Challenge

[jpalz]

Ok norman, give my some conclusive proof of the christian God.I was once a strong christian norman.But then I saw that people kill other people because of beliefs,What motivated bin laden? Words in a book written 2000 years ago, what motivated the crusades? words in a book written 2000 years. whats motivating bush? Idioism and the belief that Gods sending him messages, and I quote

"First god told me to strike at bin laden,Then the al queda and now saddam"-President Bush 2004.If theres a God out there norman who loves us all oh so much why does he tell us to hate and judge? I would be willing to take my chances betting he's not. Im not stating there is no "God" but far more likely It's a being of a higher consciouness. Not a figure of fantasy in a book. I think if the all knowing loving God as the bible portrays him is so real then why is he condemning people to hell.

People go to Hell because they choose to, not because God wants to condemn them.

[jpalz]

There will NEVER be any proof. There has never been any proof.

However, some will argue that the holy Bible is all the proof they need, and they will argue that the Church is witness to everything the bible says, and that's all they need.

Proof is not a book written by a bunch of kids 2000 years ago, not is it the spoken word of a power hungry organisation. And it is definately not a 'feeling' you get in your head.

I personally cannot accept these as proof.

But there will always be Religion. People need it to justify their lives because they cannot accept that we are animals, whos sole purpose on the earth is to have sex, bare children and die and rott away in the ground.

Why don't other animals have religion? Because they're not intelligent enough to delude themselves.

Why are there so many different religions, instead of just one? Because all evolutions of man are the same, they need religion to justify themselves, so they make up gods to worship.

Religion is murder. It is a cult. You blindly follow what some random dude says because he hears voices. Men kill for their gods when, wait, isn't that AGAINST their religion?

Hell, the very religion doesn't make sense. If something this big is gonna be made up, don't make it contradict itself with teachings on how bad it is to have sex and inbred, when the religion clearly states that every human being on earth is inbred from 2 humans who suddenly popped one day into existance.

*sigh* It's the most irrational, silly thing on the planet. But if you need it to get through your day, good for you.

Burn. Sex is bad when you just order your relationship with another person only in that. In the end, if you live it that way you become a slave of yourself, a slave of sex. Love is based in accepting the other person the way he is, even is he (or she) doesn't satisfy you sexually. And as to why people say it's bad to have sex before marriage... well, your sexuality is one BIG gift you have, and if you're going to spend the rest of your life living with another one, you wouldn't want to spoil that gift, right? Well, same with sexuality. Think of it as a birthday cake for someone you love, ONLY for that person. You wouldn't give other people slices of that cake, right?

Of course that if it happens, that you had sex before marriage, it doesn't mean that there is no way you're gonna be happy with your wife.

Well, just that.

PS: I registered here because I read your topic on Silent Hill games. I love them, and the scare the s**t outta me.

[BurnSide]

Glad you like the topic, post your response!

The part about sex, i'm aware that sex after marriage is fine in the religion, i'm saying that it shouldn't be that way because the sole purpose in life that humans have is just the same as all animals, basic instinct, have sex, die. That's it. If god created us to bare children, we shouldn't need to get married to do so, especially since marriage is a relatively new concept not even dating back to Jesus' days. None of it adds up.

[jpalz]

One last thing BurnSide. If the only purpose in life is just to have sex, have children and die, then what is the purpose of, for example, charity organizations? They would be just worthless. Why fighting for something? For nothing.

[BurnSide]

Of course, i fail to mention the value of human life!

Don't missunderstand me, i value human life and every man and woman deserves to have a good life. But in the end, we do die, so if you look at it that way there really is no purpose to charity organisations because it's impossible to real save lives.

[Kira]

jpalz Posted on Jul 10 2004, 04:14 AM

Sex is bad when you just order your relationship with another person only in that. In the end, if you live it that way you become a slave of yourself, a slave of sex. Love is based in accepting the other person the way he is, even is he (or she) doesn't satisfy you sexually. And as to why people say it's bad to have sex before marriage... well, your sexuality is one BIG gift you have, and if you're going to spend the rest of your life living with another one, you wouldn't want to spoil that gift, right? Well, same with sexuality. Think of it as a birthday cake for someone you love, ONLY for that person. You wouldn't give other people slices of that cake, right?

Of course that if it happens, that you had sex before marriage, it doesn't mean that there is no way you're gonna be happy with your wife.

Hmmm I'm going to say that I think your outlook is very blinkered. Love is one emotion that covers a lot of bases. And you can love more than one person at once.. we have the capacity to do this. It may be sexual, emotional, spiritual, or any or all of those and it dependant on the people that are involved.

So I have a question to the people who have the view that God exists and made us... If that's the case, then explain to me why this diety would allow us the capacity to do this?

Edited July 10, 2004 by Kira

[stillcrazy]

Of course that if it happens, that you had sex before marriage, it doesn't mean that there is no way you're gonna be happy with your wife.

I'm going to be silly here, But I wouldn't buy a car with out checking under the bonnet first. Taking it for a test drive so to speak.

Sorry for the silly comment, but I couldn't resist.

BTW My faith/religion/beliefs are just that. Mine.

[Falco Rex]

I'd like to point out that marrying someone just for the sake of love is a relatively new concept that has only really gained prevalence within the last century or so..

Before that marriages were generally an alliance between two families. The person you loved and the one you married were often completly different.

It was not uncommon or even frowned upon for husbands and wives to have "someone on the side."

It seems a little foolish to judge the whole of the human experience in life and thousands of years of biological imperative in terms of very recent cultural conditioning..

And who can really say they were so wrong in the past. Now that we marry solely on the basis of love the divorce rate has skyrocketed to record highs...

In the end sex is just sex. It's a nice experience that doesn't have to have a lot of emotional baggage attached to it. It might be nice when it does, but it's not worth all the repression, tradition and philosophy that recent Western thought has imposed on it. It's merely another biological function..

[jpalz]

jpalz Posted on Jul 10 2004, 04:14 AM

Sex is bad when you just order your relationship with another person only in that. In the end, if you live it that way you become a slave of yourself, a slave of sex. Love is based in accepting the other person the way he is, even is he (or she) doesn't satisfy you sexually. And as to why people say it's bad to have sex before marriage... well, your sexuality is one BIG gift you have, and if you're going to spend the rest of your life living with another one, you wouldn't want to spoil that gift, right? Well, same with sexuality. Think of it as a birthday cake for someone you love, ONLY for that person. You wouldn't give other people slices of that cake, right?

Of course that if it happens, that you had sex before marriage, it doesn't mean that there is no way you're gonna be happy with your wife.

Hmmm I'm going to say that I think your outlook is very blinkered. Love is one emotion that covers a lot of bases. And you can love more than one person at once.. we have the capacity to do this. It may be sexual, emotional, spiritual, or any or all of those and it dependant on the people that are involved.

So I have a question to the people who have the view that God exists and made us... If that's the case, then explain to me why this diety would allow us the capacity to do this?

Of course you can love more than one person at a time!!!!! Your mother, you family, etc... but there are different kinds of love. I was talking about the one you share with your wife, girlfriend, etc. Not the other ones.

[Kira]

I was talking about the one you share with your wife, girlfriend, etc. Not the other ones.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough that's what I was talking about

[trublvr]

Ok norman, give my some conclusive proof of the christian God.I was once a strong christian norman.But then I saw that people kill other people because of beliefs,What motivated bin laden? Words in a book written 2000 years ago, what motivated the crusades? words in a book written 2000 years. whats motivating bush? Idioism and the belief that Gods sending him messages, and I quote

"First god told me to strike at bin laden,Then the al queda and now saddam"-President Bush 2004.If theres a God out there norman who loves us all oh so much why does he tell us to hate and judge? I would be willing to take my chances betting he's not. Im not stating there is no "God" but far more likely It's a being of a higher consciouness. Not a figure of fantasy in a book. I think if the all knowing loving God as the bible portrays him is so real then why is he condemning people to hell.

Student&Alive posted this a little earlier in this discussion, and I've only had a chance to respond just now, so please forgive the late reply.

The argument about violence in the name of religion has come up a lot. Many use this to argue against religious belief. Interestingly, though, the same people never acknowledge the violence and oppression done in the name of atheism (especially in the 20th century).

I'm not a Bush supporter, and I find some things (not all) that he and the Republican party have done reprehensible. But can you please show me anywhere where Bush is quoted as saying that some god--any god--told him to wage war on Osama Bin Laden or Iraq? As far as whether or not Bush is a Christian, I have no idea either way. But there has been quite a lot of ridiculous journalism out there that employs this kind of logic: Many Christians are Republican > Bush is a Republican who claims some sort personal affinity for Christianity > Bush is waging war because he thinks the Christian God told him to. Regardless of whether or not one likes Bush, Jesus, or the church, this is a ridiculous proposition. Our military campaign in Iraq is fraught with deceit and misinformation, but I think the only reason Bush needed for going to get Osama Bin Laden may have a little to do with Sept. 11. One doesn't have to read the bible or get a message from God to want to go after him.

And as far as the Crusades go, if anyone would do even a small amount of research on the Crusades or the Inquisitions, it is easy to see that none of the aggressors were murdering because they we concerned with the will of God or anything like that. Both travesties were about an idiotic and anti-Christian church garnering power for itself. That's it. Whatever things folks said about acting in accordance with anything in the bible--Old or New Testament--were merely appeals made to justify evil. ANY truth--not just the truth found in the bible--can be perverted by evil people. In fact, please show me a truth or a body of truths that has not been perverted by human beings at some point and time! Also, can you present any truth that cannot be perverted and used for twisted ends? I don't think you can.

Truthfulness isn't to be measured by the impossibility of falsehood or perversion. All truth can be perverted by people. If the search for truth consists of looking for that which cannot be falsified, then we all need to give up immediately (some have opted for this route). However, what if truth is precious regardless of the attempts to falsify and pervert it? I think that when falsehood rears its ugly head, we should cling to truth more tenaciously, not scrap it altogether. The argument that one should scrap Judeo-Christianity because of the violence done in the name of Jesus by liars doesn't work. It is rooted in reducing Christianity down to all of the ugly things that liars have done in Jesus' name with little or no consideration for all the beautiful things people have done (and continue to do) in the name of Jesus. This is a convenient reconstruction of history for Christianity's opponents, but it simply doesn't hold water. If one is going to say that they reject Christianity because of all the evil done in the name of Jesus, then doesn't it suggest that one should be willing to consider it because of all the great things people have done in Jesus' name?

[Todd]

Way to go trublvr!

Brilliantly stated with consideration, love and kindness.

These are the kinds of interchanges that we need more of, with much less anger driven rants and character assaaination attempts, and I'm talking about BOTH sides.

Let's keep it civil.

Burnside. I'm afraid that I've got to call you out on the whole "marriage not dating back to Jesus's days" arguement. In point of fact marriage pre-dates the days when Jesus walked the Earth. As an athiest you probably don't have a Bible (I'm NOT saying this to be cruel) but if you have access to one then look at the back of it for the concordance and look up marriage. You'll find that marriage is found way back in the Old Testament. As a matter of fact Jesus himself referanced marriage in the O.T. in conjunction with his Second Coming, namely Matthew 24:38,39 "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, MARRYING AND GIVING IN MARRIAGE{Emphasis Added} until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of man be."

I say this with all love and kindness, free of venomous anger that only serves to cloud the mind and confuse ones purpose.

Much love to all.

Edited July 10, 2004 by Todd

[BurnSide]

Would it suprise you to discover I do indeed own a bible? It's a good read and i have indeed read it. I believe in making your own opinions about things such as religion, and therefore did read the bible and made my own opinions on it.

I apologise if i was wrong on that, i can't check it now for i am at work.

But i do know for a fact that marriage doesn't go back 10's of thousands of years. Do you believe that marriage has been around as long as humans have been on the earth?

Out of curiosity on the subject, how long do you believe that humans have been on the earth?

[Todd]

It is'nt a complete shock to me that you own a Bible, but I do admit to being mildly surprized. What translation is it if you don't mind my asking? Some are better (Read: more accurate) than others. I have several myself, but the King James translation is the one that I prefer, simply for the poetic language that it offers. And before anyone brings up the specter of accuracy NO major issues of doctrine are affected by the different translations. I've checked.

I'm glad that you did read your Bible, hopefully before any prejudices had already been set in your mind, as I know from personal experience that this can alter your perceptions, especially where the Bible is concerned, as the stakes are so high. I respect the fact that you gave it "the time of day" as many are unwilling to do even that much before formulating a negative opinion of the matter. It seems to me that many of those people are in fact angry with PEOPLE who either considered themselves, or were considered to be, religious. The Bible then is blamed out of hand in a kind of "Guilt by association" fashion, which makes it as easy to reject as the people that they're angry at.

As far as how far "Marriage" goes back, I'm afraid that we'd end up playing a round of "Dueling Semantics", but I will tell you this much; I believe that the IDEA behind marriage does go all the way back to the beginning; the various ceremonies being secondary. Genesis 2:24 says; "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother , and shall cleave unto his WIFE:{Emphasis Added} and they shall be one flesh."

In answer to your question regarding how long I think humans have been on the Earth, I don't think that anyone on Earth knows for sure.

Take care.

[The Nameless One]

This thread will eventually prove my Theory of Theistic Chaos, which I have posted in many other threads before.

TNO

[Falco Rex]

Well I've heard Your theory and I like it. But as to "Proving" a belief to be real on this forum...good luck!

[Novo]

I tend to conlude there is a form of God norman only because of the way the universe operates, I could go into depth here but Im not going to I'll leave it at the fact that all the Gods in all the world have always preached obedience and worship so that they are followed, but greed and power are human traits. whatever created this God forsaken (no pun intended " universe must be wiser then us, for we know only 00.0001 percent of all there is to know in the universe and thats a bogus statement in itself from the very moment I said it the universe has gotten larger, our concepts of gravity are in question now as well, were discovering black matter and far away solar systems, the major thing that has held science back norman is religion (Damnit had to retyped religion 4 times to get it right XD)But now that many people are becoming more open minded and seeing that when you make one cult have enough people to be called a "religion" and another the same but with opposite views what do you think those people are going to go do to the other people? Im dont tend to reply to any more of this because I have found lately leaving doomed threads is better than participating

Ciou-Student&Alive

[Unorthodox Thesis]

Yall are so open minded, you're brains can fall out.

Anyway... As long as you guys heard what the Bible

teaches, thats good enough for me. I was just like...

Do these open minded folk even know what I'm talking

about?... Anyway.. I believe that the bible is the genuine

Word of God. I also believe that the end of the world is

coming soon. The bible says that you know the seasons

by the fruit it bears. When its summer, you know its

warm, and when its winter, you know its cold, and when

its spring, you know that the flowers bloom. Well, I believe

that in less then 20 years, God's wrath will come.

God's wrath? Yes. In the book of revelations it talks about that.

It also talks about the rapture of the church which is an important

event. The true christians who trust in God with their lives will

be caught up in the sky. The sky? Yes the sky. The Angels will

gather us up. Trust me its no alien phenomena... These so called

aliens are really angels, and the folks that'll be left behind will

say that it was a mass abduction. People are already building

bunkers for these events. Well, I don't know when it'll happen.

But if my estimation is right, then its very soon.

[Novo]

odd norman, the man on the street right outside my mothers condo has walked up and down the street every day for the last 4 years saying the same thing.

[aquatus1]

God is going to snatch up all the good little Christians out of harm's way before the apocalypse?

That would be so seriously out of character for God. Since when has He given out freebies before? Everyone I can think of in the bible has had to go through some serious hell (so to speak) before getting a reward from God.

[Fluffybunny]

Well, I don't know when it'll happen.

But if my estimation is right, then its very soon.

They were saying that when Jesus was still alive...Nearly 2000 years later and folks are still falling for it...

[Unorthodox Thesis]

There is no harm in being ready.

[Rakshasas]

As a pagan I`ll be perfectly happy to be left behind

[BurnSide]

In the story of Noahs Ark, your god killed every living Human on the earth save a few.

Nowadays, human population and the people in general are much worse. What makes you think your god is going to save your sorry asses? He DROWNED everyone!! He obviously doesn't care!

[Grandpa Greenman]

As a pagan I`ll be perfectly happy to be left behind

Here, here!!

That will be nice.... Nice peaceful Sundays without bible thumpers knocking at the door. ahhhh pass me a cold one and turn on the race. Darn, the only driver left is Tony Stewart.

Oh well so much for fastasy.

When Jesus said the meek will inharit the Earth, who is he talking about? Who are the Meek?