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Agent X

Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration l

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Vampwitchenstein

OMG!.. are you people even reading what you write?.. GOOD?... about damn time?... do you know what ilegals go through if being caught?...

Snipped

All due respect, that's like me saying 'Do you know what I went through being arrested for having a suspended license an pulled over driving a car with expired registration, had to get booked into jail and PAY to get out?!'

(True story, 15 years ago when I was dumberer, lol)

I KNEW my license was suspended. I KNEW the registration on the car was expired. I knew every time I got in that car I was tempting fate.

They KNOW they're coming over here illegally.

On another note; I just spent 3 months clearing up MY SSN being used in South Carolina by an ILLEGAL (Jose Falcon, probably also fake) working in a poultry processing plant! WTH?! The problems that caused me!

I'm pretty sure Mister Falcon knew he was buying a stolen SSN from the corner illegal papers dealer.

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Orkid

its not that I dont understand the concept.. I wouldnt know what to do in that case (being the once to judge) and yes its sad.. and I guess Im the kind of dilusional person who thinks we should all get along..but still doent mean that the US should be flooded with immigrants (no matter the race) well.. thanks for you opinion venqax...

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Orkid

All due respect, that's like me saying 'Do you know what I went through being arrested for having a suspended license an pulled over driving a car with expired registration, had to get booked into jail and PAY to get out?!'

(True story, 15 years ago when I was dumberer, lol)

I KNEW my license was suspended. I KNEW the registration on the car was expired. I knew every time I got in that car I was tempting fate.

They KNOW they're coming over here illegally.

On another note; I just spent 3 months clearing up MY SSN being used in South Carolina by an ILLEGAL (Jose Falcon, probably also fake) working in a poultry processing plant! WTH?! The problems that caused me!

I'm pretty sure Mister Falcon knew he was buying a stolen SSN from the corner illegal papers dealer.

DARN!..MUST HAVE BEEN A PAIN in the b***!..sorry you had to go through all of that! (cause of the ssn).. well hopefully they will stop all of that from happening now..

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HerNibs

Personally I dont know, its a very delicate subject. Because some see them as intruders. Each case is different. Some who have been there for years and raised there kids (which feel, speak and think like americans) are deported with what they have in the moment. Everything they worked for to get...is lost within seconds...

I wouldnt want to be in there shoes.

If they wish to be American citizens then they can legally apply. Then start the process.

Being here illegally doesn't give them the right to claim citizenship.

If you were out of town for a week and some one broke into your home and stayed there the week you were gone, would you HAVE to let them continue to live with you? Maybe they mowed the lawn, did the dishes and painted the garage. Does that give them any right to your home?

Nibs

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HollyDolly

How is it racist? Wouldn't it be more along the lines of "Nationalist" or "Patriotic"? Is it racist when a Frenchmen tells a German to come to his country legally? Is it racist when Canada enforces it's border laws on the US border?

Personally, I think it's just a bottom of the bucket, last ditch, effort when someone pulls the race card. Not everything in life revolves around race. Insisting that your government enforce teh laws is no more racist than insisting that they arrest bank robbers.

As a side note, "Mexican" isn't a "race", it's a nationality. As an additional side note, many Mexican would classify themselves as "white" and many are in fact whiter than I am. What's more, I'm part Creek Indian. Many Mexicans are of Mayan decent.... does it seem logical for one Native American to be racist against another Native American?

Wonder if they are going back to Mexico,or just moving to states that don't have such a law in place.

I understand in Arizona and New Mexico, most people there who are hispanic don't take kindly to being called Mexican.

They consider themselves Spanish.I know a guy at work who is hispanic,and born right here in the states,as american as you or I.He like many hispanics think these people need to come here legally,and they need to speak english period.

My sister in law's family llike John's has been here for generations since before Texas was even a state.

She doesn't hesitate to tell other hispanics to stuff it when they try playing the race card.She's as white as i am.just thinks this is all garbage catering to these illegals when our own people can't get a break.

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Orkid

If they wish to be American citizens then they can legally apply. Then start the process.

Being here illegally doesn't give them the right to claim citizenship.

If you were out of town for a week and some one broke into your home and stayed there the week you were gone, would you HAVE to let them continue to live with you? Maybe they mowed the lawn, did the dishes and painted the garage. Does that give them any right to your home?

Nibs

What does burglary :ph34r: have to do with immigration :alien: ?...

OOH!!! I GET IT *ray of light* your home being the US for example and the guy who broke in an immigrant.. hmm :wacko: ... makes me wonder, now that you put it that way... still doesnt make any sense.. sorry.. people have been doing this since forever...

down with colonization for ever happening....

Some apply others dont.. I really wouldnt know, and niether would you...

Edited by Orkid

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HerNibs

What does burglary :ph34r: have to do with immigration :alien: ?...

OOH!!! I GET IT *ray of light* your home being the US for example and the guy who broke in an immigrant.. hmm :wacko: ... makes me wonder, now that you put it that way... still doesnt make any sense.. sorry.. people have been doing this since forever...

down with colonization for ever happening....

Some apply others dont.. I really wouldnt know, and niether would you...

:)

It doesn't matter that people have been doing it forever. People have been murdering forever, stealing forever, lying and cheating forever. The fact that a crime has continued for a long time doesn't make it any less of a crime.

It's illegal. There are proper and legal ways to do things and then there are the wrong ways.

I think Wickian hit it on the nose here.

Oh, and I do have a bit of an idea about what it is like to deal with deportation and citizenship. I didn't but I spoke to people about it recently and I have a better understanding.

Nibs

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Rosewin

I tried to find cost estimates on this and couldn't find any. Do you happen to have a link?

I am not certain of the exact costs but you can look under the forms list.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=dd346d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=dd346d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

I just know it takes lots of time and money through word of mouth. You need at least a green card, then citizenship, between those there is costs to petition, then to file if successful, then other forms and such. Then there is all the time limits between forms, health tests, exams, but I am not certain what all you pay for and they have case workers who guide you through the process telling you what you need.

It is beyond most working immigrants means to go through the process while they are working here for cheap wages and most companies just want to use you for your labor and not help you at all with the process. It is easy to see that this immigrant population is being used as a source for cheap labor, it is a commodity like any other a nation has and by keeping the expensive bureaucratic maze of becoming legal in tact it 'keeps' them illegal to insure they remain a cheap commodity.

Anytime they can be bounced back and have to start all over again, thus insuring they can never assimilate, nor can they ever be given a fair chance to rise above their station, and forced to remain as a source of cheap labor while others profit off this.

The immigration laws are a tool, they can be changed to properly document most that enter, the laws can be used to either legitimize or delegitimatize Mexicans. A law can be made to get those who have given their sweat, blood, and toil to this nation and make them legal. Or we can insist on calling them illegals, treating them like crooks, and pass more laws to further delegitimize them.

I understand that if you want to have a nation of just one group then you have to be prepared to do all the work. Lebensraum was so that the German peasants had to do all the hard work in the new farmlands or at least that was the plan. If any nation allows immigrants in as cheap labor or even slaves as cheaper labor time and time again history has shown the servant class will rise and become rulers themselves.

Right now if we ethnically cleansed the 'illegals' closed the borders and let birthrates continue on their own we will end up with two majority populations in the future of America. One will be Mexican ethnics who are Catholic and white Christian fundamentalists. Many Americans have given up on family and children thus who is having all the babies now will decide the future population of this nation.

How far will we go to keep this group or that one from not taking over through natural birthrates? Many of us are already here and loyal citizens.

Will we mess with the water so one group is sterile to limit their population? These laws are just another form of that type of control. As is Planned Parenthood was started in part by someone who had such ideas, Marget Sanger, and has been associated with very influential people, such as Bill Gates' father. This is social engineering and today there is a planned parenthood in every poor area of town.

It received crucial grants from John D. Rockefeller, Jr.'s Bureau of Social Hygiene from 1924 onward. The grants were made anonymously to avoid public exposure of the Rockefeller name to her agenda. The family also consistently supported her ongoing efforts in regard to population control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

Whenever there is war, famine, disease, and economic pressures society will not just fight a war abroad, or at the frontiers of their borders if they are still doing that, they will also fight one at home.

You know it is happening when the ones being targeted are part of the most vulnerable populations in society. They will be the ones who have the least influence, rights, security, and benefits. In medieval times that was of course the elderly, women, children, those who lived at the end of the village, those caught practicing the old religion or did not go to mass, those healing with folk remedies, because Northern Europe was a rough place then where one crop failure or crop burning could mean the starvation of the whole village. They had wars with some cities turning Catholic or Protestant over night and perhaps back again the next month or year and vicious deaths with each switch over.

You will also know this is happening because an industry will be built around the persecution. Laws will become a tool and perhaps even rich people will be targeted just to take their wealth, now property of the crown, and holy office, or town council, they had various contracts during the witch burnings and in one place they even stopped the torture because the mayor or the council was not getting their fair share then when that was resolved the torture continued.

They had to pay jailers, torturers, executioners, the person who cut down the wood, they needed rope, they payed for carriages to pick up important officials, to transfer prisoners, and so on. People made money and when the money dried up the witch burnings kinda quietly went away. All based on the people's fear coupled with the profit minded willing to exploit that general fear. Sometimes the town council would tell the church they would not stand for it in their town. Sometimes the town council would want to burn witches and the church would stop them. Universities would give opinions both to allow torture or give the opinion that it should not be done.

We can find a parallel in the War Against Drugs today which pays for construction of prisons, food contracts for them, for the guards, for law enforcement to catch druggies and put them in jail. It will not stop even if ineffective and the reason why murderers walk as druggies as mandated by Federal laws serve the full time but in the end too many people are making a living off of it to just make drugs legal and tax them as some European nations do. It eliminates the drug dealers, the violence that goes with them, and helps the private sector economy....and taxes. Why do we allow the profits to continue that fuel the massacres in Mexico that occur on a daily basis connected to their Drug War.

Having a militarized border would create many jobs for Americans, massive forced deportations will also supply jobs for Americans, and industry could be built around it. At work sometimes I see many white buses with all black windows, iron bars, a few of them in a row will pass by on the expressway after having dropped off their cargo. Illegal aliens to be deported by an ICE air flight. It is already a burgeoning industry because so much money goes into all those jobs needed, drivers, armed guards, pilots, translators, fuel, and planes.

We can make it like the Hoover Dam and build a great wall along the border and hire everyone at good wages but throughout all of history a nation that builds walls has already stopped expanding and growing and is already in decline. I wonder what that says about us?

The last time they had a huge immigration overhaul was in 1986 with the passage of the Rodino-Simpson Bill. It called for a guest program for any new immigrants, amnesty for those who had been here prior to January 1982, made it harder for companies to hire immigrants without documentation, etc...did it help?

If the media makes you fear the same things over and the politicians propose the same solutions all over again then you know it is a game they are running and someone is profiting.

America has a habit of using Mexicans for cheap labor when times are good then when times are bad throwing them out. The Bracero Program began in 1942, war time boom economy in America, and it invited them in as workers easily with the proper papers to do their tasks. Now we wish to push them out, that is hardly fair, Christian, ethical, or moral. Immigration laws are a tool that can legitimize those when we need them and delegitimize those when we don't.

I believe we are finding ways to target the weakest members of society today just as in the burning times of the witch. We have all the conditions which make it ripe: we are in two wars, a recession which left some people worse off than when it began, and the decline of the middle class.

In the end we have to decide as a country, America, what will we leave as a legacy. The Greeks and Romans are not around but they have left us many things from democracies to republics. We can choose to leave a legacy of our cultural values and institutions, our government, our Constitution, or we can can exert all our efforts on just insuring we are always in a state of panicked fear and must preserve one certain culture at all costs.

We have to decide what kind of society we want to live in. A society like we have today and improve on that? Or a society that requires a military presence at the border, with neighbors as enemies, without being able to trust people because we will forever remember what we did to them and them to us.

This is how we must decide, on a total future, or we can either look at the smaller picture and just react to those telling us to fear and build a wall, or we can look at the bigger picture and decide: do we really want to live in a society that needs walls and have everything that comes with that?

Edited by Rosewin

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Orkid

:)

It doesn't matter that people have been doing it forever. People have been murdering forever, stealing forever, lying and cheating forever. The fact that a crime has continued for a long time doesn't make it any less of a crime.

It's illegal. There are proper and legal ways to do things and then there are the wrong ways.

yeah, guess they do it cause they are afraid.. umm..still it isnt right to do things the wrong way I get it.

thanks! :tu:

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Siara

OMG!.. are you people even reading what you write?.. GOOD?... about damn time?... do you know what ilegals go through if being caught?... maybe that is why people who do have legal rights (hispanic or any other who werent born in the US) run to another state cause they are connected to those who are not, might get deported anyways...

Orkid... I'm just curious. You think the Mexicans have a culture that deserves to be preserved (I agree). But do you think residents of the USA have a culture that's worth preserving? A lot of people don't. I have a classic east-coast Ivy League education and when I was in school (which was so left-wing it even bothered me) the correct opinion was that every culture in the world was a beautiful gem worth preserving and the USA was a total vacuum with no cultural traditions at all. The USA was low of the low, with no right to preserve their culture. Why is it that our lifestyle counts as nothing? We have a right to preserve our culture too.

Many left wingers would go ballistic over the idea of thousands of Americans crossing the southern border illegally, then recreating our culture in Mexico and demanding that signs be in English. But they have no problem at all with the reverse. It seems to me that people should either approve of both or approve of neither. This leftist idea that American culture is so contemptible it doesn't deserve the respect of every other culture strikes me as an affectation.

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Wickian

Orkid... I'm just curious. You think the Mexicans have a culture that deserves to be preserved (I agree). But do you think residents of the USA have a culture that's worth preserving? A lot of people don't. I have a classic east-coast Ivy League education and when I was in school (which was so left-wing it even bothered me) the correct opinion was that every culture in the world was a beautiful gem worth preserving and the USA was a total vacuum with no cultural traditions at all. The USA was low of the low, with no right to preserve their culture. Why is it that our lifestyle counts as nothing? We have a right to preserve our culture too.

Many left wingers would go ballistic over the idea of thousands of Americans crossing the southern border illegally, then recreating our culture in Mexico and demanding that signs be in English. But they have no problem at all with the reverse. It seems to me that people should either approve of both or approve of neither. This leftist idea that American culture is so contemptible it doesn't deserve the respect of every other culture strikes me as an affectation.

The only thing has bothered me about the whole Spanish language issue where I live(southern California) is that the emergency broadcast messages come in Spanish before English. At least all of the tests that block out what I'm watching to let me know they're testing it have.

That pretty much shows you who the government is prioritizing.

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Rosewin

Let us hope these Spanish speakers do not take over one day in America. The way some people look down on them now, just because they are different, if they are ever in power they will be the same and look back down on us and our families, as well creating a dual economy where they have the wealth and we have to supply them the cheap labor, and in keeping us poor they will look down on us Americans as inferior and themselves as elite.

It will take a long time then to have to strike for better wages, be repressed by their authorities, have the press claim we are not striking, and instead treat us like a national security threat. They will say we are not good for the country, that we do not want to learn Spanish, the official language, but only want to speak English, how we are so different, etc...

It will not matter to them if we have roots here, once it is changed they will deny citizenship status to us English speakers, then they can use terms like 'illegal' during times our cheap labor is not needed. Since we never became 'legal' they can then always insure more of us will always be a source of cheap labor.

America, we have the power now to become more egalitarian, or we can insist on treating each other as different such as this statement: 'That pretty much shows you who the government is prioritizing.'

That statement is valuable because it does show that governments will always favor one group over another. Some want their group prioritized only, some realize this is how it has been, some do not like to see their group no longer being prioritized, yet these people never stop and ask for all groups to be equal.

It does not have to be this way especially while we are in control of this government as citizens of America. If we do not change it now how can we expect them to act different once they are in power? They are simply having more babies than us.

Rome fell because of immigration among other things. The Romans considered the Germanic tribes as barbarians but these same Germanic tribes have become the nucleus of all modern Western European nations. Does anyone think America will even last as long as Rome did?

Make it more equal now or our children or their children will find themselves on the other side of the equation. We can decide what kind of system is passed down and if we do not change ours only the roles will reverse.

It has been only less than 200 years since we took the Southwest and did the same exact things to them leading to our current situation. I doubt we can hold onto this for another 200 years. They are coming, too many of them are already here, and many have already became American citizens. Allow them to be Americans, treat them as such, or treat them differently and live with the results.

Just in my city alone I have seen Spanish speakers double, their Taquerias are popping up all over the place and seem different than our own traditional Tex-Mex restaurants. While we share many things with these Spanish speakers, I am American and American culture is ours. Just in case though it would be a good idea for some of us to not totally forget Spanish.

Edited by Rosewin

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Paracelse

Absolutely fabulous. I wonder who has come to the conclusion that "legal" Hispanics are leaving too. All in dread fear of this law. I think legal people know perfectly well that they have nothing to worry about. I never saw any Hispanic US citizens or green card holders take off running when the INS drove up. Not once.

I actually did. This young man who was on the verge to start his "air conditioning" business in Mexico city was married to an American girl, had a green card and was perfectly legit. While in school, he got a job as dishwasher in the restaurant I was working. After graduation, he went to Mexico and started the paperwork to start a very legitimate business. In the mean time while preparing his move, he still worked at the restaurant. One evening, we got raided by INS. He saw them coming and quickly gave me his greencard to hide. The US government gave him a free ride home and his wife followed him a couple days later with the rented truck... The whole situation was hilarious. 30 years later it still makes me smile. :rolleyes:

Edited by Paracelse

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Lord Umbarger

They didn't like the conditions where they were so they came here.... if hey don't like the laws being enforced here, that whole leaving thing might work out for them again.

Dumb question but, if someone is against this law which makes it easier to identify illegal aliens, how would they feel about not enforcing other laws that some criminals feel are inconvenient? Most murderers probably feel they're being oppressed by the State too.

Besides, for all the up-roar, the new law just allows police to ask about their national origins AFTER they've been stopped for questioning on some other issue. It doesn't give police the power to go and brutalize someone for the hell of it.

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Orkid

The only thing has bothered me about the whole Spanish language issue where I live(southern California) is that the emergency broadcast messages come in Spanish before English. At least all of the tests that block out what I'm watching to let me know they're testing it have.

That pretty much shows you who the government is prioritizing.

It's good to have two languages too you know :blush: ..

In the boarder between brazil and Uruguay, people from that region end up speaking both brazilian and spanish. There broadcast is brazilian and spanish and people in Uruguay speaken half brazilian and half spanish...with all do respect... so what?

You prefer that the broadcast first be IN English?

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

What dif does it make if the same message will come from the TV screen?

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Rosewin

They didn't like the conditions where they were so they came here.... if hey don't like the laws being enforced here, that whole leaving thing might work out for them again.

Some of us are here to stay, so we are not leaving anywhere unless we are ethnically cleansed, and if we do not like the laws are we can simply try to change them and it is doubtful we will be alone in that effort.

If you want a country with only one group then you should have thought about doing all the dirty work yourself to begin with.

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HerNibs

If anyone is here legally then great! Diversity is what our country embraces. (Most of it.)

If they are here illegally then they need to go back where they started and come back along legal channels.

Where is the "ethnic cleansing"? Who said they don't want anyone "from other groups" in our country?

Mistakes have been made in the past, I have no argument with it but TODAY we need to address the issues and follow the law.

Nibs

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Pseudo Intellectual

I only want one group in America, that's true. That group is, of course, people who are in America legally. First Islam is a race, now illegal immigrant is an ethnicity. What a strange mind, leftists have.

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Rosewin
If they are here illegally then they need to go back where they started and come back along legal channels.

If anyone came to work for American companies, have established themselves in communities, then they are now part of our society. It is understood that we still have laws which do not grant equality to all members of our society. That can change.

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Rosewin

I only want one group in America, that's true. That group is, of course, people who are in America legally.

When the next amnesty occurs they will become legal. Then they will be American citizens who are also Mexican ethnics. Maybe you will still not want them then and that of course would reveal other motives for not wanting them to begin with.

It is not that difficult to have an amnesty and with this wonderful debate emerging that is most likely going to be one of the federal government's solutions.

Edited by Rosewin

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HerNibs

If anyone came to work for American companies, have established themselves in communities, then they are now part of our society. It is understood that we still have laws which do not grant equality to all members of our society. That can change.

Nope. If I am on vacation and some one breaks into my home and mows the lawn, do I have to let them live with me when I return? No.

Yes, we have laws that deny some people rights and those laws should be changed. Many are fighting to change those laws now. So? What does that have to do with illegal immigration?

The American companies that hire illegal immigrants should be punished. The illegal immigrant should be returned to his or her country.

You didn't answer my other questions.

Nibs

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Pseudo Intellectual

"When"? I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you. Especially not these days. But it could happen.

Anyway, you admit they're illegal now, so they can still be deported. Until they somehow become legal, we should do our best to send them back to their home country.

And, to be honest with you, those who selfishly come to America, break the law, use up benefits they didn't earn, and then influence politicians to make their crime legal, will never be true Americans. They would be no more American than the "American" 19-year-old who died in the Gaza flotilla raid.

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HerNibs

When the next amnesty occurs they will become legal. Then they will be American citizens who are also Mexican ethnics. Maybe you will still not want them then and that of course would reveal other motives for not wanting them to begin with.

What does that mean? What exactly are you alluding to in this statement?

It is not that difficult to have an amnesty and with this wonderful debate emerging that is most likely going to be one of the federal government's solutions.

Then great. If that is what is offered and people take advantage of the amnesty and become legal citizens then that's fine. It's still no excuse to break the laws.

Nibs

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Pseudo Intellectual

By the way, Rosewin:

2b. Illegal material: Do not post material that is violative of any law or that describes or advocates illegal activities such as taking, growing, buying or selling drugs; the sale or promotion of weapons, hacking, trespassing, downloading pirated software, movies or music, participation in criminal offences or plans to enact criminal acts.

Illegal immigration is, after all, a crime. :)

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Rosewin

Nope. If I am on vacation and some one breaks into my home and mows the lawn, do I have to let them live with me when I return? No.

Yes, we have laws that deny some people rights and those laws should be changed. Many are fighting to change those laws now. So? What does that have to do with illegal immigration?

That is how you must feel since you are not one of the company owners hiring them.

No one broke into their houses when they were on vacation, nah, these companies put out the word they are hiring as long as you can make it to where they are at, most Mexicans crossing already do so knowing they have a job waiting at this place or that one.

The American companies that hire illegal immigrants should be punished. The illegal immigrant should be returned to his or her country.

Enforcement on that level needs to occur. It is lax because it benefits the company owners who in turn line the pockets of those making the decision to enforce or not. Maybe not through direct bribes, but everyone sees how the wheel are greased within their own counties and where to turn blind eyes, you do no want to put so and so who owns the factory out of business now.

But yes, we do, and should. The company owners who hire illegals are the major component to this issue. This is a labor issue through and through and if that is not solved we can play the deportation merry go round for ever all while some profit.

Edited by Rosewin

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