate can then turn onto the elderly, women, and children. Then it becomes about revenge and reprisals or stronger forms of ethnic cleansing.

If suddenly English speaking Mexicans, American citizens, are singled out in this fashion, what choice would we have but to try and protect our culture? Our culture of course entails speaking English, watching American television, listening to American radio, going to see American movies. These are the things we will preserve, we do not want to be driven back to Mexico, that is not our land. We will fight for our way of life from anyone wishing to take it away from us, all people would if given the chance, but who wants to see this kind of violence? Not me. A few do and that is all it takes to ruin it for the rest of us.

Just like in Bosnia they never thought anything could happen along ethnic lines (they are all the same race there) but it did. All it takes is a few organized extremists and old memories and hurts are remembered and new ones are made and neighbors kill neighbors and then we have to live with it and forgive each other once it is all done. I do not think anything can happen like that either but I would not be surprised if so many Americans support this law to push out a whole population, the people without the papers. What else would they be willing to do to achieve their dreamland without immigrants or those of different cultures? How far are some willing to go?

I fully expect this land to stay America though. We all work together in so many places, Mexicans, white, blacks, down here we are one people. It is those places where they are not used to this sort of multiculturalism, the Midwest and Deep South especially, that pose the greatest threat to increase ethnic tensions which would spill across the rest of the country. Unlike the past so many citizens have firearms now which could be our freedom to bear turning into a factor for domestic disturbances.

I agree, Rosewin on what mostly has been said. Countries like Mexico and Canada has laws and regulations to keep out illegal or undocumented immigration, so does the US. The best solution is a guest-worker program or a better screening system to keep out criminals, our nation's choice of immigrants are based on professional skills in our much needed occupations like medical and pharmaceutial, white-collar technical offices and public educators. But we keep receiving lower-paid jobs in agriculture, janitorial and services once performed primarily by American citizens, white or black or brown.

The last time they had a huge overhaul was in 1986 with the passage of the Rodino-Simpson Bill. It called for a guest program for any new immigrants, amnesty for those who had been here prior to January 1982, made it harder for companies to hire immigrants without documentation, etc...did it help?

What needs to be done in tandem to such a bill is actual enforcement of the border. Not the violent one that some desire or imagine. No we control the borders through the companies. During the Depression many towns simply could not hire people and told others looking for work to move on. They were economic refugees in their own country. What is too stop companies from doing the same today to economic refugees from Mexico? Those wanting to escape the violence of their Drug War are also refugees. They are not defined as such by the media but they are.

Are illegals moving in and taking away jobs from others in some communities? Who is the one that does not mind the immigrants moving in to begin with thus creating a labor surplus so in the end they can pay everyone less and make more profits? The companies. If they were not hiring others would not come.

This country has to take responsibility of its own problems. If kicking out the population with the weakest rights, weakest benefits, and weakest security is the proposed solution then that is not going to change much really. Others will come because in the end some companies want to pay the lowest they can. This is also partially the reason why the school systems do not care to actually teach the children and our national skill set is not being upgraded or maintained compared to other nations who are producing more doctors and engineers. We have a deficit in those specialties that requires immigrants from those nations with superior skill sets to come work in positions here. The main reason this happens is because many companies do not want an educated populace, easier to control, and you can pay the bare minimum to get most of the work done.

The decline of the middle class will only be in favor of these companies but also exacerbate all these issues including ethnic ones. If one stops to think about it the true problem with immigration is really a problem of labor.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Rosewin

[Wickian]

Illegal immigration should not be something we accept, it's a problem that needs to be fixed. Whatever benefits or problems they bring is beside the point when the mere act of being here is criminal. The fact that 12 million non-citizens can so easily enter and live in the country is a severe national security threat.

The first step our government should take is to actually secure the border to reduce the flood of illegal immigration to a trickle(it will always happen, but with the proper defenses it can be greatly reduced). After that, every non-attached illegal(those without American-born children under their supervision) that is discovered should be deported, not imprisoned. With a secure border, the threat of simply coming back over would almost disappear.

I understand that most of them just want is a better life, but like it or not they cannot simply come over as they please and flaunt the law. Over a million people are already allowed to legally immigrate every year.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Figuring out that the law in Arizona will ultimately just single out one group of people there is not exactly evidence but clearly perceptions are usually based more on sentiment than evidence.

In other words, you have no evidence, but you feel the law is bad.

[Junkers88]

They would not be illegal if the process was not intentionally made so expensive. If it was easier to become a citizen they would and prefer to be legal. Who would not want to be American?

I tried to find cost estimates on this and couldn't find any. Do you happen to have a link?

What I did find was this.

Generally -- very generally -- you may not become a naturalized U.S. citizen unless you:

1. Are at least 18 years old and a lawful permanent resident ("green card" holder);

2. Have resided continuously in the United States, having been lawfully admitted for permanent residence, for five years immediately preceding the date you filed your application for naturalization, or

3. Have, after having been removed from conditional permanent resident status, based upon your marriage to a U.S. citizen, having resided in the United States for one year after the date the condition was removed;

4. Have resided continuously in the United States at all times after your application to the time and date of your admission for citizenship;

5. Have, during all periods of time referred to above, been and still are a person of good moral character;

6. Have no outstanding deportation or removal order and no pending deportation or removal proceeding;

7. Have the ability to read, write, speak, and understand simple words and phrases in English;

8. Have knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of U.S. history and government;

9. Are attached to, and can support, the principles of the U.S. Constitution and can swear allegiance to the United States.

Looks to me like most of the people that are here illegaly should be able to meet those criteria. Of course that means that the person in question would have had to enter here legally in the first place and care enough about this country to learn about, and declare allegiance to, the United States.

I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done. Apply for a green card, enter the country legally and work for 5 years, apply for citizenship, *bang* you're a citizen and I for one am darn happy to welcome you to the nation.

http://www.visaus.com/citizen.html

[randym23]

The only people that should be concerned with ANY tightening of the US immigration policy are the ones that are here illegally.

As this article indicates, the only ones fleeing the "Tighten Law" are the ones that shouldn't be there to start with. Those who ARE legal aren't going to just pack up and more away from jobs, homes, family and friends. Just the ones that shouldn't be here to start with.

If EVERY state in our Union had this kind of law being enforced, the Feds wouldn't have to worry about being responcible for catching and returning illegals.

yeah and the germans thought it would just be the jews......

police are human beings, where there are human beings there is corruption, sweeping powers like this invite abuse

[asc.rudeboy]

DELETED DEW TO MISTAKE

Edited June 17, 2010 by asc.rudeboy

[asc.rudeboy]

Wow . I have always wondered who here was Rasist,Now I know.

for one,ppl can not be pulled over or detained for race alone,,,THEY HAVE TO BE PULLED OVER OR DETAINED FOR SOME OFFENSE WORTHY OF A STOP,THEN IS THEY ARE ILLEGAL THEY ARE SUBJECT TO IMMIGRATION LAWS...this is not a free racial profile card. you have to do something to be stopped for..

and how dare Mexico say our laws are raciest and unfair when their immigration laws are far tougher..

http://www.washingto...-than-arizonas/

Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," violate Mexican law, are not "physically or mentally healthy" or lack the "necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents.

sounds like they need to reform their laws before they think about teling us what to do...NOW WE KNOW WHO ARE THE REAL RACIEST....

Edited June 17, 2010 by asc.rudeboy

[asc.rudeboy]

AND to top it all of the law says nothing about illegal Mexicans its says illegal immigrants that includes ALLLLLLLLL illegal immigrants..no race is singled out.

[Orkid]

OMG!.. are you people even reading what you write?.. GOOD?... about damn time?... do you know what ilegals go through if being caught?... maybe that is why people who do have legal rights (hispanic or any other who werent born in the US) run to another state cause they are connected to those who are not, might get deported anyways...do you know the families that try to pass that you can judge them?... they just want a decent life for their kids or want to start one because where they live, dont have that oportunity.. LAND OF THE FREE...ha ha ha...

I know, its getting over populated and the real 'americans' have less jobs because of the 'beaners' and other 'ilegal aliens'... yeah..

yes if they come in ilegally they then try to become legal.. but need time in the US because that is the law.. its not easy for them..

I dont know the reason behind all of the immigrants, but its not ilegal for them to want a good life!.. it is just a joke.. all that talk about the land of the free and your dreams coming true..its bull because of the discrimination they go through.. if an american was treated that way surely everyone would think differently... HOW CAN THEY DO THAT TO AN AMERICAN!?..

i hope no one feels offended it wasnt my intention.. (probably some will)..

Edited June 17, 2010 by Orkid

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Um, actually, illegal immigration is a crime. Foreigners don't have a right to live in (or even enter) America.

[Orkid]

Um, actually, illegal immigration is a crime. Foreigners don't have a right to live in (or even enter) America.

you are right, unless they have a visa.. etc etc.. I know...

But that wasnt my point.. they just want a good life...

[Orkid]

AND to top it all of the law says nothing about illegal Mexicans its says illegal immigrants that includes ALLLLLLLLL illegal immigrants..no race is singled out.

still the way some 'americans' LOOK speak and act around other ALLLLLLLL ilegal immigrants is really racist...

[Pseudo Intellectual]

you are right, unless they have a visa.. etc etc.. I know...

But that wasnt my point.. they just want a good life...

Good for them. But that doesn't justify breaking the law. Even a father who has no money to pay for his son's heart surgery isn't allowed to break the law and rob a bank.

[Orkid]

Good for them. But that doesn't justify breaking the law. Even a father who has no money to pay for his son's heart surgery isn't allowed to break the law and rob a bank.

no offense, but your comparison doesnt make sense to me...

i am sure that ilegal or not if you rob a bank you would go to jail...

Now, I do not remember how exactly the law is, but, for example. it says something like 10 years of living in the US..in order to have the green card, for that to happen the ilegal is forced to try to stay ilegal until those years are accomplished, in the mean time they try to live a normal life and get a decent job.. for some it is easier to get the residence... (example cubans).. again no offence

Edited June 17, 2010 by Orkid

[Vampwitchenstein]

Illegal immigration should not be something we accept, it's a problem that needs to be fixed. Whatever benefits or problems they bring is beside the point when the mere act of being here is criminal. The fact that 12 million non-citizens can so easily enter and live in the country is a severe national security threat.

The first step our government should take is to actually secure the border to reduce the flood of illegal immigration to a trickle(it will always happen, but with the proper defenses it can be greatly reduced). After that, every non-attached illegal(those without American-born children under their supervision) that is discovered should be deported, not imprisoned. With a secure border, the threat of simply coming back over would almost disappear.

I understand that most of them just want is a better life, but like it or not they cannot simply come over as they please and flaunt the law. Over a million people are already allowed to legally immigrate every year.

And that is it, period.

Well put.

I just don't think it's right millions are coming IN from DOZENS of Countries legal and illegal and we still have our own people, economy and myriad 'problems' unresolved and unaddressed in a serious manner (example; old bridges falling down, school overcrowding, homelessness and hunger right in our own neighborhoods).

[Orkid]

Personally I dont know, its a very delicate subject. Because some see them as intruders. Each case is different. Some who have been there for years and raised there kids (which feel, speak and think like americans) are deported with what they have in the moment. Everything they worked for to get...is lost within seconds...

I wouldnt want to be in there shoes.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

no offense, but your comparison doesnt make sense to me...

i am sure that ilegal or not if you rob a bank you would go to jail...

Now, I do not remember how exactly the law is, but, for example. it says something like 10 years of living in the US..in order to have the green card, for that to happen the ilegal is forced to try to stay ilegal until those years are accomplished, in the mean time they try to live a normal life and get a decent job.. for some it is easier to get the residence... (example cubans).. again no offence

I don't think living 10, 20 or 50 years in the US matters if you do it illegally. You won't become a citizen that way.

But there's always amnesty.

[Vampwitchenstein]

for one,ppl can not be pulled over or detained for race alone,,,THEY HAVE TO BE PULLED OVER OR DETAINED FOR SOME OFFENSE WORTHY OF A STOP,THEN IS THEY ARE ILLEGAL THEY ARE SUBJECT TO IMMIGRATION LAWS...this is not a free racial profile card. you have to do something to be stopped for..

and how dare Mexico say our laws are raciest and unfair when their immigration laws are far tougher..

http://www.washingto...-than-arizonas/

Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," violate Mexican law, are not "physically or mentally healthy" or lack the "necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents.

Snipped

How blatantly hypocritical!

We're the evil US machine for doing LESS than what they themselves have on their books.

I had friends who visit Mexico. Every SINGLE time they manage to have at least one convo with a native about how much they enjoy the 'rich American's' who come down and spend, or buy property and live, but not so much the frugal tourists.

I wonder what their property tax collection rate is for American owners.

They do have a lot of beautiful beaches and beautiful inland terrain and towns, I don't understand whay they don't FIGHT for their own country instead of abandoning it, coming here, working menial jobs and sending a trickle of $ back there. I don't think that will help them take their country back...more probably supporting the corruption

[Orkid]

ok... got the point.. the law is being broken...

[venqax]

Personally I dont know, its a very delicate subject. Because some see them as intruders. Each case is different. Some who have been there for years and raised there kids (which feel, speak and think like americans) are deported with what they have in the moment. Everything they worked for to get...is lost within seconds...

I wouldnt want to be in there shoes.

It's really hard to get what is hard to get about this. Illegal aliens are criminals. By being here illegally, they have broken the law, and their reasons for doing this are irrelevant to being deported-- which is the only real punishment for their crime. They want better lives? So do burglars and drug dealers. What is hard to understand about this? They've been here a long time? So you get excused from criminal liability if you can get away with it long enough? They have "ethnic kindred" here? Well, so do all immigrant groups. The fact that they emphsize those ties makes them all the more suspect regarding where their loyalties lay. We don't see illegal Chinese flying upside-down US flags under Chinese ones. You can't just pretend like that kind of behavior is irrelevant to the issue, or has been rare. They were here before the US? No they weren't. That's why they're coming now. That's the difference between an American of some kind of Mexican heritage, and a Mexican. If they were already here... that doesn't even make sense. And ethnic cleansing? You've got to be kidding. Ethnic cleansing is forcibly moving people from their tradtional homelands for ethnic reasons. These people are immigrants, that's the whole problem; they are NOT in their traditional homeland. If they stayed in their homeland, we wouldn't be facing this. Again, what is hard to understand about this? The counter arugments are limited to 1) it's racist. Well it's demonstrably not. Something is not automatically racist because it happens to impact a race. And 2) it's sad. Yes. It is, sometimes. But the sadness of the plight of illegal foreigners is not the driving concern of our immigration policy, nor should it be.

Edited June 17, 2010 by venqax

[Agent X]

Because our money is far more valuable than theirs.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Agent X