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Agent X

Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration l

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Rosewin

Being one doesn't really make you a spokesperson for all of them. I can go outside right now and ask five different 'Hispanic' neighbors what they are and get five different answers. I've seen/heard it a hundred times.

There will be a variety of answers of how to self identify but that does not negate the fact that we are a unique demographic within the America.

Why not? In and of itself that sounds like a racist statement. Is there something wrong with Hispanics who have more White in them that they would need to deny/hide/omit this?

No, my direct ancestor from my fathers line immigrated from Germany to Texas in the 1800s but since he was Catholic he married into a Mexican family instead of associating with the non-Catholic, my ethnic group is 'Mexican' though we are different than Mexicans from Mexico we are in many ways cousins.

Why don't you consider yourself an Hispanic Caucasian or something? Why does a bi-racial person have to be identified as JUST one ethnicity?

Hispanic is a term that covers many who speak the same language, Spanish, good for marketing, but it does not really represent those of us whose primarily language is English, I know Spanish but it is not my primary language. It also attempts to toss in those of various races such as mestizos and mulattos under one hat, we all have different foods and dialects. The equivalent term would be 'Anglic' for all who speak English regardless if you are from America, the UK, Jamaica, Singapore, Mexican-Americans, etc...

Caucasian? I have lots of Caucasian blood, at least from appearance, but my ethnicity is still 'Mexican'.

Take President Obama. Why is he 'just' Black? When it's a fact he is HALF Black, half White.

I don't understand any of it.

It is OK, not everyone understands, but Obama is not African-American in any sense of the word and does not really share that culture except through marrying into it. His mother was white, his father from Africa proper, and he grew up in various cultures, he is fully a product of this age. He is Black. He is American. He is Cosmopolitan. He is not African-American. I know people do not like hyphenated Americans but those of us who have them, Mexican-Americans, know we are different. We all get along though.

It just boils down to this; The United States cannot 'save' everyone who wants a better life when we haven't even gotten our own (who by no choice of their won, were BORN here and are legally 'Americans') taken care of satisfactorily. We just can't fit everyone. It's just logic. The law is the law and illegal is illegal. Come into the country the correct way and fine, lovely, dandy, great.

Every country has a right to decide their immigration policy.

But don't sneak over here, lie, deceive, drain resources and live off other legal Americans and tell me how proud you are

That is a problem and there are various solutions.

to be Hispanic or Mexican or Cholo or whatever and fly the Mexican flag over here and complain about AMERICA! Why not take their own country that's so wonderful, back and MAKE it better?

The only other flag I will fly besides the American one is the Texan one. Those who wish this was Mexico are simply misguided. Our ethnic group has spread but historically is concentrated between the states of Texas and California. As stated, we are quite patriotic and loyal, but if these laws have aims which will adversely impact our demographic (English speaking Mexicans) then do not expect nothing less than our interests on being to maintain our presence within this region and a strong desire to dominate its social, political, economic, and cultural makeup.

We love America but there is a historical distrust. It would not do well for ethnic tensions to further increase because we are so close to each other in many ways. All of that would be fractured if we were not able to trust each other because some yahoos decide to start killing ethnic Mexicans.

Edited by Rosewin

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AROCES

And the AZ economy going right into the toilet. They are reaping what they've sown.

Why don't you invite all the illegals then to Illinois.

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AROCES

I hate to break it to you but criminals are members of society as well.

And we do have enough members in our society already.

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Junkers88

All of that would be fractured if we were not able to trust each other because some yahoos decide to start killing ethnic Mexicans.

By the same token a lot of things would be fractured if illegals or legal mexicans started killing people of other races. This whole thing could go a long way the wrong way but I don't see that happening.

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Princess Serenity

"They're leaving to another state where they feel more welcome," he said. Un-quote.

No. They're leaving to a State where they can continue to break the law in peace and quiet and not be accountable for it. Among other things. :angry2:

Dx

If Arizona's law is spreading. The state they're going to be "welcomed" to, gets the law, they're going to leave to another state. So on.

*Pats*

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Siara

They will simply move to a neighboring state and keep trying to produce the all-important anchor baby. We didn't need a crystal ball to predict this.

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Rosewin

By the same token a lot of things would be fractured if illegals or legal mexicans started killing people of other races. This whole thing could go a long way the wrong way but I don't see that happening.

I also do not see this happening because it would require more repressive measures to be passed that would target our ethnic group once enacted. This Arizona law has yet to prove that it would harm us once enforced. For some reason I do not see the rest of America really being allowed to continue this before it is challenged on a federal level, especially with Obama in office, and in this I do have faith in the federal government and support it.

This is not America doing this, it is a few yahoos in several states who feel like this about a 'certain population group' that is already living here. Regardless of their status they reside here and it will take more than a few silly laws to uproot this population. If these yahoos are willing to resort to violence to do this then they will simply be going down the same train track others have in history and we all know such things never turn out pretty.

If ethnic tension do rise here it would not be that surprising or unexpected. It was only a little more than one hundred years ago that my great uncles suffered under the Texas Rangers. Their legacy in some quarters is comparable to Nazi SS, in our collective memories they came and took much of our land by first passing laws, then they would visit under threat of gun and kicked more off of us off our property, if not surrendered there was violence against us up to rapes and murder. I wonder if our population is as fragile now as it was then to let that happen again.

We remember when mothers used to tell their children if they acted bad the the Comancheros would come and get them, then it turned into the 'rinches' (Texas Rangers) that would come and get them, then finally it became the 'cucui' (bogey man). We have no reason to fear others as of now, Texas Rangers are no longer like this, but it would not do well to have to tell our kids to be good or the yahoos will come and get them.

They will simply move to a neighboring state and keep trying to produce the all-important anchor baby. We didn't need a crystal ball to predict this.

Ethnic cleansing does not require a crystal ball or a conscience for that matter. That is what this would be if any population had to move to a neighboring state. For some reason I am doubting the accuracy of the article in the OP but if true then some form of ethnic cleansing has already begun.

Edited by Rosewin

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venqax

English speaking Americans who are ethnic Mexicans call themselves Mexicans. Latinos and Hispanics are umbrella terms that include other ethnic groups beyond Mexicans. I should know because I am one.

We are not Indians, we are not white, we are mestizo, that is our official race. The census can say otherwise but academically our race is mestizo, our ethnicity is Mexican, and our nationality is American. Some of us do have more white blood than others but we never consider ourselves white. We know who we are, English speaking Mexicans who are American citizens, but ethnically we are not like you, not like Puerto Ricans, and not like Cubans.

The fact that someone "is one" in this case is no qualifier of special knowledge. If anything the opposite tends to be true. Ethnic, racial and national groups very often adopt folk mythologies that have no basis in objective fact, and have a very strong, albeit subjective, reason for believing them. And so, modern Hungarians aren't the inheritors of the Huns, Ethiopians are not descendants of King Solomon, Indians didn't evolve or spring out of the ground in the Americas, the Romans weren't Trojans, the Irish aren't Trojans, Alexander is not the granddaddy of today's Macedonians, and so forth. At least there is no scientific evidence for, and often lot of it against, all these claims. If you are an American citizen, of course, none of these distinctions matter so far as fleeing law enforcement goes.

Mestizo is not the race of most Mexicans. Most are just plain Indians. It's funny that they are the ones who like to claim that distinction-- like there is something de-nobling about being an Indian and enobling about having European blood. But they aren't white people! Ironically, it is in Mexico that the red/brown/white distinction is so crucial.

Every bit of public opinion data available-- including elections-- indicates that concerns the AZ law is meant to address are by no means confined to a few yahoos. 70+% of the folks in AZ support this law, for example.

Edited by venqax

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Rosewin

Not everyone is familiar with concepts of race and ethnicity in Mexico. People know who the 'indios' are in Mexico and they are not mestizos or blancos (whites), which Mexico has today.

Under Spanish rule in Mexico there were 16 official categories of racial admixtures.

1. Mestizo: Spanish father and Indian mother

2. Castizo: Spanish father and Mestizo mother

3. Espomolo: Spanish mother and Castizo father

4. Mulatto: Spanish and black African

5. Moor: Spanish and Mulatto

6. Albino: Spanish father and Moor mother

7. Throwback: Spanish father and Albino mother

8. Wolf: Throwback father and Indian mother

9. Zambiago: Wolf father and Indian mother

10. Cambujo: Zambiago father and Indian mother

11. Alvarazado: Cambujo father and Mulatto mother

12. Borquino: Alvarazado father and Mulatto mother

13. Coyote: Borquino father and Mulatto mother

14. Chamizo: Coyote father and Mulatto mother

15. Coyote-Mestizo: Cahmizo father and Mestizo mother

16. Ahi Tan Estas: Coyote-Mestizo father and Mulatto mother

link

Here is an example of a Casta painting.

2ldw2ea.jpg

There are also other ethnic groups in Mexico: Chinese, Sephardi Jews, Yaqui Indians, etc...

Edited by Rosewin

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The Silver Thong

Why are some equating the law with racism? If I a Canadian were to be living in the States illegally I would expect to be caught, deported or put in prison. Every nation has immigration laws, live by them or pay the price.

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Rosewin

Immigration laws that mainly target one specific group will be viewed as racially or ethnically based by some. Regardless of those who say it is not it will not change that sentiment. Telling others they are perhaps wrong about that will not change the fact that this is the adopted position in which they will approach this.

Also if the current immigration laws and border allow people to enter where they are employed by American companies, then that population is already here, pass any laws you want but to try and push people out who are already residing here will ultimately be viewed as an attempt to ethnically cleanse.

That is how it is and if others wish to see it differently, where it is just about nationality, not race or ethnicity, than they are allowed to view it that way, they would not be wrong or right, but they also do not get to decide how others view and approach this.

Edited by Rosewin

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Pseudo Intellectual

Do you have any evidence that the Arizona law targets people of a specific ethnicity? The only "group" this law targets is illegal immigrants and those who help them.

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Michelle

More Americans Favor Than Oppose Arizona immigration Law

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127598/americans-favor-oppose-arizona-immigration-law.aspx

The federal governement is going to have to acknowledge, sooner or later, that they need to start enforcing the laws or more states are going to follow suit. After all, these are laws that are already on the books. Why isn't Washington DC being picketed and boycotted since Arizona has only mimicked them? Are people just afraid that they will finally now be enforced?

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Agent X

Why are some equating the law with racism? If I a Canadian were to be living in the States illegally I would expect to be caught, deported or put in prison. Every nation has immigration laws, live by them or pay the price.

They disagree with the law so they want to do anything they can to demonize the law such as making wild unwarranted claims. The law is not illegal.

It's just rhetorical nonsense designed to elicit an emotional response to allow people to commit crimes.

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Rosewin

Do you have any evidence that the Arizona law targets people of a specific ethnicity? The only "group" this law targets is illegal immigrants and those who help them.

Figuring out that the law in Arizona will ultimately just single out one group of people there is not exactly evidence but clearly perceptions are usually based more on sentiment than evidence. The one single group that will be singled out if this law does take effect are our ethnic kin. It is not rocket science to understand what our opinion of this will be. And again it is not like your view is wrong or right but ours is understandably going to be to protect our ethnic kin when it comes down to it and not much is going to change that.

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Junkers88

The one single group that will be singled out if this law does take effect are our ethnic kin.

Um, the group that will be singled out is the group of illegal people here. I don't believe illegal is an ethnicity.

It is not rocket science to understand what our opinion of this will be. And again it is not like your view is wrong or right but ours is understandably going to be to protect our ethnic kin when it comes down to it and not much is going to change that.

That sounds a little like a barely veiled threat. If I'm reading that right what you are saying is that your "people" (by that I mean American citizens of Mexican backgroung/heritage/etc) are ready and willing to commit violence against other American citizens if/when illegal immigrants of Mexican background/heritage/etc are being legally deported?

Please make no mistake, I'm not trying to start an argument or imply anything. What I am trying to say is that if lots of folks (American citizens of Mexican backgroung/heritage/etc) feel the same way you do then to whom will you point your anger? Mexican people? European people? Will it just be a free-for-all against anyone not the same color as you? I hope you understand that issues like this concern some people, myself included.

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The Silver Thong

They disagree with the law so they want to do anything they can to demonize the law such as making wild unwarranted claims. The law is not illegal.

It's just rhetorical nonsense designed to elicit an emotional response to allow people to commit crimes.

I know we don't agree a lot, but we do here. Illegal immigration has always been against the law. Now it's being enforced. I have no issue with this law really. I did at first but hey, I can change my mind.

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Rosewin
...
And again it is not like your view is wrong or right but ours is understandably going to be to protect our ethnic kin when it comes down to it and not much is going to change that.

Protect as in offer sentimental support to our ethnic kin in this national debate.

My people are Americans and Texans, these are who I can relate to the most, who I went to school with, who I work with, and ethnicity does not really change that. We may not all be related but this is all our country, our government, and our society as well and ethnicity does not really change that for any of us, me or you.

If others though wish to increase ethnic tension then the lines might get drawn differently when it comes to protecting ourselves but no one desires this to be Mexico ever again, not sensibly at least.

Edited by Rosewin

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The Silver Thong

Protect as in offer sentimental support to our ethnic kin in this debate.

My people are Americans and Texans, these are who I can relate to the most, who I went to school with, who I work with, and ethnicity does not really change that. We may not all be related but this is all our country, our government, and our society as well and ethnicity does not really change that for any of us, me or you.

If others though wish to increase ethnic tension then the lines might get drawn differently when it comes to protecting ourselves but no one desires this to be Mexico ever again, not sensibly at least.

Rosewin I see what your getting at but in reality the law is the law and this is an old law that just stepped up and made it more ummmm important. The U.S. does suffer a lot from illegal immigration. The U.S. could do what Canada did when Ameicans flocked our borders during the Vietnam war. Accept them and move on and have a no tolerance point of view after that happens. Or take the aggressive stance and arrest them all. It's a tough call no matter but it needs to be addressed, race not being in the picture.

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Rosewin

Rosewin I see what your getting at but in reality the law is the law and this is an old law that just stepped up and made it more ummmm important. The U.S. does suffer a lot from illegal immigration. The U.S. could do what Canada did when Ameicans flocked our borders during the Vietnam war. Accept them and move on and have a no tolerance point of view after that happens. Or take the aggressive stance and arrest them all. It's a tough call no matter but it needs to be addressed, race not being in the picture.

I cannot support this law regardless but I appreciate more than anything your understanding thongy.

This is also nothing new. In the 1800's in Texas there were many immigrants who came, the government tried to stop them by passing laws, but more and more kept coming until the immigrants eventually changed the most commonly spoken language in Texas. The immigrants of course were Americans and the government which had invited them and then began passing laws to stop them coming was Mexico. One of the laws was to not allow slaves. White slave owners were not happy.

Anyways I see the problem. Even if they are our ethnic kin no one wants the language of any part of this country to change. We want to preserve our culture and laws. We are all on the same side as Americans up to that point.

On the other hand if we start seeing more families being torn apart, lives shattered, or hints of violence which seem to be ethnically based then that might alter our position within the national debate and most likely that of others who simply would disagree based on politics and/or principle.

As mentioned this is nothing new there were 'Nativist' reactions to Mexican immigration during the early 20th century when mass migrations occurred due to their Revolutionary War. The press called that population 'cholos' among other things back then. The word cholo originally was used by criollos, those of the most pure Spanish ancestry, as a slur against those with mixed Indian ancestry. The border area at this time in Texas, while decided on paper, was actually an area of low intensity conflict for quite some time with all the minor horrors that accompany those kind of wars.

When the Depression struck there were mass deportations by train which had also sent back some who were American citizens 'on accident' because they were caught up in the raids. Fortunately such mistakes like that will not occur again in our modern age.

At the same historical moment, in 1930, the Harris Bill advanced three arguments for the restriction of Mexicans from the U.S.: widespread unemployment, racial undesirability, and un-Americanism. Dr. Roy L. Garis, an authority on eugenics at Vanderbilt University, prepared a report to the congressional committee. In addressing this committee, Garis read from his report that "the following statement made to the author by an American who lives on the border seems to reflect the general sentiment of those who are deeply concerned with the future welfare of this country:

Their [the Mexicans'] minds run to nothing higher than animal functions--eat, sleep, and sexual debauchery. In every huddle of Mexican shacks one meets the same idleness, hordes of hungry dogs, and filthy children with faces plastered with flies, disease, lice, human filth, stench, promiscuous fornication, bastardy, lounging, apathetic peons and lazy squaws, beans and dried chili, liquor, general squalor, and envy and hatred of the gringo. These people sleep by day and prowl by night like coyotes, stealing anything they can get their hands on, no matter how useless to them it may be. Nothing left outside is safe unless padlocked or chained down. Yet there are Americans clamoring for more of this human swine to be brought over from Mexico.'

http://www.dustjacketpress.com/v8n2/census.html

In South Texas up until the 1960's there were still places that had 'No Mexican, No Colored Allowed' signs.

Now while we get along well down here now, and in California, and in many place in between, all of this and more can be painfully remembered easily because it always starts with a few little laws. There are also many fragile populations of Mexican nationals, our ethnic kin, in many areas of America now which could be harmed.

We all wish to preserve America but if violence becomes a tool as part of this anti-immigration effort, and such violence would be expected from common citizens not really the government, and if used to push people out of their places of residence then not only will everyone in America see but the world. Of course many would disagree and we would too but such things happen quite often still to this day across the globe.

With their being the economic recession and all it is not surprising that Nativist sentiment is springing up again.

Edited by Rosewin

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Siara

Ethnic cleansing does not require a crystal ball or a conscience for that matter. That is what this would be if any population had to move to a neighboring state. For some reason I am doubting the accuracy of the article in the OP but if true then some form of ethnic cleansing has already begun.

It's not ethnic cleansing. Many of the people who support the law are Hispanic, legal aliens or citizens of Hispanic descent. Their families in Mexico have applied for citizenship and are waiting in line while they go through the legal process correctly. All this border chaos delays the time when the legal applicants will be able to join their families. The fact that the supporters of the Arizona law refer to the illegals as "Mexicans" is a reflection of the simple fact that that's the nationality of people on the other side of the border. "Arizona shares a southern border with Mexico" is not a racist statement.

If tens of thousands of Canadians were crossing our northern border illegally (to the point where US towns along the border didn't function) the emphasis would be on Canadian immigration.

Edited by Siara

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DieChecker

And the AZ economy going right into the toilet. They are reaping what they've sown.

Sometimes you need to live on less, so you can get all your bills balanced again.

Immigration laws that mainly target one specific group will be viewed as racially or ethnically based by some.

Do you know why it mainly targets one specific group? Because that group is the vast majority of offenders. If 90% of illegal immigrants were from Japan, would it still be a racist law to target all illegals?

And again it is not like your view is wrong or right but ours is understandably going to be to protect our ethnic kin when it comes down to it and not much is going to change that.

Yeah. That does sound kind of like a threat. Kind of like... My People come first and then all the rest of you Americans way down there second.

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Rosewin

It's not ethnic cleansing. Many of the people who support the law are Hispanic, legal aliens or citizens of Hispanic descent. Their families in Mexico have applied for citizenship and are waiting in line while they go through the legal process correctly. All this border chaos delays the time when the legal applicants will be able to join their families. The fact that the supporters of the Arizona law refer to the illegals as "Mexicans" is a reflection of the simple fact that that's the nationality of people on the other side of the border. "Arizona shares a southern border with Mexico" is not a racist statement.

If tens of thousands of Canadians were crossing our northern border illegally (to the point where US towns along the border didn't function) the emphasis would be on Canadian immigration.

This population arrived to work for American companies which benefit the American economy overall. If America is going to benefit from them in this manner then it is responsible regardless of citizenship status. In fact America should allow those who have contributed to become full American citizens so they can contribute even further as well as attain benefits of citizenship. As is many have to work using fake social security cards so all the taxes they put in they cannot ever benefit from.

This population pays property taxes through their rents and their children go to school. Some have gone to school here their whole lives but cannot apply for loans or grants to go to college once they graduate. Laws which make the citizenship process too expensive are another way 'to keep some illegal' but still try and benefit from their labor.

Some actually believe they want to sneak in and not become citizens? No, if they could sign up legally to come and work and be on record and begin the citizenship process they would do so in a heartbeat. It is bureaucratic regulations and expensive paperwork put in place through past anti-immigration laws which have made the current immigration policy what it is.

Laws which affect their overall health access or educational pursuits are also other issues. It cannot be both ways where they are taken advantage of to work for American companies but ignored in other ways.

They should have never been allowed in to begin with but once they are part of this American process of commerce then to simply kick them out when times are hard might seem like a slick idea but it is nothing short of ethnic cleansing. Forced removal of established populations, even through legislation, is ethnic cleansing by the definition of the word. What is worse is that Nativist sentiment usually is followed by violence.

This is not an argument. It is a position. No one is right or wrong in these matters but form our positions for different reasons and circumstances. Together we will decide as a nation how to proceed. You do realize immigrants who live here are very much a part of this nation and to to further delegitimatize and demonize them is simply cannibalism of our own national body.

It is also foolish to think a nation can preserve its ethnic composition. Those who try lose the institutions and values that are most worthy of being passed on. Rome and Greece are no longer great but they have left us much. The US will in turn leave much to distant descendants of whatever ethnic composition they might be.

Edited by Rosewin

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Agent X

Based on that reasoning we should just get rid of law period, because breaking the law provides benefit (i.e. PROFIT) to some people.

No, the only reason to paint the law as racist is to allow ilelgal immigrants to continue to break the law and reaping better benefits that many citizens do.

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Siara

Based on that reasoning we should just get rid of law period, because breaking the law provides benefit (i.e. PROFIT) to some people.

No, the only reason to paint the law as racist is to allow ilelgal immigrants to continue to break the law and reaping better benefits that many citizens do.

Good point.

Expecting would-be citizens to respect our laws doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Rosewin, do you think that NO countries in the entire world should be able to control their borders or is it only America that shouldn't do this?

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